Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Journey_man]

I do believe God's Word can be trusted. David repented before God and was forgiven. (KJV 2 Samuel 12:13) "And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die."

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Revelation 21:8 are true. Adulterers and murderers are not God's people and they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

You really are confused, you don't even know what to believe, And I have no idea what you believe either, so I can't help you. It sounds like you need some professional counsel, to help you figure out what you believe.

 

[Journey_man]

A. They did NOT FALL AWAY, genius. The author was only warning them about the DANGERS of falling away. He never said they had done so already or that they would. In fact, he was careful to add that, although he had warned them in this way he expected better things of them - things concerning salvation. Is it not possible to caution your son about the dangers of driving recklessly without it being a dire prediction that he is certain to have a fatal accident?

B. Further warnings about falling away or departing from the faith or apostatizing can be found elsewhere both in Hebrews as well as in other passages of the Bible. The definition of apostasy which is the act of abandoning or renouncing one's faith, in the context of Christianity. You have attempted to nullify the warning by positing that the people who were being addressed in this book were NEVER TRUE converts. However, taking the description of them is taken as it is written it is unmistakable that they were.

C. For your assumption about them to be true you have to do considerable re-engineering of the passage.
The word once [ἅπαξ] as in ONCE ENLIGHTENED refers to a specific point in their history when the light of the gospel first entered their hearts received light. Though you try to make this about the light of universal moral consciousness, that knowledge is not necessarily a one-time event. Furthermore, had these Hebrews not been born again why would the author urge them to leave behind the elementary teachings of the faith. Are people who have never been born again ready to go on to maturity?

D. You also gloss over many of their characteristics by appending your own imaginative scenarios to the text For instance, when the Bible says they had tasted the heavenly gift you define tasted as something like sampling a small amount. Just how does an unsaved person go about sampling the Holy Spirit? Surely you know that the word taste can refer to PERSONAL EXPERIENCE rather than merely observing something happening to someone else from a distance, When the Bible says Jesus tasted death for every man did it mean he got close enough to death to get an idea about what it is like or did He actually experience it?

The word It is a serious concern as it involves a deliberate turning away from the truth of the Gospel and the teachings of Jesus Christ.




It seems to me that when the Author speaks about whether a foundational truth has been lain in a person's life he was not just talking their learning abstract ideas. He is speaking about whether a divine truth has been implanted on the bedrock of their souls.
1. Repentance is not about just having some minor regrets about having sinned. It means feeling a godly sorrow that is great enough to persuade us to turn AWAY from our self-centered way of life.
2. Faith, which is the other side of this process, turns us towards Christ for help and deliverance
3.

You sure butchered Hebrews 6 beyond recognition. All your points a moot, because the so called warning were never directed at any real people. They were all hypothetical scenarios, and no such people existed in Hebrews 6 so you're only chasing shadows.

The author would never suggest that true believers can fall away, we know that's impossible because God said so. You're welcome to express your opinion, as long as you understand that it's not Biblically correct.

 

[rogerg]

You sure butchered Hebrews 6 beyond recognition. All your points a moot, because the so called warning were never directed at any real people. They were all hypothetical scenarios, and no such people existed in Hebrews 6 so you're only chasing shadows.

The author would never suggest that true believers can fall away, we know that's impossible because God said so. You're welcome to express your opinion, as long as you understand that it's not Biblically correct.

As I understand those verses, Journey_man, in Hebrews 6:4 - 6:9, the point of the author was not to give a warning to the readers. Instead, he is explicitly reassuring them that their salvation is totally secure. By declaring, 'We are convinced of better things concerning you—things that accompany salvation,' the writer explicitly states that what he just described in verses 4–8 does not apply to them - that he was using it only for edification regarding the unshakable certainty of their salvation

 

[JimiSurvivor]

You sure butchered Hebrews 6 beyond recognition. All your points a moot, because the so called warning were never directed at any real people. They were all hypothetical scenarios, and no such people existed in Hebrews 6 so you're only chasing shadows.

The author would never suggest that true believers can fall away, we know that's impossible because God said so. You're welcome to express your opinion, as long as you understand that it's not Biblically correct.

