Can someone lose their salvation?

[FireOnTheAltar]

I love you Zone. Get in the ArK while you can

lol it's funny that you would use that scenerio. I use one very simular:

Imagine you are stranded iin the middle of the ocean. Jesus came by on a boat to save you however all he did was toss you a life perservere attached to a long rope and left you in the water still exposed to the icy cold water, the waves pulling you under ever chance they get, surrounded by man eating sharks and huge deadly jellyfish. To me that's not real salvation.

Real Salvation goes like this... Jesus himself jumps into the water and pulls you aboard the boat to safety. He dries you oFf then washes you clean with warm soothing water and give you brand new clothes to wear. He provides for your needs and welcomes you stay aboard the boat for as long as you like. The only condition is that you stay aboard the boat and out of the water.

However, it's get's even better! Whenever the storms of life roll by and things begin to get hectic out of the deck (surface level) of the boat, He invites you to come deeper into the boat into the captains personal quarters, where you will be safe & dry, protected from the heavy rains an d huge violent waves that could knock you off of the boat if you chose to stay out on the deck. This is called abiding in Christ / Walking in the Spirit.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

"A person who has true faith will never depart. Scripture is clear on this matter." Yes scripture is clear: you CAN lose your faith AND your salvationHeb 6: 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
THOSE THAT OVERCOME WILL NOT LOSE THEIR FAITH:Revelation 3:5
' He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

great verses!

 

[Vladimir_Ukr]

Thank you of all for this conversation.
Anyway we need doing as the Holy Scripture says:
So then, let us not be like others, who
are asleep, but let us be alert and selfcontrolled.
(1st Thessalonians 5:6).
if we doing it, we will never fall.

 

[southern]

My web site www.livinggodministries.info I am Evangelist Johnny Stallings; Full time minister; I am in the proses of writing a commentary on this subject..
Amen....
2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (they were saved by trusting Christ and the Cross), they are again entangled therein, and overcome (proclaims the fact that if the Believer ceases to place his Faith and trust in what Jesus did at the Cross, that entanglement in the pollutions of the world will once again become a fact; it cannot be otherwise), the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. (If Believers reject the Message of the Cross after it is plainly given, there is nothing left but destruction.)
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of Righteousness (Peter is dealing with individuals who have had the privilege to hear the Gospel, accept Christ, and then for whatever reason cease to believe, and, thereby, lose their way), than, after they have known it, to turn from the Holy Commandment delivered unto them. (It’s bad enough to have never known the way. However, to have known it and then turn to another direction is unthinkable. Yet millions have done so. The far greater majority of the modern Church falls into this category. They have abandoned the Cross for other things.)
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true Proverb (Prov. 26:11), The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (This completely refutes the Unscriptural Doctrine of Unconditional Security, and gives the reason—a departure from Christ and the Cross.)

 

[Vladimir_Ukr]

My web site www.livinggodministries.info I am Evangelist Johnny Stallings; Full time minister; I am in the proses of writing a commentary on this subject..
Amen....
2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (they were saved by trusting Christ and the Cross), they are again entangled therein, and overcome (proclaims the fact that if the Believer ceases to place his Faith and trust in what Jesus did at the Cross, that entanglement in the pollutions of the world will once again become a fact; it cannot be otherwise), the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. (If Believers reject the Message of the Cross after it is plainly given, there is nothing left but destruction.)
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of Righteousness (Peter is dealing with individuals who have had the privilege to hear the Gospel, accept Christ, and then for whatever reason cease to believe, and, thereby, lose their way), than, after they have known it, to turn from the Holy Commandment delivered unto them. (It’s bad enough to have never known the way. However, to have known it and then turn to another direction is unthinkable. Yet millions have done so. The far greater majority of the modern Church falls into this category. They have abandoned the Cross for other things.)
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true Proverb (Prov. 26:11), The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (This completely refutes the Unscriptural Doctrine of Unconditional Security, and gives the reason—a departure from Christ and the Cross.)

