Can someone lose their salvation?

[eternally-gratefull]

"But among you there must not be a hint of sexual immorality or any kind of impiurity or of greed, because those are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscernity, foolish talk or coarse joking which are out of place but rather thanksgiving
For of this you can be sure, no immoral, impure or gredy person-such a man is an idolator has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God
LET NO-ONE DECEIVE YOU WITH EMPTY WORDS, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobediant

Eph 5:3-6

In that list is says there must be no himt of sexual immorality. In the passage I have often quoted from 1 Cor ch 6 it lists drunkards as one of the types of people who will not inherit eternal life
And yet when I ask you if a person who constantly, ceaselessly for ten years after a claimed conversion gets drunk and has constant affairs is in a saved state, you mostly refuse to answer, when you do you suggest they in all probability are"

Let's ask this same question to a lesser extreme ? Is somebody that struggles with any sin after ten years in a saved state ? How about five years ? Is somebody that struggles with envy or lust after five years in a saved state ? Let's use two years. Is somebody that struggles with anger after two years in a saved state ? Is anybody that struggles with any of the "minor sins" after one year in a saved state ? Are any of us that "still sin" in any manner in a saved state ?

Struggling with sin is not the issue or the question. We all struggle with sin. The man in question showed no change in life. it was not one sin. He still lived as he did before. Had no desire to read Gods word. "has never read it if I get it right, Which means he probably never steps foot in a church. for if he did, he would read it with the pastor.

The question is not just a sin habit. it is a lifestyle of sin, and a lifestyle of not having a thing to do with God. A HUGE difference!

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

So your saying repentance is not required? Well I guess I know where your licentious belief comes from. How can one have faith without repenting?

1. Scripture says we were Gods enemy. How can we go from being an enemy of God to trusting him without repenting (Changing our minds)
2. Scripture says nothing good comes from us. Our thoughts are totally evil. How can we come to trust God that this is true unless we repent?
3. Human wisdom and understanding is at enmity with God, we do not believe him, (when he says we are sinners) and we do not trust him (we should be able to save ourselves) so how can we come to him without repenting?

Scriptural support:

John the Baptist told the jews that had to repent to recieve their messiah. He refused to baptise anyone who did nt show fruits of repentance.

Jesus said he came to call sinners to repentance.

Many times in the NT remission of sin is aligned with repentance. Thus one can not happen without the other.

Jesus is luke 13 said it plainly "unless you repent you will likewise parish"

Peter says in in acts 2 we must repent if we want to have remission of sin.

Acts 3 says repent and be converted that your sin may be blotted out

Acts 21 says repentance towards god and faith are together/.

Paul tells us Godly sorrow leads to repentance. which in turn leads to salvation.

Peter tells us God is willing that nopne should parish, but all should come to repentance.

If one does not repent thay can't have faith. That is why the licentious gospel is so evil and wrong. One who does not repent will not show a changed life because they are still livin gin their old way and old live/. They are still at enmity with God. They still believe they have done no wrong, which is why they still sin and live as they did before. All they did was give lip service. And James and Jude make it clear. They turn the GRACE of God to licentiousness. Who's condemnation was long before assured.

No wonder you won't answer the question about the man who claimed salvation but lived a licentious lifestyle. He did not have to repent to be saved. So he could go on living like he did, and God will still save him. This is a lie from hell.

Exactly, Red believes in a hypothetical grace which has no real power to save anyone. True grace transforms lives. It has to because that is it's sole purpose.

Romans 10:3 – “Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.”

 

[livingbygrace]

"But among you there must not be a hint of sexual immorality or any kind of impiurity or of greed, because those are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscernity, foolish talk or coarse joking which are out of place but rather thanksgiving
For of this you can be sure, no immoral, impure or gredy person-such a man is an idolator has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God
LET NO-ONE DECEIVE YOU WITH EMPTY WORDS, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobediant

Eph 5:3-6

In that list is says there must be no himt of sexual immorality. In the passage I have often quoted from 1 Cor ch 6 it lists drunkards as one of the types of people who will not inherit eternal life
And yet when I ask you if a person who constantly, ceaselessly for ten years after a claimed conversion gets drunk and has constant affairs is in a saved state, you mostly refuse to answer, when you do you suggest they in all probability are"

Let's ask this same question to a lesser extreme ? Is somebody that struggles with any sin after ten years in a saved state ? How about five years ? Is somebody that struggles with envy or lust after five years in a saved state ? Let's use two years. Is somebody that struggles with anger after two years in a saved state ? Is anybody that struggles with any of the "minor sins" after one year in a saved state ? Are any of us that "still sin" in any manner in a saved state ?

