So you think we are saved before we believe? ie. regenerated, saved, believe in that order.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
So you think we are saved before we believe? ie. regenerated, saved, believe in that order.
But He didn't die to save people, He died to pay the penalty of sin.
If we are not meant to do something then why does God tell us to do it? We are not believing because it saves us, we are believing because it is what God said must be done and because it is God who said it, ie. whosoever believes will be saved", salvation is guaranteed by His word. It's not our believing that saves us, it is His word. If He had not spoken you could beleive till the cows come home and you still wouldn't be saved.
Faith is given freely to those who believe, for faith requires the word, but believing is how men are designed to live. Every man lives by what he believes whether for good or ill.
At the end of the day, what I'm hearing, is that you do not do your own believing but it is God who does it for you. So much for the responsibility being upon the person to repent and believe. <shrug>
So you are not obeying God when He says repent and believe? You just lay back and do nothing? No co-operation whatsoever required on your part?
So no co-operation from you. You're what, a robot? Even AI is proving to have more effect than you.
I love that whole script alot gal 2:20 life I now live By His Faith
I know but enjoy that anyway
Jesus says in John 15:5...you can do nothing apart from Me. I work out what God works in...Philippians 2:12-13. I'm not the focus; God is. He begins a good work in us, and continues it in us...Philippians 1:6.
I agree with your shrug, but I would like to point out a need for both-and logic:
Jesus died both to save people and to pay the penalty of sin, called redemption (Rom. 3:21-5:1).
God both speaks His Word/initiates saving grace and enables souls to believe/love Him or to resist/ignore His will
(Gen. 3:6, Eph. 2:8-9, 1Tim. 2:3-4).
These truths makes both man responsible and God's judgment just.
Jesus 'death does not save anyone. The Bible teaches that His atonement makes salvation provisional, repentance and faith by the individual make salvation actual.I agree with your shrug, but I would like to point out a need for both-and logic:
Jesus died both to save people and to pay the penalty of sin, called redemption (Rom. 3:21-5:1).
God both speaks His Word/initiates saving grace and enables souls to believe/love Him or to resist/ignore His will
(Gen. 3:6, Eph. 2:8-9, 1Tim. 2:3-4).
These truths makes both man responsible and God's judgment just.
You dont know what you talking about, @rogerg has been given some understanding.
Absolutely, otherwise we are lost in unbelief. As lost people we are as children of disobedience/unbelief by nature dead in sin Eph 2:1-3
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Disobedience is unbelief, it can read as follows:
Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of this air, of the spirit that now worketh on the children of unbelief: DRA
Thats because the word disobedience is the greek word ἀπείθεια:
ἀπείθεια apeítheia, ap-i'-thi-ah; from G545; disbelief (obstinate and rebellious):—disobedience, unbelief.
So while unquickened and dead in sin, our nature is one of unbelief and opposes the Divine will,
- obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
Now I took time to explain to you the consequences of being unregenerate, we are imprisoned in unbelief.
Your reply illustrates the need to include all relevant remarks (IOW, both-and logic).
I said both "Jesus died both to save people and to pay the penalty of sin, called redemption (Rom. 3:21-5:1)" and
"God both speaks His Word/initiates saving grace and enables souls to believe/love Him or to resist/ignore His will
(Gen. 3:6, Eph. 2:8-9, 1Tim. 2:3-4). These truths make both man responsible and God's judgment just."
IOW, Jesus' death saves sinners provisionally. We should resist the temptation to disagree when harmonization is possible.
(I have learned this truth since joining CC :^)
He did die to save people - He died to save His elect and He achieved everything necessary to bring that salvation to fruition. Do you actually understand what the title Savior means?
[Tit 3:4-7 KJV]
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Correct, belief does not/cannot save us. The spiritually dead cannot believe - for them to do so would be an impossibility.
[Eph 2:1, 5 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ...
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[1Pe 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
The "will be saved" of your post, pertains to the judgment at the judgment seat of Christ - that they who had been saved by Christ, by that, they will be saved from the second death on judgment day - it is salvation from the second death which in view.
[Mat 24:13 KJV] 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Christ alone is the Savior, man is not. Belief does not bring salvation; it comes as a byproduct of the salvation given by Christ - those who become saved, become saved, only because God had chosen them for salvation and not by anything they might do such as by their faith nor by their works. It is from that salvation, given as a free gift, they come to believe.
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
What I am hearing from you is that you believe it is up to man to act as his own savior instead of Christ being THE Savior -
the one who alone gives salvation and gives it fully, completely and perfectly with nothing left out of it: Christ is Savior, man is not.
He's trying to be relevant but actually has nothing of consequence to say - it's gobbledygook. I've placed him on ignore and as-of my last reply to him will cease doing so.
I agree with your shrug, but I would like to point out a need for both-and logic:
Jesus died both to save people and to pay the penalty of sin, called redemption (Rom. 3:21-5:1).
God both speaks His Word/initiates saving grace and enables souls to believe/love Him or to resist/ignore His will
(Gen. 3:6, Eph. 2:8-9, 1Tim. 2:3-4).
These truths makes both man responsible and God's judgment just.
Except it's His resurrection that saves, His death paved the way.
1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
His death saved from sin penalty, His resurrection gives new life 1 Pet 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Yes we are imprisoned which is why God comes to us in grace and truth Jn.1:14 calling us to believe Acts 16:31. We do not believe because we are saved, we are saved because God determined to save believers.
Acts 16:31
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Looks like they had to believe first.