Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Actually, no, your reply doesn't address the questions I posed.
Certain individuals, such as infants in the womb or those who die shortly after birth, lack the capacity to reason and cannot contemplate abstract spiritual concepts central to eternal life and death. These individuals are unable to grasp such ideas unless God intervenes on their behalf to grant them a new spirit, a new heart, and a renewed mind. It is only through God's saving action— while even yet in the womb—that they acknowledge Christ as Savior; however, this acknowledgment comes solely as the result of divine intervention and salvation and not of themselves. This is also applicable to those who are mentally deficient or unconscious not being cognizant of spiritual truths.
Ultimately, your approach leads to the inevitable conclusion that people can be saved or not—receive eternal life or not— even when they are controlled by circumstances outside of themselves - circumstances that effectively eliminates their ability to choose. Of themselves, these circumstances have no inherent spiritual efficacy yet would cause their choices to be made (or not), as a result of random chance. This cannot be the result of an all loving, just and fair God as you say He is, who, were salvation actually dependent upon man's choices and actions and not God's, would place certain people in so overwhelming of a disadvantage as to effectively deny salvation to them by an accident of nature.
For the reasons stated above, in order for God to truly be a just and fair God, salvation must be given only to those whom God had specifically chosen to salvation, and not by quirks of man nor by the luck of the draw.
While not addressing each scriptural reference individually (which I could do), an example of your misunderstanding is found in your use of John 3:16 and in John 3:17. This verse is frequently cited to show how/that God "so loved the world," with "the world" typically understood to mean this present world. However, if Christ is the Savior of this current world, then this current world must eternally exist, since anything that Christ is the Savior of must, by definition, be eternal. Yet, as Scripture clearly demonstrates, this present world will not be saved; it will be destroyed by God. Therefore, the world referenced by this verse cannot mean this current temporal world but rather the eternal world which is to come— an eternal world to be inhabited by eternal people, for Christ's salvation is only for the eternal, never for the temporal.
GW does not address the question re preborns.
GW does affirm that all morally accountable souls are able to repent/be saved.
In order for God to be just/fair, He must not choose only some to be saved.
"World" in John 3:16 obviously means sinners, but only God is eternal.
The saved become immortal in heaven.
Hmmm - actually it does address preborns. See the following verses.
[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
[Psa 51:5 KJV] 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
True repentance is given only to those whom He chose unto salvation as a gift from God and which accompanies salvation. True repentance is to trust only in Christ as THE Savior instead of in the works of man. Natural man is unable to manifest that kind of true repentance.
See following verses.
[Rom 2:4 KJV] 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Read my post again. To leave salvation to man's choice (should salvation be based upon that which it isn't), and upon the quirks of nature and luck of the draw, is patently incorrect, and would be unfair of God for it to be on that basis, unless, of course, you believe that man is more trustworthy than God is.
Surely you do not interpret Psa. 58:3 literally! You are kidding, right?
You can exercise your free will to believe God hates those not given repentance, but I do not advise demeaning divine love.
Rom. 2:4 teaches that God is good/loving, wanting everyone to repent (1Tim. 2:3-4, cf. 2Tim. 2:25).
Surely, I do, and which with, does 51:5 confirm, and is in full agreement with.
[Psa 51:5 KJV] 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
I don't demean it, but God only spiritually loves those whom He will make righteous in Christ Jesus - those chosen unto salvation by Him from before the foundation of the world. Remember the "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated" - Rom 9:13 -15 ?
and
[Eph 1:4-5 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[Rom 9:13-15 KJV]
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
The "all" of 1 Tim 2:3-4 are all of whom the Father gives to Christ, but not everyone - John 17:2:
[Jhn 17:2 KJV] 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Whew! Your hermeneutical ability would be greatly improved by discerning between literal and figurative passages.
Also, your parenting skills would improve if you loved all of your children equally instead of favoring some.
Third, learn how to harmonize GW, so that Eph. 1:4-5 agrees with 1 Tim. 2:3-4, for example.
