Can We Eliminate the Divide Between Calvinism and Arminianism?

[NayborBear]

@NayborBear

Hi, NayborBear -

Perhaps, in your eyes, or the "eyes of men", or supposed "men of God" are concerned.
Nope ... the OP stands as valid strictly on the basis of no one responding to my OP with a convincing and compelling rebuttal.

But? There can NOT be any RECONCILIATION betweenst these 2 sides!
What is the basis for this claim?

Where the one side wishes to go, where "free will" is not acceptable?
I am not sure what you are asking here.

While the other side is where "free will" doesn't EXIST!
I am not convinced that two people who disagree with each other on the topic of "free will" cannot enjoy fellowship with one another in Christ.

In your theory? NO FLESH WILL BE SAVED!
I have no theory about flesh being saved.

I can't force you to see how God works in a person's life, and how He arranges one's life situation into accepting His grace!
Not my job! That's HIS!
I can only tell you, that He indeed does!
The fact that you don't give 2 hoots concerning God's wanting (at least) some flesh be saved? Speaks more to me about your wanting to be right! Irregardless of what God wants.
In your world, or at least in your "thoery?" There are NO elect!
Therefore? You cannot know how God "Micro-manages" ones', chosen to be elect!
Many are called! Few, are chosen!

 

[garee]

@garee

Hi, garee -

In regard to the prophecy of Isaiah as fulfilled. If prophecy is a curse it is to unbelievers of all nations as a forward nation "no faith".
Okay ... so, here I'll have to disagree with you, because the text of Isaiah specifically identifies "Israel" as the object toward which the prophecy was directed. The mention of "Israel" in the Isaiah text was explicitly referenced in my OP.

It would appear you are trying to direct this in respect to flesh of a nation as if God was a respecter of the lumps of clay he forms Christ in.

All Israel are not born again Christians .The new name he name His bride, the church.

God used faithless Israel as a example or poster child of unbelief (no faith that comes from hearing God alone) ) of any nation throughout the old testament. .Its why the time of reformation came .The veil is rent

God removed that which was standing in the Holy place, the unseen place of God and restored the government of His church to a time period before kings were in Israel . When men and woman had equal status as prophets and Judges sent of God (apostles ). And were not under the rule of that which the eyes see like the Pagan nations they became jealous of and demanded God give them a object (king)so they to like the Pagan nations could walk by sight after the oral traditions of men ..This shows they had "no faith" as a froward nation. Not little faith, none nada.zip .

The gospel is not about the flesh of any nation. Even the Son of man Jesus replied His flesh profits for nothing.

If his flesh profits for nothing and will not, cannot enter the new heavens and earth .Why would we wrestle against flesh and blood and hope it could profit for something?

 

[Grandpa]

@garee

Hi, garee -

In regard to the prophecy of Isaiah as fulfilled. If prophecy is a curse it is to unbelievers of all nations as a forward nation "no faith".
Okay ... so, here I'll have to disagree with you, because the text of Isaiah specifically identifies "Israel" as the object toward which the prophecy was directed. The mention of "Israel" in the Isaiah text was explicitly referenced in my OP.

Romans 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Hmmm... There seems to be a little dilemma in your proposed theology that you aren't thinking through.

Which Israel is Isaiah speaking of when it identifies Israel?

Physical, children of the flesh, Israel?

Or, the children of God Spiritual Israel?


Have you read Romans 9 and tried to see the dilemma it places on your proposed "theology"? Or do you just try to make all scripture fit your proposed ideas?

 

[John146]

Romans 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Hmmm... There seems to be a little dilemma in your proposed theology that you aren't thinking through.

Which Israel is Isaiah speaking of when it identifies Israel?

Physical, children of the flesh, Israel?

Or, the children of God Spiritual Israel?


Have you read Romans 9 and tried to see the dilemma it places on your proposed "theology"? Or do you just try to make all scripture fit your proposed ideas?