Much of my belief concerning this has many times already been written, but out of courteousness to you I will try my best to once again tell you what I believe. All I ask is that you then do me the courtesy of replying honestly to one simple question I will ask of you

While we were yet without strength Christ died for the ungodly
Rom 5:6

When we come to Christ we are as yet without strength. Much sin/wrong in our lives we can ourselves immediately stop, sin that does not wrap itself tightly around us, but what of the deep rooted sin that we ourselves cannot stop?

We have a salvation that is not based on the law/being good enough, but by faith in Christ, our one and only righteousness for Heaven. And it is faith in Christ that will set us free of that which binds us, but it takes time.
At this early stage after conversion all a person can do is to look tpo Christ and trust him to deliver them from deep rooted sin in their life they in their heart are desperate to be free from. They are desperate to be free because the good laws of God He would have them keep have been written on their hearts and minds, meaning that in their hearts they want to live as God would have them live
The battle is not to give up with God, believing you are too much of a sinner to be saved. And while you are standing in faith, our one and only righteousness for Heaven much will be evident in a converts life that needs to be dealt with.

BUT if someone stands by faith in Christ, and earnestly trusts him to deliver them from that which binds them HE MUST DO IT. And over time the convert will see much victory in their life over sin(if they are sincere). If we querstion whether this will happen we must question whether the cross of Christ carries power and authority to deliver people from sin.
For becasue a person is living by faith in Christ and not under law, sin shall not be their master. That is what is plainly written in the Bible. Does this mean we will be perfect in the flesh? No! We all foul up and we are constantly being changed for the duration of our time on this earth


To address your specific question

I am quite sure the 'head theologists' will be aghast at my next comments

But Paul is clear. There is sin that if not dealt with in our lives will mean we cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven. Please read
1 Cor 6:9&10
Gal 5:19-21
Eph 5:3-7

If you do not agree with this please take it to God, I did not write the Bible

Are we upon conversion immediately expected to be free of sins that Paul says if constanmtly committted(which is what I take them to mean) will mean we can not inherit eternal life? No!

But do you not believe that when we come to God through Christ He will deal with our sin/wrong in order of priority?

Now as for impurity

I believe Paul was speaking of wrong relationships ie adultery, affairs etc, he made that clear in other scripture given. There must be no hint of this

The man who was sleeping with his Father's wife was to be put out of the church 1 Cor ch 5

Of course we all as individuals struggle with lustful thoughts etc, and trials and temptations are the lot of the Christian, the Bible is clear about that, but the more we are willing for Christ to change us, the more he will, but we will never be free of temptaion, but as we grow we are expected to resist temptation as we become stronger in the faith

And incidentally, Spurgeon believed that we would have sin in our life until the day we die that we should bemoan the fact we have, but if certain sin was not dealt with it would be fatal for us

Now to my question to you
The verses I quoted that you have replied to were put up for one reason

I have many times put to Red the following

A person IMMEDIATELY after a claimed conversion and for the next ten years constantly, ceaselessly has affairs, gets drunk, beats their wife and does not read a Bible, are they in a saved state?

Now I know you and I disagree on whether Christ is God Himself, but this is a different subject and I am just asking you to be honest from your heart, not reply with a 'head theology' of scripture

If a person came to your church and claimed a salvation experiance and you saw them night after night get drunk, if you knew that they were having affairs one after the other while coming to church, fellowshipping with you and proffessing they were a Christian, and if you knew this man constantly beat his wife and did not read a Bible, what would you discern concerning his salvation if this went on constantly for ten years, and I KNOW you would have an opinion.

Because I have been to churches for thirty years and never met anyone who would believe such a person could possibly be in a saved state.

And to defend the truth of the Gospel, this should be made plain to the congregation
So as I have answered your question as best I can please answer mine

In your opinion is the man in question in a saved state, yes or no?

 

[livingbygrace]

Struggling with sin is not the issue or the question. We all struggle with sin. The man in question showed no change in life. it was not one sin. He still lived as he did before. Had no desire to read Gods word. "has never read it if I get it right, Which means he probably never steps foot in a church. for if he did, he would read it with the pastor.

The question is not just a sin habit. it is a lifestyle of sin, and a lifestyle of not having a thing to do with God. A HUGE difference!

