Can someone lose their salvation?

[eternally-gratefull]

For the record, Irresistable Grace represents the letter "I" in the Calvinistic anology T.U.L.I.P. While I have met good Christian Calvinists out there, most Christian intellectuals who exalt knowledge over the love for lost souls. Seeing as they believe most people are predestined for hell, they can become very unfriendly to those who do not agree with their beliefs. So much so, that shortly after the Protestant Reformation , Calvinism replaced Catholcism as the religious bully on the block by performing their own brand of Inquisitions & Executions.

Believe it or not primitive Baptists were Arminian in their beliefs until they came under heavty fire by the Calvinistists. It was then that they beggan to adopt Cavinistic ideals rather than be burned at the stake. That compromise, along with a few others, is what has lead to the phrase of "once saved alwats saved". However, the current concept of OSAS was not born until the mid 1950's / 1960's when several men gather at Dallas Theological Seminary and began to lay down the foundations of the Modern Baptist\ faith. Unfortunately they decided to adopt and fuse two very controversial concepts from two very different, almost oppostire belief systems: Preserverance of the Saints from Calvinism and Carnal Christianity (which is not a desired state of being according to the Holiness) from the Holiness faith. Once fused and adopted, they began preaching that a person could be saved in sin while still enslaved by sin and that they could never lose their salvation. Thus rebellious sinners are not only saved, they are uncontionally secure, a concept which was neber preached or accepted up until that point as well as rejected by every other religious belief system including Calvinism.

the sad part is that niether calvin or arminian were correct in all their points. they both have grave errors in their theology.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

You are way off here.

Rom 7:14

We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey, whether YOU ARE SLAVES TO SIN WHICH LEADS TO DEATH, or to obediance which leads to righteousness

Rom 6:15&16

So, according to your understanding of Rom ch 7, Paul by what he says in ch 6 is living a life that leads to death, not one of obediance that leads to righteousness, therefore Paul is doomed

I will await your further understanding and explanation of these verses, I am sure you will not disappoint me!

RED33, you have broken the cardinal rule, you have pulled scripture out of context. You can not read Romans chapter 7 without reading Romans Chapter 8. In chapter 7 Paul talks about how man in and of himself can not save himself, also known as depravity (the sin nature). However, in Chapter 8 Paul boldly declares that through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, believers are given the strength to overcome our depravity thus the sin nature no longer dominates but rather the Holy Sapirit now dominates for those who choose to submit to His workings in our lives.

What you teach is a "bi-polar" form of christianity. That all a believer is or ever will be at best is nothing but a sinner saved by grace. That's not entirely true. While we may be so in the beginning of our walk with God, the Holy Spirit gives us the strength and the wisdom to put the deeds of the flesh to death thus we become overcomers. Keep in mind that it is overcomers who are given a garment of white and who inherit the kingdom in the book of Revelation, not carnal christians.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

the sad part is that niether calvin or arminian were correct in all their points. they both have grave errors in their theology.

True yet so do once saved always saved Baptists as well as most mainline modern denominations. I have yet to find one who doesn't favor certain scripture thus neglecting / violating others in process. We must embrace the whole book, in context.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

True yet so do once saved always saved Baptists as well as most mainline modern denominations. I have yet to find one who doesn't favor certain scripture thus neglecting / violating others in process. We must embrace the whole book, in context.

Well I am once saved always saved. And I am not baptist. People who believe one can lose salvation do the very thing you say the baptists do. Just like licentious people who believe one can say a few words and magically they are saved forever and do not have to change their life do.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Well I am once saved always saved. And I am not baptist. People who believe one can lose salvation do the very thing you say the baptists do. Just like licentious people who believe one can say a few words and magically they are saved forever and do not have to change their life do.

Other churches have adopted the concept over time. Calvary Chapel is one example. Also in the south you're now seeng many Once Saved Always saved Baptists adopting Pentecostalism thus we are seeing a fusion of ideals that a person can be saved in sin as well as manifest spiritual behavior. Talk about a potential recipe for disaster!

 

[zone]

How many believers have been befuddled by (Rom 7:15-21)...