There all clear and laconic. Its lesson for us. I just want to add
1."Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord,
Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but only he who does the will of my
Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)
2.The sins of some men are obvious,
reaching the place of judgment ahead of
them; the sins of others trail behind
them. (1st Timothy 5:24)
Consequently we can't know all of things but we will know later on the day of judgment.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My web site www.livinggodministries.info I am Evangelist Johnny Stallings; Full time minister; I am in the proses of writing a commentary on this subject..
Amen....
2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (they were saved by trusting Christ and the Cross), they are again entangled therein, and overcome (proclaims the fact that if the Believer ceases to place his Faith and trust in what Jesus did at the Cross, that entanglement in the pollutions of the world will once again become a fact; it cannot be otherwise), the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. (If Believers reject the Message of the Cross after it is plainly given, there is nothing left but destruction.)
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of Righteousness (Peter is dealing with individuals who have had the privilege to hear the Gospel, accept Christ, and then for whatever reason cease to believe, and, thereby, lose their way), than, after they have known it, to turn from the Holy Commandment delivered unto them. (It’s bad enough to have never known the way. However, to have known it and then turn to another direction is unthinkable. Yet millions have done so. The far greater majority of the modern Church falls into this category. They have abandoned the Cross for other things.)
22But it is happened unto them according to the true Proverb (Prov. 26:11), The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (This completely refutes the Unscriptural Doctrine of Unconditional Security, and gives the reason—a departure from Christ and the Cross.)

Forgive me if I disagree with you,

The first group heard the word of truth, the gospel, yet they did not really believe it. Their faith was not in God, it was still in their life they they were not willing to give up. And when they were tempted, they went back to what their heart really wanted.

Yes it will be worst for them in the end. Imagine having known truth and rejecting it. Because the lusts of the world were more important to you. I have seen people like this. they are there for awhile, then they just can hang. As Proverbs says, They were still dogs, They never stopped being Dogs and because of this, went back to what they knew and desired. God knows our hearts. He is not going to save anyone who does not have faith.

Imagine having a lottery ticket that was worth a billion dollars in your hands, And you decided you did not want it because you only had enough money for something else you really wanted. So you did it instead. Then later found out the ticket you had in your hand could have made you financially secure. It would be much worst than not knowing you had a chance to get it. The same will be for the people who had the spiritual ticket to salvation, which was free, yet you did not take it because you wanted somethign else which was more important to you. It will be much worst for you then others who never even looked into it.

For those of us who truly after hearing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. And have faith in it. We are sealed with the spirit of promise until the day of redemption. A seal which is made by God can not be broken by anyone, even ourselves.

 

[zone]

I love you Zone. Get in the ArK while you can

do you really, truly love me?

 

[zone]

"A person who has true faith will never depart. Scripture is clear on this matter." Yes scripture is clear: you CAN lose your faith AND your salvationHeb 6: 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
THOSE THAT OVERCOME WILL NOT LOSE THEIR FAITH:Revelation 3:5
' He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

the passages in Hebrews were spoken to an audience of jews.....some were considering what they heard, some were leaving the old system, to become converted to the Christian faith.

reading the entire passage in context (better yet, the whole Book) one sees the warning is EXACTLY THE SAME WARNING as is given later concerning their forefathers who made it all the way to the entry to the Promised Land but stumbled and complained and wanted to go back to egypt.

the point TO THE HEBREWS was, if they fall back into Judaism there would be no more sacrifice for their sins, since they would crucify Christ afresh (assosiating themselves with the religious leaders and system who hated him and killed him, and back to animal sacrifice), putting Him to any open shame.

IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE, after they had listened to the Good News, seen Jesus placarded amongst them, tasted of the good things (seen it around them, been in the midst of their converted brethren) IF THEY FELL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentence.

this warning PER SE did not apply to gentiles since THEY NEVER HAD MOSES AND THE PROPHETS. the book was to The Hebrews.

it applies today only in that sense: listening to the Gospel and deciding it's not worth it, or not true, or the old life is better: this parallels the parable of the sower (ALSO SPOKEN TO ISRAEL)

re: Revelation: i agree that to overcome means to continue in the Faith, BEING CERTAIN WE ARE IN the faith....THAT WE HAVE SAVING FAITH....that the profession is not shallow.

if someone came up to you today and stuck the barrel of a gun to your head and demanded you renounce Jesus or die: what would you do? if the answer is "I would renounce Jesus", you would be among the cowardly and unbelieving who never believed that though the redeemed died, yet they would live. you would not have believed, as Stephen did, that Christ was right there with you.

 

[zone]

lol it's funny that you would use that scenerio. I use one very simular:

Imagine you are stranded iin the middle of the ocean. Jesus came by on a boat to save you however all he did was toss you a life perservere attached to a long rope and left you in the water still exposed to the icy cold water, the waves pulling you under ever chance they get, surrounded by man eating sharks and huge deadly jellyfish. To me that's not real salvation.

Real Salvation goes like this... Jesus himself jumps into the water and pulls you aboard the boat to safety. He dries you oFf then washes you clean with warm soothing water and give you brand new clothes to wear. He provides for your needs and welcomes you stay aboard the boat for as long as you like. The only condition is that you stay aboard the boat and out of the water.

However, it's get's even better! Whenever the storms of life roll by and things begin to get hectic out of the deck (surface level) of the boat, He invites you to come deeper into the boat into the captains personal quarters, where you will be safe & dry, protected from the heavy rains an d huge violent waves that could knock you off of the boat if you chose to stay out on the deck. This is called abiding in Christ / Walking in the Spirit.

i see.
when did i scorn Christ and jump out of the boat? (maybe i was drunk and don't remember...must have been a blackout cuz i don't even remember being drunk).

please be really specific about where i went wrong. this is a spiritual emergency, and i need to know what must i do to be saved (since i am not now saved)?

when will i know i am saved? will there be signs? please be DETAILED AND SPECIFIC. tell me EVERYTHING.

i thought the apostle john said there was a way we could know we are saved. but maybe that's not what he meant.

are you saved, Fire? i need to know what you did, so i don't make the same deadly error i did the last 8 years (i thought i was saved). i want to be with Jesus and have eternal life. i want to be spared from the wrath to come. i know i am a sinner.

WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?

 

[zone]

Forgive me if I disagree with you,

The first group heard the word of truth, the gospel, yet they did not really believe it. Their faith was not in God, it was still in their life they they were not willing to give up. And when they were tempted, they went back to what their heart really wanted.

Yes it will be worst for them in the end. Imagine having known truth and rejecting it. Because the lusts of the world were more important to you. I have seen people like this. they are there for awhile, then they just can hang. As Proverbs says, They were still dogs, They never stopped being Dogs and because of this, went back to what they knew and desired. God knows our hearts. He is not going to save anyone who does not have faith.

Imagine having a lottery ticket that was worth a billion dollars in your hands, And you decided you did not want it because you only had enough money for something else you really wanted. So you did it instead. Then later found out the ticket you had in your hand could have made you financially secure. It would be much worst than not knowing you had a chance to get it. The same will be for the people who had the spiritual ticket to salvation, which was free, yet you did not take it because you wanted somethign else which was more important to you. It will be much worst for you then others who never even looked into it.

For those of us who truly after hearing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. And have faith in it. We are sealed with the spirit of promise until the day of redemption. A seal which is made by God can not be broken by anyone, even ourselves.

i agree.