I put those verses up to show the absurdity of Red's position concering the question constantly put to him that he mainly refuses to answer

Yes we all struggle with tempation and sin, but I believe when Paul says there must not be a hint of impurity he is refering to adultery/affairs, which I suggest God would very quickly stop in a new converts life as they trusted in Christ. Surely God would deal with things in order of priority, and having affairs, committing adultery would be right at the top I would imagine. This does not mean the person is free of impure thoughts, I think we have to understand what is being said in context here

 

[Red33]

When they heard this they had no further objections and praised God saying. 'So then, God has granted evn the Gentiles repentance unto life
Acts 11:18

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation

2 Cor 7:10

Repent then and turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out
Acts 3:19

But unless you repent you too will all perish
Luke 13:3

Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is near
Matt 3:2

But among you there must not be a hint of sexual immorality or any kind of impiurity or of greed, because those are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscernity, foolish talk or coarse joking which are out of place but rather thanksgiving
For of this you can be sure, no immoral, impure or gredy person-such a man is an idolator has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God
LET NO-ONE DECEIVE YOU WITH EMPTY WORDS, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobediant

Eph 5:3-6

In that list is says there must be no himt of sexual immorality. In the passage I have often quoted from 1 Cor ch 6 it lists drunkards as one of the types of people who will not inherit eternal life
And yet when I ask you if a person who constantly, ceaselessly for ten years after a claimed conversion gets drunk and has constant affairs is in a saved state, you mostly refuse to answer, when you do you suggest they in all probability are

You have a Christianity that is not based on the plain truth of scripture. This is becasue of vanity and pride. You ream off your scriptures, sometimes with oratory skill, but it means nothing for it comes from a heart full of pride and one that just wants to be esteemed as a teacher, preacher of God's word.

You should in your heart seek the glory for God but you do not I am afraid. And you teach/preach an unbiblical message that will appeal to some

And please do not complain at my words. I have never said you are condemned, possessed by the spirit of antichrist or a heretic
But I do weep for those taken in by your smooth words and false humility

What you fail to see in the scriptures concerning Christ is that He did not come to judge or condemn sinners but to seek and save them (Lk 19:10)...

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Jn 3:17,18 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved . 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned : but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn 12:47,48 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken , the same shall judge him in the last day.

Rom 14:12,13 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

1Cor 11:31,32 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged . 32 But when we are judged , we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Lk 6:36,37 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. 37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged : condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned : forgive , and ye shall be forgiven :

Jm 4:11,12 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. 12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy : who art thou that judgest another?

1Cor 4:4,5 For I knowhttp://christianchat.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-b nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified : but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come , who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

If that 'strawman' is a sinner and has demonstrated that sin in many different ways, then be constrained by the love of God and go to that sinner and have compassion on him and give him the gospel of Christ, who took his sins and was slaughtered as a lamb to suffer the penalty of death for his sins. Love that man and give him grace and reveal to him the mercy of God. Don't judge him as a sinner because he has already been judged as one and if he professes to be saved then give him more grace and minister Christ to him as God's ambassador. We have been given a word and ministry of reconciliation and not judgment.

We can all see this man and judge him a sinner because all have sinned but to reveal to this man the nature of the life of God that came through His Son, is to reveal the purpose for which Christ came, to save the lost and call sinners to repentance. We have all gone astray and there are none that doeth good, no not even one. You can do the will of God and do good to this sinful man by giving him the same grace and mercy that God gave you when you were dead in your trespasses and sins. Whether this man, who was living in sin, was saved or not, we still have a ministry of reconciliation toward him as we do toward all sinners.

We are not here to judge but to lay our life down as Christ did for us and be merciful as our Father in heaven is merciful. I see Jesus Christ befriending sinners of every kind but not once do I see him asking any of His disciples whether they thought that this or that man was a sinner because of how they lived. Wouldn't it be wonderful for this 'strawman' to come to his senses and cry out to God to be merciful to him as a sinner? This is the effect that those who have received reconciliation from God have upon people who are sinners, they are gracious and compassionate and merciful.

Ps 103:1-12 Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. 2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: 3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; 4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; 5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's. 6 The LORD executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed . 7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel. 8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. 9 He will not always chide : neither will he keep his anger for ever. 10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. 11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. 12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have a few questions to ask myself. This is directed at those who believe salvation can be lost.

1. Paul says to the church of corinth that how we as Gods children build our foundation will be tried by fire. Some will recieve reward (Gold silver precious stones. Others will suffer loss (wood hay and straw) But he makes it clear. Those who suffer loss will still be saved. But as though he escaped through fire. What would cause a person to suffer loss and be in this state where his reward is ALL burnt?