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would , that do I not; but what I hate , that do I . 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is , in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do . 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Paul is keeping himself separate from his sin nature and is blaming it for that things that he allows and does that are no good but evil and has also concluded that even when he does good evil is present with him. What do you think he meant in (Rom 7:23) ...

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
.

tsk...didn't read far enuff.
beat me to it

 

[livingbygrace]

For those new to the faith or those who are not Christians and seek truth rather than beliefs driven by the mind of man,

Rom ch 7

Verses 1-3

Paul is giving an illustration of dying to the law

verses 4-6

Explaining that the Christian dies to the law so that they can live for God, and bear fruit for God. Also Paul explains that the sinful passions in us are aroused(made greater) by the law


verses 7-11

Paul gives a personal account from his own live of how sin used the law to arouse all kinds of sinful passions in him and condemn him

verse 12

Paul affirms the ,aw is Holy asnd good, but sin produced death in him through that which is good

verses 14-25

Paul is speaking of the consequences for him of being under the law. Paul speaks very differently concerning sin in chs 6& ch 8

We know this is true because of his opening words in verse 14

We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin

If ch 7: 14-25 concerns Paul's life as a Christian, he is heading for death according to his words in ch 6

In ch7 he says he is a slave to sin, in ch 6 he says if someone is a slave to sin this leads to death, but obediance leads to righteousness.

In ch 8 Paul says
Those controlled by the sinful nasture cannot please God verse 8

Therefore if Paul is still a slave to sin ch 7 verse 14 he cannot please God

ch 8 verse 13

If you live according to the sinful nature you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body you will live

But if Paul is speaking of his life as a Christian in ch 7 he is condemned, because in ch 7 he was a slave to sin,

You will now hear some wonderful theology and man made arguments to dismiss this post, you have been warned!!!

BTW

No-one is speaking here of being perfect in the flesh (just in case it was suggested I meant this)

But you do not have to be perfect in the flesh for sin to not be your master.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Well I am once saved always saved. And I am not baptist. People who believe one can lose salvation do the very thing you say the baptists do. Just like licentious people who believe one can say a few words and magically they are saved forever and do not have to change their life do.

I personally do not believe that one can unknowingly lose their salvation. As for the idea that some who willingly forfiets their salvation was never saved in the first place, I don't buy that just yet. However, I can completely understand how one could say that if a person had ever experienced a true life changing encounter with the Lorrd, that person would never turn away.

Lord knows I've messed up in the past and the Lord was always there to pick me up and dust me afterward. I hoenestly believe that poor discipleship is the cause for people turning away from God not that these people were never saved in the first place. I fell the reason why sop many walk away is that they struggle with some sin issues and feel that they could never overcome them in their own strength. While it's true that they can't overcome in their ownm strength, they've never been taught how to rely on and rest in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[zone]

For the record, Irresistable Grace represents the letter "I" in the Calvinistic anology T.U.L.I.P. While I have met good Christian Calvinists out there, most Christian intellectuals who exalt knowledge over the love for lost souls..

mkay. are we to tally up the lost souls we have love for? you start.

i'm not "of Calvin": but anyone reasonably familiar with what irresistable grace means (and does NOT mean), should ask themselves how they feel toward their wives (if they are truly in love with their wives). do you find your wife irresistable?

how about Jesus? do you find Him irresistable?

now....if God purposed from the beginning to send His Son to DIE in our place, is His Gracious drawing of us to Jesus IMPOTENT?

what does this mean?:

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Seeing as they believe most people are predestined for hell,.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Romans 3:10
as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

Luke 23:40
But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?

Psalm 143:2
Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.

Job 4:17
‘Can mortal man be in the right before God? Can a man be pure before his Maker?

John 9:41
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

they can become very unfriendly to those who do not agree with their beliefs. So much so, that shortly after the Protestant Reformation , Calvinism replaced Catholcism as the religious bully on the block by performing their own brand of Inquisitions & Executions.

that's true.
i don't get along well with hyper-cals.

i wonder though: you are an american, correct?
when you vote, did you give your consent to, say the killing and displacement of 1/2 of the innocent Iraqi citizenry? or any of the other "arab" nations now being targeted? because of CIA/MI6 created "radical islam"?

in the name of religion? just because you may not have pulled the trigger, if you are waving Old Glory and rejoicing in these wars (crusades), are you not also guilty to some degree?