Actually, this passage is pointing to the seed line through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God chose Issac, who is the child of promise, over Ishmael who is of the flesh.

This passage is all about the Jews and how God chose them to birth the seed and all the blessings God gave that nation. The Church has not replaced the nation of Israel.

 

[Grandpa]

Actually, this passage is pointing to the seed line through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God chose Issac, who is the child of promise, over Ishmael who is of the flesh.

This passage is all about the Jews and how God chose them to birth the seed and all the blessings God gave that nation. The Church has not replaced the nation of Israel.

Those scriptures are telling you that there is a Physical Israel of the Flesh and a Spiritual Israel that is Elect of God.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;


Nothing ever replaces Spiritual Israel. But the promises to Spiritual Israel don't apply to physical Israel. And we are grafted in as Spiritual Israel by Christ when we are elect of God and come to Christ.

So, really, the "Church" always was Israel and physical Israel was not always Israel.

 

[John146]

Those scriptures are telling you that there is a Physical Israel of the Flesh and a Spiritual Israel that is Elect of God.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;


Nothing ever replaces Spiritual Israel. But the promises to Spiritual Israel don't apply to physical Israel. And we are grafted in as Spiritual Israel by Christ when we are elect of God and come to Christ.

So, really, the "Church" always was Israel and physical Israel was not always Israel.

God’s elect is Jesus Christ, Isaiah 42. He came through the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

God’s church in the OT was the physical nation of Israel. God’s NT Church is the body of Christ.

 

[garee]

God’s elect is Jesus Christ, Isaiah 42. He came through the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

God’s church in the OT was the physical nation of Israel. God’s NT Church is the body of Christ.

The physical nation of Israel has nothing to do with the gospel. Jesus said clearly His flesh profits for nothing. Christian is the new promised name the Holy Spirit named his bride in Acts..

The word Christian with no other meaning added simply means; "residents of the heavenly city of Christ" prepared as his eternal chaste virgin bride, the church.

Revelation 21 King James Version (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[garee]

Romans 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Hmmm... There seems to be a little dilemma in your proposed theology that you aren't thinking through.

Which Israel is Isaiah speaking of when it identifies Israel?

Physical, children of the flesh, Israel?

Or, the children of God Spiritual Israel?


Have you read Romans 9 and tried to see the dilemma it places on your proposed "theology"? Or do you just try to make all scripture fit your proposed ideas?

I would think he was speaking to the multitude of Israel (inward born of the Spirit of Christ and outward Jew ) The ones that had the Spirit of Christ and the ones that did not. One was given ears the other refused to believe. Its how Christ spoke in a parable .He speaks to all and some hear and beleive.

 

[Grandpa]

God’s elect is Jesus Christ, Isaiah 42. He came through the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

God’s church in the OT was the physical nation of Israel. God’s NT Church is the body of Christ.

"Gentiles" don't just elect themselves to be the seed of Abraham.

Only those who God has chosen, the elect, are the ones who come to Christ and are the Children of God.


Gods church in the OT *APPEARED* to be the physical nation of Israel to those who didn't know better.

Romans 11:3-5
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[xjohnson]

Romans 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Hmmm... There seems to be a little dilemma in your proposed theology that you aren't thinking through.

Which Israel is Isaiah speaking of when it identifies Israel?

Physical, children of the flesh, Israel?

Or, the children of God Spiritual Israel?


Have you read Romans 9 and tried to see the dilemma it places on your proposed "theology"? Or do you just try to make all scripture fit your proposed ideas?

@Grandpa

Hi, Grandpa -

Hmmm... There seems to be a little dilemma in your proposed theology that you aren't thinking through.
Okay … what specifically is the dilemma in my thesis?