I am sure that is the way it seems to you having been steeped in the teachings of Augustine, Luther and Calvin. men who had adopted many of the predeterministic beliefs that were popular at the time. However, to see what is true we must keep focused not on them but on the written word.

Notice that the more the author talks about the people under his care the more information we find out about them . For instance, when he opens Hebrews chapter 3 he addresses them this way:
1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, set your focus on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.
(Hebrews 3:1)
The one who knew them best called them holy brothers who share in the heavenly calling whose High Priest was the Lord Jesus. Later in the same chapter he gives them another warning:
12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.
(Hebrews 3:12-3)
Doesn't the fact that he warns them about developing a wicked heart of unbelief suggest that such a thing was possible? Again, he did not say they already had hard hearts. He was WARNING them about the dangers of allowing it to happen. One preventive measure he mentions is that they exhorting one another daily. Would he give this advice to UNREGENERATE people who do not even believe?

In order to ultimately have our share in the promised eternal inheritance they had to continue holding firmly to the original faith they came to at the beginning of their walk with Christ
14 We have come to share in Christ IF we hold firmly to the end the assurance [of faith] we had at first.
(Hebrews 3:12-3)

 

[JimiSurvivor]

You sure butchered Hebrews 6 beyond recognition. All your points a moot, because the so called warning were never directed at any real people. They were all hypothetical scenarios, and no such people existed in Hebrews 6 so you're only chasing shadows.

The author would never suggest that true believers can fall away, we know that's impossible because God said so. You're welcome to express your opinion, as long as you understand that it's not Biblically correct.

It is not directed at real people? So the author was just speaking about theoretical people. Try reading this:
…33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to ridicule and persecution; at other times you were partners with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, knowing that you yourselves had a better and permanent possession.
(Hebrews 10:33-34)
He goes into great lengths to describe events that never actually happened

 

[TheLordIsMyRedeemer]

You really are confused, you don't even know what to believe, And I have no idea what you believe either, so I can't help you. It sounds like you need some professional counsel, to help you figure out what you believe.

I’m not confused and I know what I believe. David found mercy with the Lord because he told Nathan that he had sinned against the Lord. David was forgiven of his sin. (KJV 2 Samuel 12:13) David is described in 1 Kings 11:34 as keeping the commandments and statutes of the Lord.

I know God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness according to 1 John 1:9.

You said that you “know that God’s people are not perfect, we still sin and commit murder and adultery and every other kind of sin.”

Christians sometimes commit sins as you mentioned. We must confess our sins to be cleansed from all unrighteousness. David confessed his sins and was forgiven by God. (KJV Romans 4:7) “Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.”

God’s people are to be holy and without blame. (KJV Ephesians 1:4) “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

Titus says that we should deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. (KJV Titus 2:12) “Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”

Those unrepentant adulterers and murderers mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Revelation 21:8 will not inherit the kingdom of God. They are not God’s people.

I believe it is possible for a past murderer or adulterer who has repented and been cleansed from all unrighteousness by the Lord Jesus Christ to inherit the kingdom of God.

(KJV Hebrews 12:14) “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

 

[LifelongLearner]

Greetings all you lovely li'l sweethearts, back from my to-ing and fro-ing. Less pages further on than i thought, have a few things to sort here first but then i'll knuckle down and read what's probably drivel for the most part.

Some of you might like the Free Will article in the Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy, it's pretty good. I'm in the Augustinian camp apparently, he too thought our fallen state made free will a current impossibility for us:

Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[JimiSurvivor]

As I understand those verses, Journey_man, in Hebrews 6:4 - 6:9, the point of the author was not to give a warning to the readers. Instead, he is explicitly reassuring them that their salvation is totally secure. By declaring, 'We are convinced of better things concerning you—things that accompany salvation,' the writer explicitly states that what he just described in verses 4–8 does not apply to them - that he was using it only for edification regarding the unshakable certainty of their salvation

So, your position is that the author of Hebrews was NOT warning the Hebrews he was writing to.
A WARNING, by definition, is: a notice, statement, or sign that tells people about a possible danger, risk, or problem so they can avoid it. Instead, of taking his words seriously you abandon the conventional usage of language and assert that what he said was meant to reassure them that due to their status there neither WAS not COULD BE any danger at all. However, where there is no possibility of a negative outcome warnings are unnecessary and, if anything, deceptive.