EG: you'll find the AoG/Holiness/Pentecostal and Charismatics (like certain other groups we know) are almost all ARMINIANS. not only can we never know if we are redeemed, its up to us to earn or work for our justification, and maintain it by our oh-so-righteous OUTWARD displays of sanctification.

i mean...."don't i SOUND HOLY and righteous? just look at all the things I DO FOR THE LORD!"

many people will claim to stand on the Lord's Promises....all kinds of Promises.
but they have the audacity to say OH NO! even though He sealed that person, (as a King's signet ring) gave them the HOLY SPIRIT, the DOWN PAYMENT, the pledge, the earnest of their inheritence AS A PROMISE of PAYMENT IN FULL LATER, that He will TAKE THAT BACK.

they love to look at people who make false professions, those in the Parable of the Sower, who never HAD SAVING FAITH (ANOTHER GIFT FROM GOD!), and threaten all the others, people they do not know and can not see (internet) with Fire and brimstone and Damnation and the removal of that Holy Pledge granted and sealed in the purchased sinner.

i think it is these puffed up GREAT AND HOLY SERVANTS, the wandering prophets and "minister" of righteousness who breathe out threatenings that should be worried.

 

[zone]

By no means what so ever am I suggesting that one must obey the law.

pardon?

Jesus (the author of our salvation) clearly teaches that we are to "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and stregth"

the above IS THE LAW.

so do you obey the Law or don't you?

do you do it perfectly?

 

[Red33]

the passages in Hebrews were spoken to an audience of jews.....some were considering what they heard, some were leaving the old system, to become converted to the Christian faith.

reading the entire passage in context (better yet, the whole Book) one sees the warning is EXACTLY THE SAME WARNING as is given later concerning their forefathers who made it all the way to the entry to the Promised Land but stumbled and complained and wanted to go back to egypt.

the point TO THE HEBREWS was, if they fall back into Judaism there would be no more sacrifice for their sins, since they would crucify Christ afresh (assosiating themselves with the religious leaders and system who hated him and killed him, and back to animal sacrifice), putting Him to any open shame.

IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE, after they had listened to the Good News, seen Jesus placarded amongst them, tasted of the good things (seen it around them, been in the midst of their converted brethren) IF THEY FELL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentence.

this warning PER SE did not apply to gentiles since THEY NEVER HAD MOSES AND THE PROPHETS. the book was to The Hebrews.

it applies today only in that sense: listening to the Gospel and deciding it's not worth it, or not true, or the old life is better: this parallels the parable of the sower (ALSO SPOKEN TO ISRAEL)

re: Revelation: i agree that to overcome means to continue in the Faith, BEING CERTAIN WE ARE IN the faith....THAT WE HAVE SAVING FAITH....that the profession is not shallow.

if someone came up to you today and stuck the barrel of a gun to your head and demanded you renounce Jesus or die: what would you do? if the answer is "I would renounce Jesus", you would be among the cowardly and unbelieving who never believed that though the redeemed died, yet they would live. you would not have believed, as Stephen did, that Christ was right there with you.

It is so important to understand (Heb 6) in the light of who it is written to and for what purpose. These Jews were being drawn to the Father through Jesus Christ and not through the righteousness of the law, through His once and for all sacrifice for sins and through the blood of His unlimited atonement. They were being drawn and in the process of repentance, turning from what they had trusted, in terms of their own righteousness unto the righteousness of God that came through Christ. They were almost there and were being exhorted to continue on until they could fully come into repentance and believe upon the Son of God.

If they were to fall away, from all that had been ministered to them in this process of repentance, and went back to what that were accustomed and trusted, it would be nearly impossible to renew them and bring them back to that place of repentance that was gradually turning them to the Son. This has an application to the Gentile as well who is also drawn to the Father through the Son. If they reject the lovingkindness and conviction of God through the Holy Spirit and turn back, it would also be impossible to renew them back to a place of repentance. After Esau had sold his birthright, he was rejected and found no place of repentance though he sought it carefully with tears (He 12:17). It is a warning not to spurn the conviction work of repentance through the agency of the Holy Spirit but to continue to cooperate and agree with that work until you can believe.

This is what Peter is referring to in (2Pt 2:20-22)...

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again ; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[zone]

It is so important to understand (Heb 6) in the light of who it is written to and for what purpose. These Jews were being drawn to the Father through Jesus Christ and not through the righteousness of the law, through His once and for all sacrifice for sins and through the blood of His unlimited atonement. They were being drawn and in the process of repentance, turning from what they had trusted, in terms of their own righteousness unto the righteousness of God that came through Christ. They were almost there and were being exhorted to continue on until they could fully come into repentance and believe upon the Son of God.

