Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
God doesn't live in time, we do. That why He says call me "I Am". God made everything, including time. In His eyes, the works are finished. God knew us before we were born, knows if we are saved and knows our outcome. There is NOTHING the Almighty doesn't know. In Jude we see the phrase 'before of old'. I can only assume that means before creation. "This is old", nope, it's it's before that. The word of God begins, 'In the beginning..'. Time created? In Revelation we see 'time no more'...
 
God doesn't live in time, we do. That why He says call me "I Am". God made everything, including time. In His eyes, the works are finished. God knew us before we were born, knows if we are saved and knows our outcome. There is NOTHING the Almighty doesn't know. In Jude we see the phrase 'before of old'. I can only assume that means before creation. "This is old", nope, it's it's before that. The word of God begins, 'In the beginning..'. Time created? In Revelation we see 'time no more'...
Time is absolutely an amazing creation.

I wonder when we have eternal life in heaven, we will be free to time travel, like space travel, from a to b. Time will be in our hands.
 
  • Love
Reactions: dkontner
None of that is true. The Abrahamic Covenant includes Abraham's physical descendants and all people of faith from every nation.
The Covenant of Grace is God's ongoing promise to save people through faith in Jesus Christ across all history. It is not a separate plan, but the same foundational promise given to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and later believers.

The covenant was never limited by ethnicity. God told Abraham that all families of the earth would be blessed through him. The New Testament book of Galatians explains that anyone who has faith in Christ is a spiritual child of Abraham and an heir to the promise.

The Old Testament believers were saved by the exact same Lord Jesus Christ and through the same method as New Testament believers. Salvation has always been a free gift from God, never earned by human works or keeping the ceremonial law. Old and New Testament saints are justified the same way—by placing their trust in the Lord Jesus.

The actual merit, blood, and payment that saved Old Testament believers was the future work of Jesus Christ on the cross. They were saved "on credit" or looking forward to the promise, while New Testament believers look backward to the finished event.

Old Testament believers looked forward to a coming Messiah through shadows, prophecies, and animal sacrifices. New Testament believers look back to a historical Savior who has already come and died.

Old Testament believers were regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit to have faith, but the New Covenant brought a richer, fuller, and universal outpouring of the Spirit following Christ's ascension at Pentecos.
Actually wrong again (or misinterpreted, misunderstood)

They did not know the future work of Jesus on the cross.

They knew God worked in mysterious ways and longed for a good King, but they didn't actually know Jesus.

You keep trying to retrofit Jesus into the OT but they would not have known Gods plan unfolding was for everyone. Gods chosen was limited and the promise was actually for Abraham's descendents to inherit the Holy Land and to become a great nation. People could join if they followed Gods ways and worshipped Him (like Ruth and Rahab) and then were included in this covenant. Made evident by circumcision, (if male) and obeying God and following His ways.

Of course Jesus let them know God was with them all the while and that He was going to lead them to redemption (as coming in the flesh) and that there would be a spiritual Kingdom, not just an earthly one, but many did not believe Him.

'Old Testament believers' were never identified as such. They were just prophets chosen by God to tell others about Him, and to help Abraham's descendants obey God so they could inherit the Holy Land or the Promised Land as it is known. This was the promise.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: dkontner

Zechariah 12​

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
 
We (believers) can exercise faith. and we can use the freedom God gave us to do so.

Jesus sets us free if we are bound by sin. Or even blinded.

If you do not believe He did so, then you need to know this.

Don't get things backwards.

Why did Jesus say 'Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness and everything will be added unto you' He would not say this if God was not mysterious and needed to be sought out. Also this act of seeking, what is this?

Are we not allowed to seek after God? I think the desire of our hearts is to know God or at least to live forever. We know we cannot, everyone of us will die at some point. But we can know God spiritually and of course this translates into His provision of blessings in our daily lives - food, shelter, friends, family etc

Of course God was angry at His chosen or as it is known as the Bible 'the elect' did NOT want to seek after Him and turned away from Him. This was why He sometimes disciplined them or punished them by allowing them to be exiled from their homeland. The land that was promised to them, that they were to have forever. With the covenant came blessings (if His chosen followed Him) or curses (if they did not)
 

Zechariah 12​

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Yes Judah
Which was the house of David and inhabitants of Jerusalem as Jews were known then.

They were not doing things right by God, so they would then come to know how bad things would be if they did not follow Him. The sorrow of a mother/father losing their firstborn or only child would be deep, when they effectively lost their land and were exiled. Which happened.
 