2. Paul tells the corinthians he should be feeding them meat and they should be teaching others. But he must treat them as babes still feeding them wth only milk. Why? What was the corinthian church doing that left them in this state? We know they were saved. Paul called them "brothers in Christ"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I put those verses up to show the absurdity of Red's position concering the question constantly put to him that he mainly refuses to answer

Yes we all struggle with tempation and sin, but I believe when Paul says there must not be a hint of impurity he is refering to adultery/affairs, which I suggest God would very quickly stop in a new converts life as they trusted in Christ. Surely God would deal with things in order of priority, and having affairs, committing adultery would be right at the top I would imagine. This does not mean the person is free of impure thoughts, I think we have to understand what is being said in context here

Well I disagree here. The David example simply responds to this issue. David might have confessed his affair, rape and murder. But he still lived a sexually immoral lifestyle. How many wifes did he have?

Also. Read my question I just posted about the corinthian church. What were their main issues?

Yes paul said that sexually immoral people will not inherit the kingdom of god. But he followed it by saying "as such were some of you, but you have been washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." He never told them they stopped doing this sin, He made a statement about their standing with God.

Again. What is the difference in God's eyes between sexual sin, and say a habitual liar? Scripture makes it clear, if you break even the least of the law, you are guilty of the whole law (as far as condemnation goes) It is human nature to place sin in a chart with some evil, and some not so bad. But God says ALL SIN is unrighteousness. And all sin leads to death.

 

[livingbygrace]

Well I disagree here. The David example simply responds to this issue. David might have confessed his affair, rape and murder. But he still lived a sexually immoral lifestyle. How many wifes did he have?

But did God tell David he could not have more than one wife? Jesus said that God allowed men to divorce their wives in the OT by a letter of dismissal because of their hard hearts, but that was not God's intention for man and wife, sorry if you think thast is deviatiing
Also. Read my question I just posted about the corinthian church. What were their main issues?

Yes paul said that sexually immoral people will not inherit the kingdom of god. But he followed it by saying "as such were some of you, but you have been washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." He never told them they stopped doing this sin, He made a statement about their standing with God.
But Paul made clear in many places that if people lived certain lifestyles they could not inherit the kingdom of God, I am only repeating what he wrote

Again. What is the difference in God's eyes between sexual sin, and say a habitual liar? Scripture makes it clear, if you break even the least of the law, you are guilty of the whole law (as far as condemnation goes) It is human nature to place sin in a chart with some evil, and some not so bad. But God says ALL SIN is unrighteousness. And all sin leads to death.

What do you make of 1 Cor 6:9&10
Gal 5:19-21
Eph5:3-7
Spurgeon said that we would all have sin to mourn over until the day we died, but certain sin if not dealt with would prove fatal

 

[livingbygrace]

What you fail to see in the scriptures concerning Christ is that He did not come to judge or condemn sinners but to seek and save them (Lk 19:10)...

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Jn 3:17,18 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved . 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned : but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn 12:47,48 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken , the same shall judge him in the last day.

Rom 14:12,13 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

1Cor 11:31,32 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged . 32 But when we are judged , we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Lk 6:36,37 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. 37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged : condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned : forgive , and ye shall be forgiven :

Jm 4:11,12 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. 12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy : who art thou that judgest another?

1Cor 4:4,5 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified : but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come , who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

If that 'strawman' is a sinner and has demonstrated that sin in many different ways, then be constrained by the love of God and go to that sinner and have compassion on him and give him the gospel of Christ, who took his sins and was slaughtered as a lamb to suffer the penalty of death for his sins. Love that man and give him grace and reveal to him the mercy of God. Don't judge him as a sinner because he has already been judged as one and if he professes to be saved then give him more grace and minister Christ to him as God's ambassador. We have been given a word and ministry of reconciliation and not judgment.

We can all see this man and judge him a sinner because all have sinned but to reveal to this man the nature of the life of God that came through His Son, is to reveal the purpose for which Christ came, to save the lost and call sinners to repentance. We have all gone astray and there are none that doeth good, no not even one. You can do the will of God and do good to this sinful man by giving him the same grace and mercy that God gave you when you were dead in your trespasses and sins. Whether this man, who was living in sin, was saved or not, we still have a ministry of reconciliation toward him as we do toward all sinners.

We are not here to judge but to lay our life down as Christ did for us and be merciful as our Father in heaven is merciful. I see Jesus Christ befriending sinners of every kind but not once do I see him asking any of His disciples whether they thought that this or that man was a sinner because of how they lived. Wouldn't it be wonderful for this 'strawman' to come to his senses and cry out to God to be merciful to him as a sinner? This is the effect that those who have received reconciliation from God have upon people who are sinners, they are gracious and compassionate and merciful.