If you were traveling down a highway late at night and saw a sign that said DANGER BRIDGE OUT. Would you think those in charge of the road were not speaking of any REAL risk of following that road or would you assume that was just meant to motivate you to be a better driver? Disarming the text of its meaning shows that you are not seriously interested in understanding its meaning but are attempting to subvert it to accommodate a belief you which, no doubt, you sincerely hold.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

You really are confused, you don't even know what to believe, And I have no idea what you believe either, so I can't help you. It sounds like you need some professional counsel, to help you figure out what you believe.

When someone disagrees with you they usually have some reason to. You cannot avoid the task of exploring their points by pathologizing their disagreement as an expression of some kind of mental disorder for which they need professional help. This condescending approach is a technique of manipulation often called Gas-lighting.

 

[rogerg]

So, your position is that the author of Hebrews was NOT warning the Hebrews he was writing to.
A WARNING, by definition, is: a notice, statement, or sign that tells people about a possible danger, risk, or problem so they can avoid it. Instead, of taking his words seriously you abandon the conventional usage of language and assert that what he said was meant to reassure them that due to their status there neither WAS not COULD BE any danger at all. However, where there is no possibility of a negative outcome warnings are unnecessary and, if anything, deceptive.

If you were traveling down a highway late at night and saw a sign that said DANGER BRIDGE OUT. Would you think those in charge of the road were not speaking of any REAL risk of following that road or would you assume that was just meant to motivate you to be a better driver? Disarming the text of its meaning shows that you are not seriously interested in understanding its meaning but are attempting to subvert it to accommodate a belief you which, no doubt, you sincerely hold.

Yes, you are correct, that is my unconditional position. Your highway illustration completely fails because you aren't looking at who the author is talking to. The author of Hebrews isn't warning true believers that they can lose their salvation. He is doing the polar opposite of that by confirming the eternal security of those of verse 6:9, and not only confirming, but actively encouraging and bolstering them by it. The text draws a hard wall between two completely different groups. In verses 4–6, the author uses pronouns like "those" and "themselves" to describe fake believers who fall away. However, in verse 9, he completely switches groups and changes the pronouns to "you" and "we." From/by that distinction we can know he has two separate groups in view, otherwise, the same pronouns would have been used throughout all verses. In addition, he writes: "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." By clearly saying he is persuaded of "better things" for the true believers—things that always "accompany salvation"—he proves beyond dispute that the first group never had true salvation to begin with. The text guarantees eternal security for the beloved, and respectfully, your interpretation simply doesn't penetrate that wall.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

A. It seems to me that those who hold the doctrines based on a presumption of Theistic Determinism see the ability of man to make moral/spiritual choices as a kind of threat to God's omnipotence (which they miscall His sovereignty). However, that mankind CAN resist God's will is imminently Biblical. That is precisely what SIN IS.

B. However omnipotence and sovereignty are not the same thing. What I mean is that it does not necessarily follow from God's ability to create the universe any way He wanted that He would necessarily choose to run it by a divine policy of total divine control every variable that including not only every physical event but, more importantly, every thought, desire, imagination and choice of every sentient creature that inhabited creation.

C. Many religions and philosophical systems in the Early Centuries taught such total unilateral determinism which was overseen by either a personal deity or, later by some universal impersonal powers such as fate.

 

[Journey_man]

You seem think I got everything I believe from my pastor. No, as a matter of fact, I rejected Calvinism back when I was a teen because it seemed contradictory. You seem to have the mentality that people know nothing unless a Pastor teaches them. Perhaps this is the way you wish it were. I do not consider Calvin's view of salvation to be "good news." It sounds more like a raffle in which the tickets have already been distributed and losers have already been chosen. As for your doctrine of eternal security - no one in the Early Church believed in a salvation that could be neither chosen or lost.

The Bible makes it very clear that we must abide, remain, continue the relationship we have with the Vine who is Jesus Christ. This is not about performing meritorious works. It is about faith, love and obedience as the Holy Spirit continues to enable us. Jesus also warned us about the dangers of not continuing. Walking by FAITH is a walk of depending on Him.