If they were to fall away, from all that had been ministered to them in this process of repentance, and went back to what that were accustomed and trusted, it would be nearly impossible to renew them and bring them back to that place of repentance that was gradually turning them to the Son. This has an application to the Gentile as well who is also drawn to the Father through the Son. If they reject the lovingkindness and conviction of God through the Holy Spirit and turn back, it would also be impossible to renew them back to a place of repentance. After Esau had sold his birthright, he was rejected and found no place of repentance though he sought it carefully with tears (He 12:17). It is a warning not to spurn the conviction work of repentance through the agency of the Holy Spirit but to continue to cooperate and agree with that work until you can believe.

This is what Peter is referring to in (2Pt 2:20-22)...

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again ; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

but....Red....that would mean one would actually have to read the Book with understanding before ripping verses out of context and using them in one's arsenal against those who have saving faith.

tsk tsk.

you're no fun at all....they'll NEVER accept you at Prophet School, you know.

 

[Red33]

but....Red....that would mean one would actually have to read the Book with understanding before ripping verses out of context and using them in one's arsenal against those who have saving faith.

tsk tsk.

you're no fun at all....they'll NEVER accept you at Prophet School, you know.

I always wondered why they rejected my application and now I know? Thanks Zone, I am in your debt of super-abundant abounding greater grace.

 

[Forgiven66]

Three times in the Gospels we read about the Parable of the Sower, Matthew 13:3-23; Mark 4:3-20; amd Luke 8:3-15. In this parable there are four kinds of seeds. Only one is good, the other three are bad.
From Luke's Gospel we read of the seed by the way side which is definitely bad (Luke 8:5,12). Than we hear of the seed upon a rock (Luke 8:6,13) which are also cleary bad. But the third seed is where I believe we as a church miss it. The seed among thorns, these are bad, but appear at a quick outward glance to us to be good (Luke 8:7,14). For Jesus says of these type of seed "...and bring no fruit to perfection. (Luke 8:14). But the four seed is that which fell on good ground (Luke 8:8,15). Jesus says of these seed "...are they which in and honest and good heart , having heard the word keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience." (Luke 8:15).

If one looks closely at the passage in Hebrews 6:1-12, you will notice very similiar language here. For Hebrews 6:1 speaks of going on to perfection, that is bring fruit with patience (Luke 8:15).
Hebrews 6:7
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessings from God. The true believer in Christ receiveth blessing for the fruit they bring forth. We know that this deals with the heart by reading, Romans 10:9-10 and Luke 8:15.

As for the seed among thorns we read in Hebrews 6:4-6,8 about these seed.
Hebrews 6:8
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing whose end is to be burned.
These are the seeds which bring forth thorns not fruit which will be destroyed by fire.

Jesus tells us in the Sermon on the Mount to be fruit inspectors Matthew 7:15-27.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:20
In Matthew Gospel of the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Jesus speaks of a very similiar action (Matthew 12:31-37).

So if a saint is truly saved, I think that Scripture is clear that they can't lose their salvation (John 10:27-30). Which I'm happy for because if I could lose my salvation I would have many times over.

II Peter 2 goes real good with Matthew 7:15-27; for II Peter 2:1 start out how there where false prophets, so I believe this is dealing with false prophets or if you prefer seed among thorns.

 

[zone]

I always wondered why they rejected my application and now I know? Thanks Zone, I am in your debt of super-abundant abounding greater grace.

hey. just saying what Jesus told me to say.

He talks to me in person everyday, because i have passed through the veil into Holy of Holies and entered His Presence.

you on the other hand, rely on that silly old book.