Ps 103:1-12 Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. 2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: 3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; 4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; 5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's. 6 The LORD executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed . 7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel. 8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. 9 He will not always chide : neither will he keep his anger for ever. 10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. 11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. 12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

What you fail to see is that upon a SINCERE conversion God changes lives by faith in his son. He does not leave people wallowing in anguish in their sin

But you will NEVER accept what I write, no matter how much scripture I put up for you cannot admit to any error can you? You believe you are a beacon light to others and have been raised up as a teacher/preacher oif God's word, so how could you admit to being wrong, it would take much humility to do that

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But did God tell David he could not have more than one wife? Jesus said that God allowed men to divorce their wives in the OT by a letter of dismissal because of their hard hearts, but that was not God's intention for man and wife, sorry if you think thast is deviatiing

The law told david he could not have more than one wife. Thus David lived in sexual imorality his entire life.

But Paul made clear in many places that if people lived certain lifestyles they could not inherit the kingdom of God, I am only repeating what he wrote

What does the kingdom of God consist of. When is it? Jesus said it is at hand what did he mean. What benefits does one get in the kingdom?

What do you make of 1 Cor 6:9&10

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Did he say they stopped their sexual sin?

Gal 5:19-21

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Living in flesh vs livin gin the spirit. Paul also said if we set our minds on the spirit we will nto fullfill lusts of the flesh (these things spoken of here) meaning a christian most certainly can do those things.

again I ask. What is the kingdom of God. this will answer your question.

Eph5:3-7

has to do again with kingdom of God. so same response.

Spurgeon said that we would all have sin to mourn over until the day we died, but certain sin if not dealt with would prove fatal

yet according to scripture ALL sin is fatal. We look at sin from man's eyes. Not from Gods perspective. All sin, no matter what we think of it. Seperates us from God. Adam and eve did nothign but eat a fruit. And it caused them death, us death, and all the evil we have in the world today. So why would we think that there are "lesser sins" which are much less evil in the eyes of God that others? This is a false viewpoint.

 

[Red33]

So your saying repentance is not required? Well I guess I know where your licentious belief comes from. How can one have faith without repenting?

1. Scripture says we were Gods enemy. How can we go from being an enemy of God to trusting him without repenting (Changing our minds)
2. Scripture says nothing good comes from us. Our thoughts are totally evil. How can we come to trust God that this is true unless we repent?
3. Human wisdom and understanding is at enmity with God, we do not believe him, (when he says we are sinners) and we do not trust him (we should be able to save ourselves) so how can we come to him without repenting?

Scriptural support:

John the Baptist told the jews that had to repent to recieve their messiah. He refused to baptise anyone who did nt show fruits of repentance.

Jesus said he came to call sinners to repentance.

Many times in the NT remission of sin is aligned with repentance. Thus one can not happen without the other.

Jesus is luke 13 said it plainly "unless you repent you will likewise parish"

Peter says in in acts 2 we must repent if we want to have remission of sin.

Acts 3 says repent and be converted that your sin may be blotted out

Acts 21 says repentance towards god and faith are together/.

Paul tells us Godly sorrow leads to repentance. which in turn leads to salvation.

Peter tells us God is willing that nopne should parish, but all should come to repentance.

If one does not repent thay can't have faith. That is why the licentious gospel is so evil and wrong. One who does not repent will not show a changed life because they are still livin gin their old way and old live/. They are still at enmity with God. They still believe they have done no wrong, which is why they still sin and live as they did before. All they did was give lip service. And James and Jude make it clear. They turn the GRACE of God to licentiousness. Who's condemnation was long before assured.

No wonder you won't answer the question about the man who claimed salvation but lived a licentious lifestyle. He did not have to repent to be saved. So he could go on living like he did, and God will still save him. This is a lie from hell.

With all this high decibel excitement and dogmatism, have you repented concerning ALL of your sins? Did you do that when you accepted and called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation? The only confession with the mouth I see in (Rom 10:9) is confessing the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead, those that do shall be saved? I don't see repentance there or even in the entire gospel of John.

Have you sinned in any of those sins that you since repented of? If you have, did you repent again? If you truly repented of all your sins why have you failed in any of those sins you repented of? If repenting of sin is to change your mind about the sin you have been guilty of, then why would you fail even one time if you had change your mind and forsook your sin? If you say you have never failed in any sin you have repented of, I will call you a liar or tell you that there are more sins in your life that you HAVE NOT repented of then you HAVE repented of. The good news is that Jesus Christ has been already judged for your sin and has put away ALL your sin by burying it in the sea of forgetfullness. Do you compare yourself with other believers in relationship to their sin and judge them accordingly?