Which Israel is Isaiah speaking of when it identifies Israel?
In Isaiah’s book the following identifiers are used for Israel:

• My people (Isaiah 1:3)
• Sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters (Isaiah 1:4)
• My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the descendants of Abraham My friend (Isaiah 41:8)
• House of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel (Isaiah 48:1)

The identifiers mentioned above are broad enough to incorporate all members of the society of that day. So, if you hold the perspective that both physical and spiritual Israel existed at the time of Isaiah’s ministry, then Isaiah is using the word “Israel” as a reference to both groups.

Physical, children of the flesh, Israel?
Yes.

Or, the children of God Spiritual Israel?
Yes.

Have you read Romans 9 and tried to see the dilemma it places on your proposed "theology"?
Approximately two months ago I completed a study of Romans 9, and I am unaware of dilemmas the text places on my thesis.

Or do you just try to make all scripture fit your proposed ideas?
No such attempts are/were made.

 

[Grandpa]

@Grandpa

Hi, Grandpa -

Hmmm... There seems to be a little dilemma in your proposed theology that you aren't thinking through.
Okay … what specifically is the dilemma in my thesis?

Which Israel is Isaiah speaking of when it identifies Israel?
In Isaiah’s book the following identifiers are used for Israel:

• My people (Isaiah 1:3)
• Sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters (Isaiah 1:4)
• My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the descendants of Abraham My friend (Isaiah 41:8)
• House of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel (Isaiah 48:1)

The identifiers mentioned above are broad enough to incorporate all members of the society of that day. So, if you hold the perspective that both physical and spiritual Israel existed at the time of Isaiah’s ministry, then Isaiah is using the word “Israel” as a reference to both groups.

Physical, children of the flesh, Israel?
Yes.

Or, the children of God Spiritual Israel?
Yes.

Have you read Romans 9 and tried to see the dilemma it places on your proposed "theology"?
Approximately two months ago I completed a study of Romans 9, and I am unaware of dilemmas the text places on my thesis.

Or do you just try to make all scripture fit your proposed ideas?
No such attempts are/were made.

If it includes the Children of God Spiritual Israel then that is Christians who have been grafted in.

Galatians 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Romans 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[garee]

@Grandpa

Hi, Grandpa -

Hmmm... There seems to be a little dilemma in your proposed theology that you aren't thinking through.
Okay … what specifically is the dilemma in my thesis?

Which Israel is Isaiah speaking of when it identifies Israel?
In Isaiah’s book the following identifiers are used for Israel:

• My people (Isaiah 1:3)
• Sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters (Isaiah 1:4)
• My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the descendants of Abraham My friend (Isaiah 41:8)
• House of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel (Isaiah 48:1)

The identifiers mentioned above are broad enough to incorporate all members of the society of that day. So, if you hold the perspective that both physical and spiritual Israel existed at the time of Isaiah’s ministry, then Isaiah is using the word “Israel” as a reference to both groups.

Physical, children of the flesh, Israel?
Yes.

Or, the children of God Spiritual Israel?
Yes.

Have you read Romans 9 and tried to see the dilemma it places on your proposed "theology"?
Approximately two months ago I completed a study of Romans 9, and I am unaware of dilemmas the text places on my thesis.

Or do you just try to make all scripture fit your proposed ideas?
No such attempts are/were made.

God has given many names to represent those whom he has elected from the foundation of the world .This is before any were born or did evil, or blessed God by performing his will. Christian is the last name He promised called his elected bride.. Salvation has nothing to do with the flesh of any nation. Even Christ said of His own Hebrew flesh it profits for nothing.

Many are called from every nation few have been chosen from the foundation of the world . Its like Christianity all Christians are not born again .They have a name that is associated with eternal life but do not have the Spirit of Christ like the example in Revelation 3:1

Write this to the angel of the church in Sardis:These are the words of the one who holds God’s seven spirits and the seven stars: I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, and you are in fact dead.
.Revelation 3:1

I think a person could exchange the word Jew in the passages below for the word Christian .Seeing as new creatures we are lovingly commanded not to know any man after the flesh

Revelation 2:9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.