Believe it or not primitive Baptists were Arminian in their beliefs until they came under heavty fire by the Calvinistists. It was then that they beggan to adopt Cavinistic ideals rather than be burned at the stake. That compromise, along with a few others, is what has lead to the phrase of "once saved alwats saved". However, the current concept of OSAS was not born until the mid 1950's / 1960's when several men gather at Dallas Theological Seminary and began to lay down the foundations of the Modern Baptist\ faith. Unfortunately they decided to adopt and fuse two very controversial concepts from two very different, almost oppostire belief systems: Preserverance of the Saints from Calvinism and Carnal Christianity (which is not a desired state of being according to the Holiness) from the Holiness faith. Once fused and adopted, they began preaching that a person could be saved in sin while still enslaved by sin and that they could never lose their salvation. Thus rebellious sinners are not only saved, they are uncontionally secure, a concept which was neber preached or accepted up until that point as well as rejected by every other religious belief system including Calvinism.

what silliness.
you're talking about fringe elements from both sides.

assurance is Biblical. Arminianism is not.
and the Holiness movement has its own bizarre background (Wesley et el) : i.e.: Second Baptism (which...do you believe in?)

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

For those new to the faith or those who are not Christians and seek truth rather than beliefs driven by the mind of man,

Rom ch 7

Verses 1-3

Paul is giving an illustration of dying to the law

verses 4-6

Explaining that the Christian dies to the law so that they can live for God, and bear fruit for God. Also Paul explains that the sinful passions in us are aroused(made greater) by the law


verses 7-11

Paul gives a personal account from his own live of how sin used the law to arouse all kinds of sinful passions in him and condemn him

verse 12

Paul affirms the ,aw is Holy asnd good, but sin produced death in him through that which is good

verses 14-25

Paul is speaking of the consequences for him of being under the law. Paul speaks very differently concerning sin in chs 6& ch 8

We know this is true because of his opening words in verse 14

We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin

If ch 7: 14-25 concerns Paul's life as a Christian, he is heading for death according to his words in ch 6

In ch7 he says he is a slave to sin, in ch 6 he says if someone is a slave to sin this leads to death, but obediance leads to righteousness.

In ch 8 Paul says
Those controlled by the sinful nasture cannot please God verse 8

Therefore if Paul is still a slave to sin ch 7 verse 14 he cannot please God

ch 8 verse 13

If you live according to the sinful nature you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body you will live

But if Paul is speaking of his life as a Christian in ch 7 he is condemned, because in ch 7 he was a slave to sin,

You will now hear some wonderful theology and man made arguments to dismiss this post, you have been warned!!!

BTW

No-one is speaking here of being perfect in the flesh (just in case it was suggested I meant this)

But you do not have to be perfect in the flesh for sin to not be your master.

Great stuff! I for one do not advocate any form of Christian perfection either, There is only one who is perfect and His name is Jesus. It appears to me that the only one here boasting some form of perfection is Zone & Red33, a form of perfect bi-polar salvation where a believer can not sin because God ignores sin after salvation which has no scriptural basis what so ever. If that were true there would be no need for sanctification which scripture advocates in great detail.

However, I do present the truth that the vast majority of sin that believers commit is a choice and could be avoided if they understand that grace is greater than just the forgiveness of passt mistakes. The is what is commonly referred to in scripture as CONSECRATION, choosing to set oneself apart for the purposes of God rather than fullfill the desires of the flersh. I believe that Consecration is what we give to God and Sanctification is the reward He gives to us in return in exchamnge for faith.

 

[zone]

RED33, you have broken the cardinal rule, you have pulled scripture out of context. You can not read Romans chapter 7 without reading Romans Chapter 8. In chapter 7 Paul talks about how man in and of himself can not save himself, also known as depravity (the sin nature). However, in Chapter 8 Paul boldly declares that through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, believers are given the strength to overcome our depravity .