Do you have or harbour sin in your heart, against anyone, that you have not repented of, such as sins of the tongue (Ps 39:1), or presumption against another (Ps 19:13), mental attitude sins and sins of omission, meaning things that you should have done but did not do (Jm 4:17)? Have you thought evil of any man (1Cor 13:5) and not repented of that evil? Have you lived without faith at any time in your life because whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:23)? Just how much sin have you really repented of that has been acceptable God and revealed a transformation of the grace of God? I guarantee you as we speak that their is sin your heart, LOTS OF IT, that you have NO CAPACITY to even be able to repent, because the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Do you want me to prove to you just how wicked your heart is? Just let me know.

 

[livingbygrace]

The law told david he could not have more than one wife. Thus David lived in sexual imorality his entire life.

What does the kingdom of God consist of. When is it? Jesus said it is at hand what did he mean. What benefits does one get in the kingdom?

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Did he say they stopped their sexual sin?

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Living in flesh vs livin gin the spirit. Paul also said if we set our minds on the spirit we will nto fullfill lusts of the flesh (these things spoken of here) meaning a christian most certainly can do those things.

again I ask. What is the kingdom of God. this will answer your question.


has to do again with kingdom of God. so same response.

yet according to scripture ALL sin is fatal. We look at sin from man's eyes. Not from Gods perspective. All sin, no matter what we think of it. Seperates us from God. Adam and eve did nothign but eat a fruit. And it caused them death, us death, and all the evil we have in the world today. So why would we think that there are "lesser sins" which are much less evil in the eyes of God that others? This is a false viewpoint.

OK, I will answer the poiint generally. This is the problem when we are simply driven by 'head theology' of certain scripture

Someone sits next you in church, you know they are a Christian, you believe they are, yet you know they are not perfect, but they are saved because Christ died for them on the cross. They have sin in their life as they are not perfect in the flesh, sometimes they may take one step back and two steps forward, but in your heart you believe they are saved, Hallelujah

The next wek someone sits next to you in church(I know this is an extreme example but it makes the point) You know that for the last six weeks they have murdered someone each week, yet they claim to be a Christian

What do you in your heart think?

Do you say, I know they are saved because it is all about faith in Christ, not the law/persional goodness? No you wouldn't, neither would any other Christian I have ever met.

We cannot have a theology of the head based on certain scripture, it does not work like that.

If you were honest from your heart if someone came to your church and constantly displayed some sin you would in your heart question their salvation, whereas other sin you would not.

People may say 'therologically' this is terrible but in effect it is what Paul, and also Spurgeon believed based on Biblical teaching

If we do not believe this, then Paul must have expected everyone to be perfect in the flesh to get to Heaven, based on the scripture I put before you

 

[Red33]

I can say this with all honesty before the Lord this day, I don't not know of a single person that was saved by repenting of their sins but I know plenty that were saved by believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ who died and shed His blood for them and their sins. As they grew in grace and knowledge of Christ and received the love of God, they forsook, little by little, those sins and that lifestyle of sin they had in the world. They learned what it means to be transformed through the process of being renewed in their mind by the word, by grace and with the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

With all this high decibel excitement and dogmatism, have you repented concerning ALL of your sins? Did you do that when you accepted and called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation? The only confession with the mouth I see in (Rom 10:9) is confessing the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead, those that do shall be saved? I don't see repentance there or even in the entire gospel of John.

Have you sinned in any of those sins that you since repented of? If you have, did you repent again? If you truly repented of all your sins why have you failed in any of those sins you repented of? If repenting of sin is to change your mind about the sin you have been guilty of, then why would you fail even one time if you had change your mind and forsook your sin? If you say you have never failed in any sin you have repented of, I will call you a liar or tell you that there are more sins in your life that you HAVE NOT repented of then you HAVE repented of. The good news is that Jesus Christ has been already judged for your sin and has put away ALL your sin by burying it in the sea of forgetfullness. Do you compare yourself with other believers in relationship to their sin and judge them accordingly?

Do you have or harbour sin in your heart, against anyone, that you have not repented of, such as sins of the tongue (Ps 39:1), or presumption against another (Ps 19:13), mental attitude sins and sins of omission, meaning things that you should have done but did not do (Jm 4:17)? Have you thought evil of any man (1Cor 13:5) and not repented of that evil? Have you lived without faith at any time in your life because whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:23)? Just how much sin have you really repented of that has been acceptable God and revealed a transformation of the grace of God? I guarantee you as we speak that their is sin your heart, LOTS OF IT, that you have NO CAPACITY to even be able to repent, because the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Do you want me to prove to you just how wicked your heart is? Just let me know.