Zechariah 13​

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

I can do this all night. So could Moses
 

Zechariah 12​

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
John MacArthur preached a lot about this. And he was against secular support of secular system from true believers. He said that support is actually cursing. Ouch!!!

For that I give him a lot of credit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dkontner
That's absolutely true, yet the vast majority of professing Christians don't believe it.
Grace and saving faith are unmerited gifts from God that precede human belief.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."


The Greek phrasing for "this" is neuter, which encompasses both grace and faith, meaning the entire package of salvation—including the ability to believe—is a divine gift.

Philippians 1:29 "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake."

Faith is something explicitly "granted" or gifted to the believer by God.

Acts 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

Ordination or appointment to eternal life comes before the action of believing.

John 6:44, 65: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him... This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Human capability is spiritually dead (monergism) until God actively draws and grants the capacity to come.

Romans 9:16 "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

Salvation explicitly bypasses initial human free will in favor of God's sovereign mercy.
I think when someone who profess Christ yet do not believe what he taught,they are then proving to readers other parts of his teachings true as revealed in themselves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Journey_man
"God chooses who to save unconditionally, based entirely on His sovereign will rather than by looking ahead to see who would choose to believe."

My personal understanding, which is always open to modification if a better theory turns up, is that God KNOWS all so doesn't need to look ahead.

Our brains are incredible, there's definitely plenty of evidence their capability is far beyond our current lifespan, including that of people who lived before the flood. However, i think the heart is probably where our mind resides, to use relevant computer terms, i think of the heart as the motherboard and the brain as the cpu.
The Bible teaches that God chose the elect based on His own sovereign will and good pleasure, not because He foresaw human actions or faith.

God's decision to save individuals is completely unconditional and does not rest on any foreseen human response, merit, or choice. In Romans 9 God chooses Jacob over Esau before they were born or had done anything good or evil.
 
Actually wrong again (or misinterpreted, misunderstood)

They did not know the future work of Jesus on the cross.

They knew God worked in mysterious ways and longed for a good King, but they didn't actually know Jesus.

You keep trying to retrofit Jesus into the OT but they would not have known Gods plan unfolding was for everyone. Gods chosen was limited and the promise was actually for Abraham's descendents to inherit the Holy Land and to become a great nation. People could join if they followed Gods ways and worshipped Him (like Ruth and Rahab) and then were included in this covenant. Made evident by circumcision, (if male) and obeying God and following His ways.

Of course Jesus let them know God was with them all the while and that He was going to lead them to redemption (as coming in the flesh) and that there would be a spiritual Kingdom, not just an earthly one, but many did not believe Him.

'Old Testament believers' were never identified as such. They were just prophets chosen by God to tell others about Him, and to help Abraham's descendants obey God so they could inherit the Holy Land or the Promised Land as it is known. This was the promise.
The Bible teaches that Old Testament believers were saved by trusting in God's promise of a coming Messiah. The way God saves people has never changed. Believers before and after Jesus are saved by Him in the exact same way.

Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith, not by following the strict rules of the Jewish Law. The Bible teaches there is one single plan of salvation (called the Covenant of Grace) in both the Old and New Testaments. Animal sacrifices and temple rituals did not save people by themselves. Instead, they were pictures and shadows that pointed people forward to Jesus.

The Bible never teaches that anyone—Jew or Gentile—was justified or added to the saving grace of the Abrahamic covenant through those physical works you mentioned.

The Abrahamic covenant is fundamentally a covenant of grace received through faith. The Apostle Paul argues in Romans 4:9–10 that Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised. Circumcision was given later as a "sign and seal" of the righteousness he already possessed by faith, not the mechanism that earned it.

In the New Testament (such as in the Book of Galatians and Acts 15), the Judaizers argued that Gentiles must undergo physical circumcision and keep the Mosaic Law to be fully included in God's family. But Paul vehemently opposed this, maintaining that adding legal works and ethnic identity markers nullifies grace and turns the promise into a works-based system.

The Abrahamic covenant and the New Covenant as essentially the same underlying covenant of grace, but administered differently. Under the Old Testament administration, Gentiles could attach themselves to the visible national community of Israel via proselytizing (e.g., Exodus 12:48), but the spiritual reality always required an inward "circumcision of the heart" through faith in the promised Messiah.
 
The Bible teaches that God chose the elect based on His own sovereign will and good pleasure, not because He foresaw human actions or faith.

