Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[studier]

This isn't true at all. You assert it with great confidence, but it just isn't true. What you hear is "we don't have choice or agency", but that is not the same thing as saying "we don't have free will". Jesus tells us we are SLAVES of sin, that is NOT FREE will, and that is how we are ALL born. So we are all born without FREE will, we are born with a will enslaved to sin. Only those who have been born again in Spirit can truly understand this, and so few here seem to "get it" in truth. What does Paul say about our will after being born again? Is it free then? Well it is free from sin but now a slave to obediance leading to righteousness. So still not "free". I'd love to see any scripture that tells us we do have a free will, but first you have to grasp the truth that free will and choice are NOT the same thing at all.

Like your assertion here has no grounded foundation, is not founded on truth, and it is not found in scripture, it's really just your opinion being put forth as if it can't be questioned and anyone who disagrees is wrong. I respectfully disagree.

Setting aside all the choice and agency and philosophy about what free includes and just focusing on a Biblical discussion about the will of man, which for this discussion I'm going to call free will.

Some thoughts:

When we were slaves of sin, we retained the freedom to think about God as He has revealed Himself to all men. Within this freedom of thought and reasoning though imprisoned under sin and death, we remained able to consider Him and even long for Him and for a different life that He as Creator (as He has instilled into men) could possibly and reasonably provide.

When the light of His Gospel shined and one of His servants explained Him and eternal life, why were we not free to choose to receive it? We're going to say a man imprisoned and longing for freedom is not free to will and to choose to accept the gifted freedom?

When Paul in Romans6 that you've alluded to speaks of being slaves to righteousness, those verses are intermixed with discussion re: obedience and commands to be slaves to righteousness. Those commands are made to the volition - which I'm calling free will here - of Christians who are free from being under law and under sin and death.

So, it's not just wording of being a slave to this or to that, but the wording applies commands to be slaves to righteousness. The wording also speaks of obedience and being a slave to obedience. This is interwoven language re: obedience in Rom6 spoken to and re: the free will of men both pre-faith and post-faith.

What's wrong with speaking of "free will" within the confines of this Biblical discussion, i.e. the free will to choose life - release from imprisonment - redemption - salvation - when graciously offered?

 

[studier]

As a supposedly too emotional at times woman, aren't i the one who's meant to exhibit throwing my toys out of the pram behaviour?

You already did as you freely chose to do and without my approval or cooperation.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Aww! Now that's called clutching at pearls behaviour. Typical troll/bully behaviour, you can't take what you dish out so liberally, i have no toleration left for your kind here.

 

[Magenta]

1 Peter 2 verse 24 (Isaiah 53 verse 5, Matthew 8 verse 17) Romans 6 verse 6 plus from 1 John 3 verse 5 ~ He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. “By His stripes you are healed.” Our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in Him.

 

[Magenta]

Setting aside all the choice and agency and philosophy about what free includes and just focusing
on a Biblical discussion about the will of man, which for this discussion I'm going to call free will.

That is not setting anything aside. You cling to your unBiblical presupposition... while pretending you don't.

The Biblical view is, the natural man has a will, it is enslaved to sin. But you can't agree with that.

So you persist in calling man's will free even when it is not.

Captive to the will of the devil is what you call free will.

 

[Haidabo]

The Biblical view is, the natural man has a will, it is enslaved to sin.

I don't believe
This was true with
Adam and Eve
In the beginning.
They were not enslaved
To any sin.

 

[Genez]

That is not setting anything aside. You cling to your unBiblical presupposition... while pretending you don't.

The Biblical view is, the natural man has a will, it is enslaved to sin. But you can't agree with that.

So you persist in calling man's will free even when it is not.

Captive to the will of the devil is what you call free will.

The natural man is the unbeliever.
Like all of us had been before regeneration.

Why do you dwell so much on the hopeless state of unregeneration?
We have been made free to grow in grace and knowledge of a billion
more things than you keep yourself locked up in your room about.
That's how you seem to be.

Do you have a good pastor teacher that can teach you daily more and more truth and wisdom?

 

[studier]

Aww! Now that's called clutching at pearls behaviour. Typical troll/bully behaviour, you can't take what you dish out so liberally, i have no toleration left for your kind here.

You are an oddity, bizarre as I said some months back. What makes you think I can't take what's dished out? Where have you dished out anything that I can't take? Self-aggrandizing fantasies are a wonderful thing to entertain some minds. Join the objective conversation I mistakenly thought you were having.

 

[LifelongLearner]

The natural man is the unbeliever.
Like all of us had been before regeneration.

Why do you dwell so much on the hopeless state of unregeneration?
We have been made free to grow in grace and knowledge of a billion
more things than you keep yourself locked up in your room about.
That's how you seem to be.

Do you have a good pastor teacher that can teach you daily more and more truth and wisdom?

You're far from the worst among the company you keep, however, i don't think you're in any position to judge someone like Magenta. Held on for a while because i thought it likely you and your buddies might try to strangle decent discussion on my post again. Thought Haidabo might be dodgy but with your appearance now too, i feel really suspicious, no more trolling on my posts thanks.