Your mistaken here. I never stated one must repent from a personal sin. I am saying one must repent about all the things I posted. Why are you stuck on sin. Read what I posted and try again. You did not respond to what I said

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK, I will answer the poiint generally. This is the problem when we are simply driven by 'head theology' of certain scripture

Someone sits next you in church, you know they are a Christian, you believe they are, yet you know they are not perfect, but they are saved because Christ died for them on the cross. They have sin in their life as they are not perfect in the flesh, sometimes they may take one step back and two steps forward, but in your heart you believe they are saved, Hallelujah

The next wek someone sits next to you in church(I know this is an extreme example but it makes the point) You know that for the last six weeks they have murdered someone each week, yet they claim to be a Christian

What do you in your heart think?

Do you say, I know they are saved because it is all about faith in Christ, not the law/persional goodness? No you wouldn't, neither would any other Christian I have ever met.

We cannot have a theology of the head based on certain scripture, it does not work like that.

If you were honest from your heart if someone came to your church and constantly displayed some sin you would in your heart question their salvation, whereas other sin you would not.

People may say 'therologically' this is terrible but in effect it is what Paul, and also Spurgeon believed based on Biblical teaching

This also did not properly respond to what I said. i asked what the kingdom is. are we in it now? This will answer your questions. we agree on a licentious person not being saved, I am not asking this. I am responding to a person who struggles with sexual sin. or other sins you said will not inherit the kingdom of God. which is a separate issue.

does it means they can't be saved? Lose their salvation? or merely will not inherit the kingdom?

 

[livingbygrace]

This also did not properly respond to what I said. i asked what the kingdom is. are we in it now? This will answer your questions. we agree on a licentious person not being saved, I am not asking this. I am responding to a person who struggles with sexual sin. or other sins you said will not inherit the kingdom of God. which is a separate issue.

does it means they can't be saved? Lose their salvation? or merely will not inherit the kingdom?

As I told someone else on cc I never discuss OSAS on Christian websites, the reason being inevitable answers will affect some weak in the faith, so if you wish to discuss that you will I am afraid need to discuss it with others

And I directly quoted Paul concerning people who will not inherit the kingdom of God concerning committting certain sin

OK A person struggles with sexual sin. Don't you think the question asked should be, will God deliver a person from the need to commit adultery or have affairs? I believe He will

Now, if a Christian one night sleeps with someone and then regrets it and comes before God in deep repentance of course God will forgive them
If you ask me if a person has multiple affairs for years on end are they saved, I would in my heart question whether they are saved as I am sure you would also and would every other Christian I have ever met

I do not believe a person who constantly has affairs is in a saved state. For if they were sincere they would have earnestly trusted Christ to set them free from the need to have continual affaiors and he would have done it. This is what Red fails to appreciate

I can only refer you again to what Paul repeatedly said on certain issues

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As I told someone else on cc I never discuss OSAS on Christian websites, the reason being inevitable answers will affect some weak in the faith, so if you wish to discuss that you will I am afraid need to discuss it with others

And I directly quoted Paul concerning people who will not inherit the kingdom of God concerning committting certain sin

OK A person struggles with sexual sin. Don't you think the question asked should be, will God deliver a person from the need to commit adultery or have affairs? I believe He will

Now, if a Christian one night sleeps with someone and then regrets it and comes before God in deep repentance of course God will forgive them
If you ask me if a person has multiple affairs for years on end are they saved, I would in my heart question whether they are saved as I am sure you would also and would every other Christian I have ever met

I do not believe a person who constantly has affairs is in a saved state. For if they were sincere they would have earnestly trusted Christ to set them free from the need to have continual affaiors and he would have done it. This is what Red fails to appreciate

I can only refer you again to what Paul repeatedly said on certain issues

Yes, You talked about what Paul said. But are you refusing to talk about what he meant? Your the one who brought it up. How can one respond to what he meant if you are unwilling to discuss it.

If we do not know what the kingdom of God is. We will not understand what Paul said.

Did he mean eternal life. Or did he mean the kingdom here on earth. Where one receives reward and blessing here. Or does not receive reward and blessing here. But chastisement. There is a HUGE difference between the two. One has eternal consequences. One is temporal unhappiness and not recieving the blessings God wants to give us here on earth. But does not have eternal consequences as far as damnation is concerned.

Again. You brought it up.