DEPRAVITY? are you of Calvin?

thus the sin nature no longer dominates but rather the Holy Sapirit now dominates for those who choose to submit to His workings in our lives.

What you teach is a "bi-polar" form of christianity. That all a believer is or ever will be at best is nothing but a sinner saved by grace. That's not entirely true. While we may be so in the beginning of our walk with God, the Holy Spirit gives us the strength and the wisdom to put the deeds of the flesh to death thus we become overcomers. Keep in mind that it is overcomers who are given a garment of white and who inherit the kingdom in the book of Revelation, not carnal christians.

huh? the new man has 2 natures? that's bi-polar.
wow.
so....if you die with ONE SIN to your account, will you get a white garment? no....you won't.

Revelation 12:11
They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

 

[livingbygrace]

What you teach is a "bi-polar" form of christianity. That all a believer is or ever will be at best is nothing but a sinner saved by grace. That's not entirely true. While we may be so in the beginning of our walk with God, the Holy Spirit gives us the strength and the wisdom to put the deeds of the flesh to death thus we become overcomers. Keep in mind that it is overcomers who are given a garment of white and who inherit the kingdom in the book of Revelation, not carnal christians.

It would not say much for the cross of Christ and the victory won at calvary if God saved man only to leave him as a slave to sin and feeling a miserable wretch would it? (Rom ch 7)

There would be no power seen in the cross of Christ to deliver, and the Holy Spirit would be seen as weak and ineffective, leaving the believer enslaved to sin

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

There would be no power seen in the cross of Christ to deliver, and the Holy Spirit would be seen as weak and ineffective, leaving the believer enslaved to sin.

My sentiments exactly. I believe this is why sexual immorality, divorve, doubt, anxiety, fear (just to name a few) is so common among modern believers. I also bel;ieve this is why we see so few conversions as well as why prayer is seldomm answered according to 1 John 3: 19-24.

The proof that this is happening is all around us. The church looks no different than the world insttead looking like the church in scripture. Neither God nor the biblical standard has changed over the centuries. The only thing that has changed is that the church has embraced compromise it it has been rendered ineffective because of it.

 

[zone]

Great stuff! I for one do not advocate any form of Christian perfection either, There is only one who is perfect and His name is Jesus. It appears to me that the only one here boasting some form of perfection is Zone & Red33, a form of perfect bi-polar salvation where a believer can not sin because God ignores sin after salvation which has no scriptural basis what so ever. If that were true there would be no need for sanctification which scripture advocates in great detail.

However, I do present the truth that the vast majority of sin that believers commit is a choice and could be avoided if they understand that grace is greater than just the forgiveness of passt mistakes. The is what is commonly referred to in scripture as CONSECRATION, choosing to set oneself apart for the purposes of God rather than fullfill the desires of the flersh. I believe that Consecration is what we give to God and Sanctification is the reward He gives to us in return in exchamnge for faith.

r-i-i-i-g-ht.
so, i consider myself perfect....yet i sin like the devil....do i believe i am made perfect in sin? not computing.

(why again? exactly why am i sinning so much? because i can? because it's fun? because God ignores it?....how come i'm perfect but a rank sinner?)

i have never said i am perfect, and i have never said its cool and okay to sin.

i won't give my testimony here...you'd probably not believe it anyways.
suffice to say i know what OVERCOMING SIN by the Power and Grace of Christ is...easy? no way. possible in Him? absolutely.

but, i still fall short, and am all too aware of it.

(btw: your theology rings Wesleyan and Finneyesque...i ask again: do you believe in a Second Baptism which imparts righteousness and Holiness and burns away any sin in the spirit of the redeemed sinner, so now he just makes mistakes?)...sorry to be bother over the question, but i just want to be sure of what you really believe.

thanks.

 

[zone]

It would not say much for the cross of Christ and the victory won at calvary if God saved man only to leave him as a slave to sin and feeling a miserable wretch would it? (Rom ch 7)

There would be no power seen in the cross of Christ to deliver, and the Holy Spirit would be seen as weak and ineffective, leaving the believer enslaved to sin

this guy needs a rest.