Your statement that they were not true believers IS ITSELF the ASSUMPTION you made from the outset of our discussion. You made this assumption on the basis of the presuppositions you learned from Augustine, Calvin and Luther. Can you not see this? Your habit of imposing your own words INTO the texts shows that you do not accept it as it is written,


Let us stay focused on Hebrews 6 for a bit. The passage never says it is impossible for true believers to fall away. The author's purpose was never to make a comparison between true and false believers. He was giving a warning to believers not to fall away. What was impossible is for someone who has fallen away completely (in the manner he describes) to be restored to through repentance.

At some point, you tried to make the argument that the phrase IF THEY FALL AWAY introduces a contrary to fact hypothetical (something like that) However, although the KJV uses the phrase
IF they shall fall away in Hebrews 6:6 the original Greek text does not. Instead it says:
6 AND THEN have fallen away— to be restored to repentance. The word and then is the Greek conjunction καὶ

Hebrews 6:6 Greek Text Analysis

How are you supposed to learn anything without a teacher. God has appointed and ordained Shepherds to watch over us sheep. I don't know why you'd reject Gods Shephard's and take the law into your own hands by setting yourself up as your own unqualified and unauthorized shepherd.

You don't know that first thing about Calvinism, so your criticism of it is born out of ignorance. You mock the gospel message by claiming that God chooses His elect by a using a raffle ticket system. I consider that to be outright blasphemy.

As for your Arminian teaching that Gods saves His people and then changes His mind and casts them into the lake of fire, is absurd. It makes God a liar, the Lord Jesus said nothing can snatch them out of My Fathers hand. But you reject that because Jacob Arminius rejected the true gospel, and it's obvious you believe what he said over what God said.

You said "The Bible makes it very clear that we must abide, remain, continue the relationship we have with the Vine who is Jesus Christ". This is another one of your blatant lies, the Bible would never say something so silly.

God promised that none of His elect would ever be lost or fall away. I'd rather believe what God has said, than what you say.

John 6:37-40: Jesus states that all the Father gives Him will come to Him, and He will never cast them out or lose any of them

John 10:27-29: Jesus promises that His sheep hear His voice, receive eternal life, will never perish, and cannot be snatched out of His or the Father.

Romans 8:38-39: Paul is fully convinced that nothing in all creation—including death, life, or future powers—can separate believers from the love of God in Christ.

Romans 8:29-30: Paul outlines the golden chain of salvation, showing an unbroken, guaranteed progression from God's foreknowledge and predestination to justification and ultimate glorification.

Philippians 1:6: Paul expresses confidence that the one who began a good work in the believers will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[Journey_man]

As I understand those verses, Journey_man, in Hebrews 6:4 - 6:9, the point of the author was not to give a warning to the readers. Instead, he is explicitly reassuring them that their salvation is totally secure. By declaring, 'We are convinced of better things concerning you—things that accompany salvation,' the writer explicitly states that what he just described in verses 4–8 does not apply to them - that he was using it only for edification regarding the unshakable certainty of their salvation

I love your calm and collected approach, towards the mockers. You get your point across in a measured and effective way. I still have a way to go, before I reach your level of enlightenment

 

[rogerg]

I love your calm and collected approach, towards the mockers. You get your point across in a measured and effective way. I still have a way to go, before I reach your level of enlightenment

Thank you, Journey_man, I appreciate that. I've been working on trying keep calm but still have quite a way to go.
From what I've observed, you keep your cool pretty well yourself. Regarding enlightenment, especially biblical enlightenment,
you are second to no one that I've observed so far on this thread.

 

[Journey_man]

I am sure that is the way it seems to you having been steeped in the teachings of Augustine, Luther and Calvin. men who had adopted many of the predeterministic beliefs that were popular at the time. However, to see what is true we must keep focused not on them but on the written word.

Notice that the more the author talks about the people under his care the more information we find out about them . For instance, when he opens Hebrews chapter 3 he addresses them this way:
1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, set your focus on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.
(Hebrews 3:1)
The one who knew them best called them holy brothers who share in the heavenly calling whose High Priest was the Lord Jesus. Later in the same chapter he gives them another warning:
12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.
(Hebrews 3:12-3)
Doesn't the fact that he warns them about developing a wicked heart of unbelief suggest that such a thing was possible? Again, he did not say they already had hard hearts. He was WARNING them about the dangers of allowing it to happen. One preventive measure he mentions is that they exhorting one another daily. Would he give this advice to UNREGENERATE people who do not even believe?