 

[AnandaHya]

YouTube - East to West by Casting Crowns

It is only through grace and Faith both spiritual Gifts from God that anyone is saved and it is not through anything we have done that one is saved but through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. God gives and takes away material things but NOT salvation (it is the seed that if taken root in the heart can never be lost but not all people allow the seed to take root, sometimes the trials of this life are God's mercy in disguise to get the heart ready and get rid of the stones and thorns to allow the plant to grow) and He does so to keep the heart humble and it is His grace that shows us where and when we fall short of perfection. It is His chastening and those He chastens He treats as children:

Hebrews 12:6-8 (New King James Version)

6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”[a]

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

it is not comfortable and quite painful. Paul tells us this:

Hebrews 12:11 (New King James Version)

11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

though our goal is to be like Jesus Christ, we are more like Paul when he says:

"I have not yet reached my goal, and I am not perfect. But Christ has taken hold of me. So I keep on running and struggling to take hold of the prize."

Philippians 3:12 CEV

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

1 John 1: 1

" For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of GOD, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ"
2 Corinthians 10: 4-5

Romans 3:8-30 (New King James Version)

8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

All Have Sinned


9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:


“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[a]
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;

“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;[c]
14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[d]
15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[e]
18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[f]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
God’s Righteousness Through Faith


21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[g] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Boasting Excluded


27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the passages in Hebrews were spoken to an audience of jews.....some were considering what they heard, some were leaving the old system, to become converted to the Christian faith.

reading the entire passage in context (better yet, the whole Book) one sees the warning is EXACTLY THE SAME WARNING as is given later concerning their forefathers who made it all the way to the entry to the Promised Land but stumbled and complained and wanted to go back to egypt.

the point TO THE HEBREWS was, if they fall back into Judaism there would be no more sacrifice for their sins, since they would crucify Christ afresh (assosiating themselves with the religious leaders and system who hated him and killed him, and back to animal sacrifice), putting Him to any open shame.

IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE, after they had listened to the Good News, seen Jesus placarded amongst them, tasted of the good things (seen it around them, been in the midst of their converted brethren) IF THEY FELL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentence.

this warning PER SE did not apply to gentiles since THEY NEVER HAD MOSES AND THE PROPHETS. the book was to The Hebrews.

it applies today only in that sense: listening to the Gospel and deciding it's not worth it, or not true, or the old life is better: this parallels the parable of the sower (ALSO SPOKEN TO ISRAEL)

re: Revelation: i agree that to overcome means to continue in the Faith, BEING CERTAIN WE ARE IN the faith....THAT WE HAVE SAVING FAITH....that the profession is not shallow.

if someone came up to you today and stuck the barrel of a gun to your head and demanded you renounce Jesus or die: what would you do? if the answer is "I would renounce Jesus", you would be among the cowardly and unbelieving who never believed that though the redeemed died, yet they would live. you would not have believed, as Stephen did, that Christ was right there with you.

This is true. But it goes even deeper than this.

"IF" a conditional statement. "they fall away" what we are not told is if they could fall away, all we are told that if they fall away. then what is the next statement, or the result. "They could never be renewed to repentnace"

The law states that if you sin, Sacrifice must be made to pay for that sin. Going back to law is going back to conditional salvation. If you fall away, you make amends by sacrificing an innocent animal to have that sin redeemed.

Paul is saying"if they fall away " (If it were possible that one could fall away and need to make amends by the sacrificial system) The reality is they could never be renewed to repentance (get saved again). As he said in another passage in this book. They going daily sacrificing sacrifices which can never take away sin. Only one sacrifice is sufficient and that is christs. If his sacrifice does not pay for your sin, you have no hope.

Unfortunately alot of people us this to show one can lose salvation. Yet it actually goes against what they are saying. For if one could fall away, they are doomed forever, there is no renewal to repentance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i agree.