 

[LifelongLearner]

You are an oddity, bizarre as I said some months back. What makes you think I can't take what's dished out? Where have you dished out anything that I can't take? Self-aggrandizing fantasies are a wonderful thing to entertain some minds. Join the objective conversation I mistakenly thought you were having.

You are delusional, a pretty foul self deceiver.

 

[studier]

You are delusional, a pretty foul self deceiver.

Cute kittens.

 

[Genez]

You're far from the worst among the company you keep, however, i don't think you're in any position to judge someone like Magenta. Held on for a while because i thought it likely you and your buddies might try to strangle decent discussion on my post again. Thought Haidabo might be dodgy but with your appearance now too, i feel really suspicious, no more trolling on my posts thanks.

Magenta has been an unabashed TULIP thinker.
At least, that has been what she has been expressing on a consistent basis.

It has been explained several times how God's grace takes up the slack in hearing the Gospel as to establish free will to make a choice, either for, or against, Jesus. But? That did not matter. Instantly stamped Arminianism.... even though it was not what Arminians teach.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Cute kittens.

I love cats, so think all cats are beautiful. Just given my little lady her supper and some playtime, she has her through the night meal about 1am, when i'm ready for kip.

 

[studier]

I love cats, so think all cats are beautiful. Just given my little lady her supper and some playtime, she has her through the night meal about 1am, when i'm ready for kip.

You love me too. I can tell.

 

[Genez]

You're far from the worst among the company you keep, however, i don't think you're in any position to judge someone like Magenta. Held on for a while because i thought it likely you and your buddies might try to strangle decent discussion on my post again. Thought Haidabo might be dodgy but with your appearance now too, i feel really suspicious, no more trolling on my posts thanks.

Are you a TULIP believer?

If so?

That might explain why you feel the way you do.

But, if that is the case?
You would be forced to accept I have no choice in how I think.
So it is nothing personal.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Magenta has been an unabashed TULIP thinker.
At least, that has been what she has been expressing on a consistent basis.

It has been explained several times how God's grace takes up the slack in hearing the Gospel as to establish free will to make a choice, either for, or against, Jesus. But? That did not matter. Instantly stamped Arminianism.... even though it was not what Arminians teach.

i started out as more Calvinist March '24. There's a lot right about Calvinism but from what i've read, potential salvation is offered well beyond a small elect group. However, as i said, i had moments where i thought there must be a God but didn't act on it until God decided to activate me. That's the only way i can describe it, we certainly can have moments of semi-belief but our hearts are hostile and must be regenerated by the Spirit. Which can only happen if he calls us.

Don't think Magenta is Calvinist myself, she also knows free will is a lie we're told. Probably so Satan can try to accuse us before God, of being complicit in the evil. i'm definitely the Apologetic/Rational sort of Christian, Mike Winger is my favourite podcaster.

 

[LifelongLearner]

You love me too. I can tell.

You are making me laugh, a bit of charm does mollify me

 

[LifelongLearner]

Are you a TULIP believer?

If so?

That might explain why you feel the way you do.

But, if that is the case?
You would be forced to accept I have no choice in how I think.
So it is nothing personal.

A bit behind, doing other stuff too and about to play chess, if you want a bit more info than my last comment. ask.

 

[cv5]

This isn't true at all. You assert it with great confidence, but it just isn't true. What you hear is "we don't have choice or agency", but that is not the same thing as saying "we don't have free will". Jesus tells us we are SLAVES of sin, that is NOT FREE will, and that is how we are ALL born. So we are all born without FREE will, we are born with a will enslaved to sin. Only those who have been born again in Spirit can truly understand this, and so few here seem to "get it" in truth. What does Paul say about our will after being born again? Is it free then? Well it is free from sin but now a slave to obediance leading to righteousness. So still not "free". I'd love to see any scripture that tells us we do have a free will, but first you have to grasp the truth that free will and choice are NOT the same thing at all.

Like your assertion here has no grounded foundation, is not founded on truth, and it is not found in scripture, it's really just your opinion being put forth as if it can't be questioned and anyone who disagrees is wrong. I respectfully disagree.

Wrong.

Satan as noted in Genesis 3 demonstrates free will.
Satan as noted in Job demonstrates free will.
Judas and Judas-Satan as he interacted with Jesus demonstrates free will.

The free will to make wrong choices contrary to God's good and righteous will.
The free will to lie steal kill and destroy contrary to God's good and righteous will.

Fortunately, Rahab and the Gibeonites prove that making right choices is readily available to ANYONE who CHOOSES to live in accord to the will of God which is to save all those lost sons and daughters that call upon Him for mercy and grace and forgiveness.

 

[cv5]

So you persist in calling man's will free even when it is not.

No doubt whatsoever that man has free will.

Adam made wrong choices while he was yet unfallen and perfectly holy. So did the Woman.
Subsequently, Adam made right choices after the fall had taken place. So did the Woman.

Now you do Cain and Abel.