Fourth, always look for the most loving way to understand GW, rather than for a way to nullify/demean divine love.
Re Romans 9:
29. In Romans 9:1-5 Paul notes how sad it is that those who are part of the human ancestry of Christ reject him as Messiah, but being a member of Abraham’s spiritual children is what is crucial (#17).
30. Romans 9:6-13 states that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3). The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.
Rom. 9:11-16 says that God’s purpose in election is for salvation not to be by means of works or human effort but by God having mercy on whom He wants or chooses.
31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort (#12), although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.
32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).
33. Romans 9:18 says that God “hardens whom He wants to harden”, which raises the question asked in v.19, “Why does God blame sinners who cannot resist His will?” Paul’s response (Rom. 9:20-21) is that God has the might and thus the right to determine what is right. Then he speculates (“What if”) that God might have patiently endured evildoers (#20) as evidence of His glory toward recipients of His mercy. Rom. 9:22-23 indicates that God could have chosen to condemn everyone to show his power, but some are shown mercy, presumably those who did NOT refuse to love the truth.
34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or s/e.
35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.
Over...
Naturally, all of your post is completely wrong because you've built upon a foundation of man's works instead of God's grace through Jesus Christ, meaning you do not know Christ as THE Savior, and He being the foundation of the whole gospel. Building upon a wrong foundation led you to wrong conclusions which is why you feel forced to try to reverse engineer and revamp the text's true meaning into your incorrect beliefs. What do you think the title of Savior means? Do you believe Christ alone is THE Savior, or not? If you did, you could never, ever, have reached the conclusions you have, and which places you into direct opposition to the gospel.
You left the "and believe in thine heart" part out of your rendition of Romans 10:9. Wonder why? Could it be because to believe the "in thine heart", means that a new heart must first be given by God in order to believe, but which only comes as a result of salvation, not before? Scripture makes abundantly clear that a new heart must first be given because the old is "deceitful above all" and thereby incapable of truly believing. Observe:
[Rom 10:9 KJV] 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
You are better at projection than at interpretation.
The "believe" part is not left out for those who would bother to read the entire study so I don't have to copy and past portions in other threads, but here it is for your convenience:
1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile. [IF whosoever believes]
2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end. [IF whosoever believes from conversion until death]
3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading. [IF whosoever repents of unbelief/ignoring GW]
4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19). [“or not” signifies IF ]
5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows. [IF whosoever believes, then heaven, IF not–then hell]
6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4). [IF whosoever perseveres in saving belief]
7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW. [resistible = or not = IF]
8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil. [resisting/choosing atheism is made possible by IF]
Rom. 3:9-18 says that all humanity are sinners or bent on sinning instead of following God’s law through which we become aware of sin, but it does NOT say, man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, because the disobedience of Adam and Eve caused all humans to be born with an inherited sin nature and thus having a saving faith is against their very nature.
9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off. [IF in the OT is found in Deut. 30:19]
10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e. [IF = faith; in JC–or not/in self/Satan]
11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7). [may–or may not = IF]
12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit. [thus IF must choose belief in JC]
13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost. [IF whosoever believes in JC]
14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place. [IF whosoever believes in JC]
15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11). [opportunity = IF ]
16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10). [IF indicates God’s just judgment]
17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ. [Abe was the first to satisfy the condition of IF by believing in God]
18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God. [IF whosoever believes in JC]
19. Romans 5:2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.
20. Romans 5:6-10 states that God’s love (cf. kindness in #3) for the ungodly, for sinners and for His enemies is demonstrated by Christ dying for their s/e or justification/reconciliation.
21. Romans 5:12-21 describes s/e in corporate terms, saying that–like the first man–all (many?) men also sinned and died, and God’s grace comes to all (many?) because of Jesus Christ.
22. Romans 6:1-14 describes s/e in terms of Christians being united with Christ’s death and resurrection, so they who are under grace should not allow sin to reign in their bodies but should instead serve God as instruments of righteousness.