In order to ultimately have our share in the promised eternal inheritance they had to continue holding firmly to the original faith they came to at the beginning of their walk with Christ
14 We have come to share in Christ IF we hold firmly to the end the assurance [of faith] we had at first.
(Hebrews 3:12-3)

I am sure that is the way it seems to you having been steeped in the teachings of Jacob Arminius, Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn etc. Men who had adopted many of the "saved by self" beliefs that were popular at the time. However, to see what is true we must keep focused not on them but on the written word.

Notice the author of Hebrews makes it clear that the people in Chapter 3 are not the same as those described in chapter 6, as these don't exist, they are hypothetical cyborgs.

You need to learn the difference between an "exhortation" and a "warning". I don't have time to educate you right now, so you'll need to ask Dr. Google or someone else.

Sufficed to say there's no such thing as true believers who fall away, that is a lie.

 

[Journey_man]

It is not directed at real people? So the author was just speaking about theoretical people. Try reading this:
…33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to ridicule and persecution; at other times you were partners with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, knowing that you yourselves had a better and permanent possession.
(Hebrews 10:33-34)
He goes into great lengths to describe events that never actually happened

Hebrews 10:33-34 has nothing to do with Hebrews 6

 

[Journey_man]

I’m not confused and I know what I believe. David found mercy with the Lord because he told Nathan that he had sinned against the Lord. David was forgiven of his sin. (KJV 2 Samuel 12:13) David is described in 1 Kings 11:34 as keeping the commandments and statutes of the Lord.

I know God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness according to 1 John 1:9.

You said that you “know that God’s people are not perfect, we still sin and commit murder and adultery and every other kind of sin.”

Christians sometimes commit sins as you mentioned. We must confess our sins to be cleansed from all unrighteousness. David confessed his sins and was forgiven by God. (KJV Romans 4:7) “Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.”

God’s people are to be holy and without blame. (KJV Ephesians 1:4) “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

Titus says that we should deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. (KJV Titus 2:12) “Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”

Those unrepentant adulterers and murderers mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Revelation 21:8 will not inherit the kingdom of God. They are not God’s people.

I believe it is possible for a past murderer or adulterer who has repented and been cleansed from all unrighteousness by the Lord Jesus Christ to inherit the kingdom of God.

(KJV Hebrews 12:14) “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

You still fail to understand that it's not past murderers and adulterers that are forgiven, it's current ones as well. Because the Lord Jesus paid for all the past, present and future sins of Gods elect.

The Bible doctrine of eternal security, clearly states that no amount of sin can cause one of us to lose our salvation. You may not like or agree with this truth, but that doesn't change anything. The truth remains forever, your opinions have no baring on Gods decrees.

David was already saved, (a born again Christian) when he committed adultery and murder. These sins weren't comitted before he became a Christian. So you may need to re-evaluate your theology.

 

[Journey_man]

When someone disagrees with you they usually have some reason to. You cannot avoid the task of exploring their points by pathologizing their disagreement as an expression of some kind of mental disorder for which they need professional help. This condescending approach is a technique of manipulation often called Gas-lighting.

I wasn't suggesting they seek out secular counselling. I assume they can reach out to a Church Minister, he is the only one who can provide professional Godly counsel to a confused Christian. It has nothing to do with a cognitive disorder, we all need someone to teach us and guide us.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

in Hebrews 6:4 - 6:9, the point of the author was not to give a warning to the readers. Instead, he is explicitly reassuring them that their salvation is totally secure. By declaring, 'We are convinced of better things concerning you—things that accompany salvation,' the writer explicitly states that what he just described in verses 4–8 does not apply to them - that he was using it only for edification regarding the unshakable certainty of their salvation

A. First you make the outlandish claim that Hebrews 6:4 is NOT a warning. To be absolutely clear a warning is defined as a statement or event that indicates a possible or impending danger, problem, or other unpleasant situation
B. Hebrews 6:4 states that:

It is impossible for those who have been
a. (once) enlightened, who have
b. tasted the heavenly gift, who have
c. shared in the Holy Spirit, who have
d. tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age—

B. The words enlightened, tasting, sharing [or partaking of] show that the kind of knowledge these people had was not merely academic or intellectual but EXPERIENTIAL. Often, when the Bible talks about TASTING or PARTAKING of something spiritual it not talking about something we can do by merely observing it at a distance. Instead, we are usually being invited to come close in order to consume and INGEST IT to make it a living part of us.
When Psalm 84:8 says:
8 Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!
The command is not merely to take a test sample off the tray but to completely TAKE REFUGE in the Lord which is the only way we can experience that the Lord is good.