God's decision to save individuals is completely unconditional and does not rest on any foreseen human response, merit, or choice. In Romans 9 God chooses Jacob over Esau before they were born or had done anything good or evil.
When i first became Christian, i too strongly leaned to Calvinism but the more i learned, the less plausible it became to me. I think Calvin acted in good faith but the period he lived in must be taken into account. Popes were dominant politically and spiritually, frequent excommunication was a serious threat to literally everyone in Europe, convents were often brothels too etc. Much of Calvin's reasoning seems to be a very understandable reaction to a politicised, religious hierarchy which sought earthly power, not the doing of God's will. However, it seems most ordinary people of the time probably were genuine believers.

I'm fully aware God deciding to save us is purely His choice, we obviously can't do anything to merit it, however, i really disagree with many Calvinist interpretations of Scripture. Definitely don't agree Romans 9 supports Calvinism without cherry picking either, Mike Winger does a good breakdown on why not in this video:

Non-Calvinist Interpretation of Romans 9

God choosing Jacob over Esau isn't supportive of Calvinism, as i said earlier God is omniscient. Time and space are His creations, He is outside of them, and KNOWS all, which fits in well with his prenatal choice of Jacob over Esau. I'm Christian, not religious at all, first century style Christianity would float my boat for sure tho.





















































































 
When i first became Christian, i too strongly leaned to Calvinism but the more i learned, the less plausible it became to me. I think Calvin acted in good faith but the period he lived in must be taken into account. Popes were dominant politically and spiritually, frequent excommunication was a serious threat to literally everyone in Europe, convents were often brothels too etc. Much of Calvin's reasoning seems to be a very understandable reaction to a politicised, religious hierarchy which sought earthly power, not the doing of God's will. However, it seems most ordinary people of the time probably were genuine believers.

I'm fully aware God deciding to save us is purely His choice, we obviously can't do anything to merit it, however, i really disagree with many Calvinist interpretations of Scripture. Definitely don't agree Romans 9 supports Calvinism without cherry picking either, Mike Winger does a good breakdown on why not in this video:

Non-Calvinist Interpretation of Romans 9

God choosing Jacob over Esau isn't supportive of Calvinism, as i said earlier God is omniscient. Time and space are His creations, He is outside of them, and KNOWS all, which fits in well with his prenatal choice of Jacob over Esau. I'm Christian, not religious at all, first century style Christianity would float my boat for sure tho.





















































































Not sure what happened there but wasn't able to edit the empty space out.
 
No, in Galatians 4:9 Paul is not teaching that God lacks eternal omniscience or that He learns about a person's existence only after they choose to believe. This verse highlights divine initiative and covenantal election, not a delayed divine awareness.

God is omniscient and knows all things from eternity past (Psalm 139, Ephesians 1:4). He does not wait for human beings to make the first move before He becomes aware of them.

When Paul writes, "you have come to know God—or rather to be known by God," he corrects any prideful assumption that a believer's salvation originates from their own brilliant spiritual insight or human achievement. Paul corrects himself to emphasize that human knowledge of God is entirely derivative—it exists only because God first knew, chose, and loved them.


In scriptural terms, God "knowing" someone (like the concept of yada in the Old Testament or Paul's use in passages like Romans 8:29) implies an intimate, electing, and saving relationship. To be "known by God" means to be the object of His sovereign, gracious affection and predestined adoption before time began.
AI reads the text (Galatians 4:9) differently to you.

Galatians 4:9 states: "But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to
those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?" (NIV). Written by the Apostle Paul,
this verse warns believers against returning to legalism and worldly religious rituals after experiencing spiritual freedom
through Christ. [1, 2, 3]


Key Themes
    • Known by God: Paul corrects human effort by noting that God knowing us is far more vital than our own attempt to reach Him.
    • Spiritual Bondage: Reverting to strict religious rules or trying to earn divine favor is described as returning to slavery.
    • Weak Forces: The text refers to human rituals and basic worldly principles as powerless to save
 
When i first became Christian, i too strongly leaned to Calvinism but the more i learned, the less plausible it became to me. I think Calvin acted in good faith but the period he lived in must be taken into account. Popes were dominant politically and spiritually, frequent excommunication was a serious threat to literally everyone in Europe, convents were often brothels too etc. Much of Calvin's reasoning seems to be a very understandable reaction to a politicised, religious hierarchy which sought earthly power, not the doing of God's will. However, it seems most ordinary people of the time probably were genuine believers.