23. Romans 6:15-23 describes s/e in terms of being slaves to whom one willingly obeys, whether to sin or to obedience of God’s teaching that leads to righteousness, which results in eternal life “in Christ Jesus our Lord” (cf. #10).
24. Romans 7:1-6 describes s/e in terms of a wife’s remarriage after the death of her husband, saying that Christians have been released from the dead letter of the law so that they may serve God in the new way of the Spirit.
25. In Romans 7:7-25 Paul describes s/e in terms of struggle between what a person’s conscience wants to do and what his sinful nature causes him to do until he is rescued by Christ.
26. In Romans 8:1-25 Paul describes the s/e struggle in terms of Christians–who are indwelt by the Spirit and freed from living in accordance with the sinful nature—as putting to death sinful deeds, because they are God’s children and co-heirs of Christ’s glorious resurrection.
27. In Romans 8:28-30 Paul says that those who love God were foreknown and “predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son”, which is akin to what Paul said in Ephesians 1:4-14, that before creating the world God chose or predestined those sinners “in Christ” to be blameless sons and receive the Holy Spirit.
28. Romans 8:31-39 elaborates on the previous point by saying that there is nothing that can separate “we” (who reflect God’s love per v.28) from Christ’s love (but Heb. 10:26-36 indicates one exception).
29. In Romans 9:1-5 Paul notes how sad it is that those who are part of the human ancestry of Christ reject him as Messiah, but being a member of Abraham’s spiritual children is what is crucial (#17).
30. Romans 9:6-13 states that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3). The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.
Rom. 9:11-16 says that God’s purpose in election is for salvation not to be by means of works or human effort but by God having mercy on whom He wants or chooses.
31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort (#12), although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.
32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).
33. Romans 9:18 says that God “hardens whom He wants to harden”, which raises the question asked in v.19, “Why does God blame sinners who cannot resist His will?” Paul’s response (Rom. 9:20-21) is that God has the might and thus the right to determine what is right. Then he speculates (“What if”) that God might have patiently endured evildoers (#20) as evidence of His glory toward recipients of His mercy. Rom. 9:22-23 indicates that God could have chosen to condemn everyone to show his power, but some are shown mercy, presumably those who did NOT refuse to love the truth.
34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or s/e.
35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.
Over...
I ain't gonna follow behind your posts in other threads to figure out what you think, if that's what you're saying. Besides, that's a poor smoke screen to use to obscure the shortcoming in your biblical knowledge/comprehension. Look, when you can admit that Jesus Christ alone is the Savior and man is not, which doesn't appear that you are yet prepared to acknowledge, post me. Until then, everything that you post regarding the gospel and salvation will be wrong so just assume that will be my reply.
I am fine with discussing GW on any thread, but your comment is a poor smoke screen, because you discussed nothing in what I posted.
I admitted JC is the Savior before you were born, so be humble and learn from an elder.
I assume you will obfuscate rather than discuss Scripture, but the ball is in your court.
Yet your insistence that human action is necessary for salvation (per your post below) raises a fundamental contradiction with your statement above. If you had ever genuinely admitted—though the term "admitted" seems odd and "joyful" would be more appropriate— that man's action is not a prerequisite for salvation, then your subsequent denial of this by imposing actions from them for salvation (per your post below), undermines that original admission. It must be recognized that Christ, as Savior, either bestows salvation freely, unconditionally, and fully upon those He whom had chosen for salvation or He could not truly be THE Savior - it's just as simple as that. A Savior, by definition, must have fulfilled all requirements and prerequisites for salvation - accomplished and satisfied them on their behalf, which were solely between the God the Father and God, the Son, the Savior, without contribution from those saved. Therefore, attempting to combine both positions is inconsistent; one cannot claim that Christ is the Savior while simultaneously imposing requirements on them for that salvation.