 

[livingbygrace]

Yes, You talked about what Paul said. But are you refusing to talk about what he meant? Your the one who brought it up. How can one respond to what he meant if you are unwilling to discuss it.
I don't believe I have refused to discuss anything. Let me quote what Paul wrote

Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, nor theives nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers will inherit the kingdom of God
1 Cor 6:9&10

Forgive me if I am slow on the uptake but no-one I have ever discussed this with has questioned what Paul meant here. If a person will not inherit the kingdom of God they will not go to Heaven, do you disagree with this?

If we do not know what the kingdom of God is. We will not understand what Paul said.

Did he mean eternal life. Or did he mean the kingdom here on earth. Where one receives reward and blessing here. Or does not receive reward and blessing here. But chastisement. There is a HUGE difference between the two. One has eternal consequences. One is temporal unhappiness and not recieving the blessings God wants to give us here on earth. But does not have eternal consequences as far as damnation is concerned.

Again. You brought it up.

I believe etrnal life is at stake if these issues are not dealt with in a persons life. Why do I say this? Becasue Paul plainly wrote it, and as I have said Spurgeon believed it to. So I believe on this issue as does Spurgeon

In Ephesians Paul says that such behaviour will will mean a person cannot have any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ or of God

 

[zone]

Struggling with sin is not the issue or the question. We all struggle with sin. The man in question showed no change in life. it was not one sin. He still lived as he did before. Had no desire to read Gods word. "has never read it if I get it right, Which means he probably never steps foot in a church. for if he did, he would read it with the pastor.

The question is not just a sin habit. it is a lifestyle of sin, and a lifestyle of not having a thing to do with God. A HUGE difference!

first: i disagree with Red's last summary on repentence (confessing our sins to The Lord) in the life of a believer: i do not know why he chose to word it that way. he'll either leave it at that or choose to restate it: that's up to him. BUT I KNOW WHAT HE MEANS and why he said it.

and nobody says you have to like Red, or agree. he and i do not on many things.

but don't claim the Gospel he preaches is antinomian EG - its IS NOT and never has been: you're looking at 6 months of jabbering over a single non existent man....and that man has nothing to do with Red believing in licentiousness. i've NEVER seen him say any such thing. i've had enough issues with him if wanted to go against him this would be a good time to do it. but no.

he is being MISREPRESENTED here.

the original heart of the matter is not that strawman: its that some people like and believe in and are enamoured with modern day prophets and prophetesses, especially those who prophesy doom against the church; some people despise church; some people say the Bible is not sufficient..etc. that's how this whole thing started. some of us have been here long enough to have seen it.

~

with that said, MY how the Strawman's personality and lifestyle has developed since yesterday!

on a separate note:
EG or anyone:

could you please be detailed in telling me how king david's particular sins (which occurred over more than 9 months) concerning Bathsheba and Uriah and God are any different from the stupid strawman who keeps morphing into satan himself?

and...was king david was capable of such sin all along, or did the devil make him do it?

i need to see ANYPLACE in scripture where God makes exceptions for sins, or considers the sins of some nothing while others are condemned.

forget the strawman. let's use Biblical people OURSELVES.

thank you.

 

[zone]

"But among you there must not be a hint of sexual immorality or any kind of impiurity or of greed, because those are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscernity, foolish talk or coarse joking which are out of place but rather thanksgiving
For of this you can be sure, no immoral, impure or gredy person-such a man is an idolator has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God
LET NO-ONE DECEIVE YOU WITH EMPTY WORDS, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobediant

Eph 5:3-6

In that list is says there must be no himt of sexual immorality. In the passage I have often quoted from 1 Cor ch 6 it lists drunkards as one of the types of people who will not inherit eternal life
And yet when I ask you if a person who constantly, ceaselessly for ten years after a claimed conversion gets drunk and has constant affairs is in a saved state, you mostly refuse to answer, when you do you suggest they in all probability are"

Let's ask this same question to a lesser extreme ? Is somebody that struggles with any sin after ten years in a saved state ? How about five years ? Is somebody that struggles with envy or lust after five years in a saved state ? Let's use two years. Is somebody that struggles with anger after two years in a saved state ? Is anybody that struggles with any of the "minor sins" after one year in a saved state ? Are any of us that "still sin" in any manner in a saved state ?

exactly Fester.
how quickly we seem to forget WHERE WE CAME FROM!
and when we last sinned.
and what it felt like to confess it.

of course, there are some who no longer sin.
they got the SECOND HOLY GHOST BAPTISM, or they are being deified through their church's mysterious sacraments.