EG: you'll find the AoG/Holiness/Pentecostal and Charismatics (like certain other groups we know) are almost all ARMINIANS. not only can we never know if we are redeemed, its up to us to earn or work for our justification, and maintain it by our oh-so-righteous OUTWARD displays of sanctification.

i mean...."don't i SOUND HOLY and righteous? just look at all the things I DO FOR THE LORD!"

many people will claim to stand on the Lord's Promises....all kinds of Promises.
but they have the audacity to say OH NO! even though He sealed that person, (as a King's signet ring) gave them the HOLY SPIRIT, the DOWN PAYMENT, the pledge, the earnest of their inheritence AS A PROMISE of PAYMENT IN FULL LATER, that He will TAKE THAT BACK.

they love to look at people who make false professions, those in the Parable of the Sower, who never HAD SAVING FAITH (ANOTHER GIFT FROM GOD!), and threaten all the others, people they do not know and can not see (internet) with Fire and brimstone and Damnation and the removal of that Holy Pledge granted and sealed in the purchased sinner.

i think it is these puffed up GREAT AND HOLY SERVANTS, the wandering prophets and "minister" of righteousness who breathe out threatenings that should be worried.

Well the catholic church and the Orthodox churches fall under this category also.

I am reminded of a quote from Jesus himself.

Matt 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

We notice a few things here.

1. These people resemble many of these churches with miracles, casting out demons, healings, tongues etc etc.

2. They claimed to be a part of the church, they call him Lord Lord.

3. Christ NEVER KNEW THEM. This is important,. because if someone was once truly saved, then lost his or her salvation by "falling away" then Christ would have lied by saying this. Because at one thime they were a part of the church, And Christ knew them as their child

This is what a works based gospel will bring to many who think they are saved. .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Three times in the Gospels we read about the Parable of the Sower, Matthew 13:3-23; Mark 4:3-20; amd Luke 8:3-15. In this parable there are four kinds of seeds. Only one is good, the other three are bad.
From Luke's Gospel we read of the seed by the way side which is definitely bad (Luke 8:5,12). Than we hear of the seed upon a rock (Luke 8:6,13) which are also cleary bad. But the third seed is where I believe we as a church miss it. The seed among thorns, these are bad, but appear at a quick outward glance to us to be good (Luke 8:7,14). For Jesus says of these type of seed "...and bring no fruit to perfection. (Luke 8:14). But the four seed is that which fell on good ground (Luke 8:8,15). Jesus says of these seed "...are they which in and honest and good heart , having heard the word keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience." (Luke 8:15).

If one looks closely at the passage in Hebrews 6:1-12, you will notice very similiar language here. For Hebrews 6:1 speaks of going on to perfection, that is bring fruit with patience (Luke 8:15).
Hebrews 6:7
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessings from God. The true believer in Christ receiveth blessing for the fruit they bring forth. We know that this deals with the heart by reading, Romans 10:9-10 and Luke 8:15.

As for the seed among thorns we read in Hebrews 6:4-6,8 about these seed.
Hebrews 6:8
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing whose end is to be burned.
These are the seeds which bring forth thorns not fruit which will be destroyed by fire.

Jesus tells us in the Sermon on the Mount to be fruit inspectors Matthew 7:15-27.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:20
In Matthew Gospel of the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Jesus speaks of a very similiar action (Matthew 12:31-37).

So if a saint is truly saved, I think that Scripture is clear that they can't lose their salvation (John 10:27-30). Which I'm happy for because if I could lose my salvation I would have many times over.

II Peter 2 goes real good with Matthew 7:15-27; for II Peter 2:1 start out how there where false prophets, so I believe this is dealing with false prophets or if you prefer seed among thorns.

I think there is an even better passage that goes hand in hand with this passage in Hebrews.

1 cor 3:

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

This goes perfectly with this in hebrews:

Hebrews 6:7
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessings from God. (blessings being reward)

15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

This goes perfectly with this in Hebrews:

Hebrews 6:8
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing whose end is to be burned.

Notice the two paralelles.

1. The first signify reward

2. The second signify no reward. But the one who did not recieve reward was still saved. Hebrews states they were "NEAR" to being cursed. But not cursed. Corinthians states they were still SAVED, but through the fire.

This also proves hebrews is NOT STATING one can lose salvation.