I'm fully aware God deciding to save us is purely His choice, we obviously can't do anything to merit it, however, i really disagree with many Calvinist interpretations of Scripture. Definitely don't agree Romans 9 supports Calvinism without cherry picking either, Mike Winger does a good breakdown on why not in this video:

Non-Calvinist Interpretation of Romans 9

God choosing Jacob over Esau isn't supportive of Calvinism, as i said earlier God is omniscient. Time and space are His creations, He is outside of them, and KNOWS all, which fits in well with his prenatal choice of Jacob over Esau. I'm Christian, not religious at all, first century style Christianity would float my boat for sure tho.





















































































Only Calvinism is fully consistent with the biblical gospel, whereas Arminianism compromises God's absolute sovereignty in salvation.

The Bible teaches that God is the sole author and finisher of salvation. Calvinism aligns with this by teaching monergism, meaning God alone changes a person's heart before they can believe.

God initiates, sustains, and completes salvation without depending on human will. He chooses whom to save based entirely on His grace, not foreseen human faith.

Christ's death on the cross successfully purchases and secures faith for the elect.

Arminianism teaches synergism, meaning human free will cooperates with prevenient grace to make salvation effective. Arminianism makes the sinner the ultimate decider instead of God. Placing human faith before spiritual rebirth turns grace into a reward for a human choice.

I've never heard of Mike winger, so I'm not prepared to spend an hour listening to a strangers private opinions. I've already heard the worlds greatest theologians and Bible Scholars debate the subject, so I don't believe there's anything new to discover.
 
Only Calvinism is fully consistent with the biblical gospel, whereas Arminianism compromises God's absolute sovereignty in salvation.

The Bible teaches that God is the sole author and finisher of salvation. Calvinism aligns with this by teaching monergism, meaning God alone changes a person's heart before they can believe.

God initiates, sustains, and completes salvation without depending on human will. He chooses whom to save based entirely on His grace, not foreseen human faith.

Christ's death on the cross successfully purchases and secures faith for the elect.

Arminianism teaches synergism, meaning human free will cooperates with prevenient grace to make salvation effective. Arminianism makes the sinner the ultimate decider instead of God. Placing human faith before spiritual rebirth turns grace into a reward for a human choice.

I've never heard of Mike winger, so I'm not prepared to spend an hour listening to a strangers private opinions. I've already heard the worlds greatest theologians and Bible Scholars debate the subject, so I don't believe there's anything new to discover.
"I've never heard of Mike winger, so I'm not prepared to spend an hour listening to a strangers private opinions."

Seriously think you need to develop more respect for the opinions of others, civilised discussion is a far better tool for mutual enlightenment than bludgeoning others with your opinions. For that's what they are, truth to you, fine, no worries but i don't agree.

One of the things which helped me realise Calvinism isn't right, is it's proponents are often unreasonable when their personal beliefs are challenged. Also, are you suggesting one must be either Calvinist or Arminian? Why? I'm Christian and need no other label, scripture guides my understanding and i'm more than happy to make my mind over; if my current understanding develops further or changes.

Sad to say the rest of your comment looks like preaching to the choir stuff, to me. It bears little relation to what i've said and even less to what i believe, it is inaccurate and i think superfluous as well.
 
Only Calvinism is fully consistent with the biblical gospel, whereas Arminianism compromises God's absolute sovereignty in salvation.

Both are wrong.

Both are like the blind men grabbing onto different parts of an elephant. Each being dogmatically sure that the other must be wrong because of what it is that they are touching. Knowing that the other cannot be right.

It's a neat trick.
 
Only Calvinism is fully consistent with the biblical gospel, whereas Arminianism compromises God's absolute sovereignty in salvation.

The Bible teaches that God is the sole author and finisher of salvation. Calvinism aligns with this by teaching monergism, meaning God alone changes a person's heart before they can believe.

God initiates, sustains, and completes salvation without depending on human will. He chooses whom to save based entirely on His grace, not foreseen human faith.

Christ's death on the cross successfully purchases and secures faith for the elect.

Arminianism teaches synergism, meaning human free will cooperates with prevenient grace to make salvation effective. Arminianism makes the sinner the ultimate decider instead of God. Placing human faith before spiritual rebirth turns grace into a reward for a human choice.

I've never heard of Mike winger, so I'm not prepared to spend an hour listening to a strangers private opinions. I've already heard the worlds greatest theologians and Bible Scholars debate the subject, so I don't believe there's anything new to discover.
How much free will did you exercise in writing that post?
 
Romans 6:15-18
New International Version
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.