The text draws a hard wall between two completely different groups. In verses 4–6, the author uses pronouns like "those" and "themselves" to describe fake believers who fall away. However, in verse 9, he completely switches groups and changes the pronouns to "you" and "we." From/by that distinction we can know he has two separate groups in view, otherwise, the same pronouns would have been used throughout all verses.

A. This simplistic formula is not a rule of grammar that can be used as a hermeneutical method to theologically separate sheep from goats.

B. Hebrews 10:26-31 "26 If WE deliberately keep on sinning after WE have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Though the author uses the third person plural noun I do not think he was necessarily saying he himself WAS one of those who had a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire. However, he obviously believed in the verity of the warning. What this does show is that we cannot use your grammatical formula dogmatically to sort sheep from goats.

C. More evidence that your thesis is wrong can be found in
Hebrews 12:25-29: "See to it that YOU [second person plural] do not refuse him who speaks. If THEY did not escape when THEY refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will WE, if WE turn away from him who warns us from heaven?
Here the author makes the point that is THEY did not escape (judgment) when they turned away from God, neither will we.

 

[rogerg]

A. First you make the outlandish claim that Hebrews 6:4 is NOT a warning. To be absolutely clear a warning is defined as a statement or event that indicates a possible or impending danger, problem, or other unpleasant situation
B. Hebrews 6:4 states that:

It is impossible for those who have been
a. (once) enlightened, who have
b. tasted the heavenly gift, who have
c. shared in the Holy Spirit, who have
d. tasted the goodness of theword of God and the powers of the coming age—

B. The words enlightened, tasting, sharing [or partaking of] show that the kind of knowledge these people had was not merely academic or intellectual but EXPERIENTIAL. Often, when the Bible talks about TASTING or PARTAKING of something spiritual it not talking about something we can do by merely observing it at a distance. Instead, we are usually being invited to come close in order to consume and INGEST IT to make it a living part of us.
When Psalm 84:8 says:
8 Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!
The command is not merely to take a test sample off the tray but to completely TAKE REFUGE in the Lord which is the only way we can experience that the Lord is good.


A. This simplistic formula is not a rule of grammar that can be used as a hermeneutical method to theologically separate sheep from goats.

B. Hebrews 10:26-31 "26 If WE deliberately keep on sinning after WE have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Though the author uses the third person plural noun I do not think he was necessarily saying he himself WAS one of those who had a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire. However, he obviously believed in the verity of the warning. What this does show is that we cannot use your grammatical formula dogmatically to sort sheep from goats.

C. More evidence that your thesis is wrong can be found in
Hebrews 12:25-29: "See to it that YOU [second person plural] do not refuse him who speaks. If THEY did not escape when THEY refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will WE, if WE turn away from him who warns us from heaven?
Here the author makes the point that is THEY did not escape (judgment) when they turned away from God, neither will we.

JimiSurvivor, your own cross-references completely destroy your argument and prove my point. You quote Hebrews 12:25 to try and break my pronoun wall, but you completely ignored verse 28 of that exact same chapter. The author concludes his thought by explicitly stating: "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace." If the elect receive an unmovable kingdom, their eternal salvation cannot be lost or shaken. The warning about not escaping refers to God’s historical, physical chastisement on earth—just like the Israelites who died in the wilderness—not born-again believers losing eternal life.
You also bring up Hebrews 10:26, but you stopped reading before the author draws the exact same wall I pointed out in chapter 6. In Hebrews 10:39, the author explicitly states: "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." The text literally screams that "we are not of them."
The book of Hebrews consistently isolates the fake believers who drop out from the true flock who hold fast. Your beliefs cannot bridge the pronoun walls explicitly written in the verses.

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