Furthermore, by introducing qualifiers such as "who hears…" (see your post below), you imply the existence of a third group of people who neither hears nor receives salvation through Christ yet does not fall under God's condemnation. This perspective, whether intended or not, suggests that salvation is governed by fate rather than by Christ’s role as Savior. In doing so, it diminishes the significance of Christ as the provider of salvation and also as the one who judges. You also neglected to explicitly explain what their fate will be. If true, it would necessitate the existence of third gospel, one that permits a group of unbelievers who fall outside of the gospel of Christ, but because of not hearing, they are allowed to escape God's condemnation and wrath, which group, Scripture makes no such provision for - only those saved can truly hear - it is from salvation, not before, so the unsaved are unable to hear.
From your post
"Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander"
Yes, I insist that human action/an act of faith is necessary for salvation, but I also insist that such faith is God's condition comparable to opening a gift rather than a work that merits or earns salvation. My post below merely restates what Jesus and Paul teaches which is faith in the righteousness of Christ (Rom. 3:21-5:1), whereas you contradict the condition they state (in Matt. 4:17 & Eph. 2:8-9). It's just as simple as that. Nowhere does the Bible teach that saving faith is meritorious, whereas it DOES claim that Christ is the Savior while simultaneously requiring faith in order to be saved.
Furthermore, I thought you would understand that saying "every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord" is based on the NT without be having to cite passages, which do NOT imply the existence of a third group of people who neither hears nor receives salvation through Christ yet does not fall under God's condemnation. However, for starters I will point you to Rom. 1:20, which increases or broadens the importance of Christ to include all sinners throughout history, because God's intent is for no one to escape His salvation and love (1Tim. 2:3-4). Kick against THAT goad if you want!
But it is not dependent upon man's actions in any sense and that's what makes it by grace, otherwise it would be by works which means it is by law, but salvation cannot be by law. There are no conditions imposed upon man whereby he must satisfy them to become saved, otherwise, on that basis, no one would ever become save. And as @brightfame52 correctly states above, nowhere in Scripture is the requirement for man's faith stated as a condition of salvation. To the contrary, all of the attributes of salvation come from salvation to include faith.
I think you meant Rom 3:22, not 3:21, but the verse, in the KJV states "by the faith OF Christ"; that is by Christ's faith. However, the verse does not address HOW one comes to have true belief. To truly believe is given by God as a free gift and which accompanies salvation; it does not originate from/with man.
Please read these verses again carefully and closely. None of them, none of them, in any sense state a requirement that must be satisfied by man in order to become saved.
[Tit 3:4-7 KJV]
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
:[2Ti 1:9 KJV] 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
[1Co 6:11 KJV] 11 And such were some of you:
but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
[Rom 9:16 KJV] 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[Rom 3:24 KJV] 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[Rom 8:39 KJV] 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
[1Co 30 KJV]
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
[2Co 1:21 KJV] 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
God does not love everyone, not in the spiritual sense; He only loves His elect. Notice in Rom 9:11, we are informed that " that the purpose of God ACCORDING TO ELECTION might stand". Observe:
[Rom 9:11, 13, 15-16 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
... 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. ...
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Repentance given as a gift by God to those whom He saves. To truly repent, is to cease from trusting in one's works of righteousness for salvation and instead trust in Christ as THE Savior:
[Rom 2:4 KJV] 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
[Heb 6:1 KJV] 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Romans 1:20 is correct, all are without excuse, but, the verse does not state that they were given spiritual discernment. Spiritual discernment only comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit only indwells those who have become saved. It is through spiritual discernment that things spiritual become revealed to man.
Romans 1:20:
[Rom 1:20 KJV] 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
I forgot to address 1 Tim 2:3-4 in my prior post to you
To understand 1 Tim 2:3-4 we need to look at it in light of John 17:2, 9
[1Ti 2:3-4 KJV]
3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Notice that in Jhn 17:2, 9, we are informed without question of who the "all" of 1Ti 4 are. They are
those specifically whom the Father gives to Christ, but that is not everyone because not everyone will be
given eternal life as Jhn 17:2 so states they will be given.
In vs 9, we are specifically told that Christ does not pray for the world, but only for those given to Him by the Father
[Jhn 17:2, 9 KJV]
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. ...
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.