 

[HeavenwithinYOU]

No offense but in my opinion Christ does what HE wants when He wants, but it says I HAVE NOT LOST ONE THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN ME FATHER.... so no.. BUT.. JESUS WILL punish SEVERELY those who HE HAS chosen who do not bring members into the kingdom. BUT FIRST, we must first SEEK and FIND the kingdom ourselves... MANY miss this.... hear me out friend, just please, hear me out: LINK ---> YouTube - Jesus Christ Testimony, Finding Jesus Christ, Jesus loves you.

 

[Red33]

It is not good to quote the verses you have and give the examples you do concerning the discussion you are involved in here, it is done with dishonesty as you well know the issue in question and your verses are not relevant to that

Is Jesus Christ, who shed His blood and paid for our sins through His death, burial and resurrection any different after we have been saved by grace through faith then when we were being drawn to Him for salvation?

We are instructed by the Holy Spirit to the following in (Col 2:6,7)...

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught , abounding therein with thanksgiving.

We received the Lord Jesus Christ by grace through faith for salvation (Eph 2:8,9). This is what the scriptures teach us through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I am thankful that we can continue to walk in the grace of God that brought us God's great salvation, the forgiveness and cleansing of sin and complete justification that can not be nullified by any personal sin. This grace that we receive does not encourage us in sin but encourages us in the faith of Jesus Christ and to walk in the light without condemnation or any striving in the flesh.

If we looked at repentance as something that we are granted by grace (Ats 5:31, 11:18) instead of some mood of sincerity that we feel we must be exercised in, we would then see the goodness of God and not feel like we need to condemn or accuse others of antinomianism or have to make things right through a repentance that comes from guilt in the conscience and not from the conviction of the Holy Spirit through grace. The Holy Spirit is a Spirit of grace and conviction (Heb 10:29, Jn 6:18).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I personally do not believe that one can unknowingly lose their salvation. As for the idea that some who willingly forfiets their salvation was never saved in the first place, I don't buy that just yet.

A person who willingly walks away from Christ, is a person who would be called an antichrist.

John speaks of this issue. It is he who states they were never of us (saved) it is not just a believe I cam up with. John makes it clear. those who depart departed to prove they were never of us.

However, I can completely understand how one could say that if a person had ever experienced a true life changing encounter with the Lorrd, that person would never turn away.

I don't even agree with this. One can be a prodigal son. They have turned away, but they are still children. who went into the world, Yet God brings them back when they lose everything they left with. I was one of these before I know how hard Gods chastening can be to bring on back. But this is not the same as a person who walks away and does not believe anymore. Or as a friend of mine says, Gives God the finger and says I don;t believe you anymore., That would be antichrist. And john states they never were saved.

Lord knows I've messed up in the past and the Lord was always there to pick me up and dust me afterward. I hoenestly believe that poor discipleship is the cause for people turning away from God not that these people were never saved in the first place. I fell the reason why sop many walk away is that they struggle with some sin issues and feel that they could never overcome them in their own strength. While it's true that they can't overcome in their ownm strength, they've never been taught how to rely on and rest in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I agree. But remember there is a difference between a prodigal son (who is still a son by the way0 And a person who walks away and no longer believes.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It would not say much for the cross of Christ and the victory won at calvary if God saved man only to leave him as a slave to sin and feeling a miserable wretch would it? (Rom ch 7)

There would be no power seen in the cross of Christ to deliver, and the Holy Spirit would be seen as weak and ineffective, leaving the believer enslaved to sin

There is no power because there was no true repentnace. And thus no true salvation. All you had was lip service.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

I couldn't help but notice both zone & Red 33 jumped on my last comments. I can't read their posts so I just thought I'd clarify on a point I made earlier so that they can not attempt to use my words against me.

Yes I do believe that Christ's finished work on the cross is indeed perfect for the remission of sins and the redemption of those who believe Without it, none of us have hope. However, I believe that scripture teaches that the work of salvation is both a finished work and on ongoing process. It is both the finished work on the cross as well as the work of the Spirit in our lives, not the work of men. The reason why God did so is for the sake of relationship with us so that we would learn to place our trust in him and how to fellowship with him. That was His entire purpose of creating mankind in the first place, RELATIONSHIP.