Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

[Jason0047]

Jason.....counting the number of commandments in the New Testament?

Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide you into all knowledge?
Didn't Paul say something about putting yokes on others that we cannot bear?

Jesus said, why do you call me "Lord, Lord if you do not what I say?" Jesus gave us commands not so as to be burden to us. Jesus gave us commands to free us. Obeying Jesus is loving God and loving other people. The question you should ask yourself is why on Earth are you so against God's Commands in the New Testament?

Jesus gave us liberty not rules, along with that liberty we are called to not offend others, it's not a license to sin and why would anyone who understands how tremendous a price Jesus paid try to take advantage?

I surely would not and I embrace eternal security. I obey out of love not fear of breaking commandments. Have I confessed a sin after being born again? Yes, but in agreement with God that it is not correct behavior and acknowledge I need His help to change the behavior, however my salvation is not contingent on confession other than the confession my sins are forgiven by the blood of Christ.

Your salvation is contigent on confession and or repentance. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness; 1 John 5:17 says all unrighteousness is sin. Why don't you believe these verses? What do you think they are saying?

Anyways, check out this thread here on the New Testament Commands.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/99639-new-testament-commands.html

 

[kennethcadwell]

What I posted had to do with eternal life and who gets eternal life - one who is saved, receives salvation is one who believes in the name of the only begotten Son of God; confesses him as Lord, believes God raised him from the dead - SAVED. That is salvation.

Once we are born again - we then have the holy Spirit that leads us into doing . .. It is called our WALK.

What I posted from Luke 6:47 has to do with salvation/eternal life also, as the Lord Jesus clearly says in verse 46 why do you call Him your Lord if you do not do what He said.
Can one still get eternal salvation by denying to follow all that He said, I think not. For that shows as He put forth that if He is your Lord you would do as He said.......

You can not claim Jesus to be your Lord and then deny doing His teachings, yet some continue to want to cancel out part, half, and even all of what He said. All three show no true faith and love in Him of those who do that.

 

[Kerry]

Yes, you can be out of fellowship and still love God. If your faith has been shifted by some doctrine or teaching away from the work of the cross, then you are out of fellowship with God even though you love Him. If continued, may lead to further distance from Him and even being bound by sin.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes, you can be out of fellowship and still love God. If your faith has been shifted by some doctrine or teaching away from the work of the cross, then you are out of fellowship with God even though you love Him. If continued, may lead to further distance from Him and even being bound by sin.

Yeah, just go ask the Galatians in the bible as they got deceived into going back to a false doctrine of being justified by the law. Paul tells them they have fallen from God's saving grace....

 

[Kerry]

Yeah, just go ask the Galatians in the bible as they got deceived into going back to a false doctrine of being justified by the law. Paul tells them they have fallen from God's saving grace....

God is a jealous God

 

[peacefulbeliever]

As I said before, the new birth (i.e. being born again) existed for all people thru out all time (Including the saints of the Old Testament period).

Quick Review:
Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.
(Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

​

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

​

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

​

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

​

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

​

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

​

Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

​

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

​

Ezekiel 36:26

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

​

Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

Acts 7:51

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

​

Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

Philippians 3:3

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

​

Romans 2:28-29

28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

​

Colossians 2:11

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ" ​

Been over this before . . . How were they born again of the Spirit if the holy Spirit was not given before the day of Pentecost. It is when I posted this:

Well, Jesus tells us the following:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

And I pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be IN you. John 14:16,17

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

So Christ had to go away before the Comforter [Holy Spirit] could come; yet you say he was IN the OT believers?

The Comforter [Holy Spirit] will abide with you for ever; yet some say he will leave IF. He shall be IN you - immersed, filled - that is baptism with Holy Spirit.

You responded with something about me being confused. The OT believers were saved by their belief in God and following the law to the best of their ability and that is how they will be judged. We are in the body of Christ . . we are already judged righteous and justified by our being born again of the Spirit. Our works that we build upon our foundation - When our works are revealed by fire - if they are gold, silver, precious stones, they will remain, we shall receive rewards and if our works that we build upon our foundation are wood, hay, or stubble they will be burned and we will suffer loss of rewards but we ourselves will be saved.

What does this mean to you Jason?

Gal. 3:22, 23 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to hem that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. . . .

As for your claim that you do not condone evil behavior: Well, that is exactly what you are doing if you believe a sinner can abide in unrepentant sin (i.e. lose fellowship) and be rewarded by God with Him letting them enter into His Kingdom. God is good. He is not evil. He is not going to let His people get away with doing evil anymore than He will let an unbeliever get away with doing evil. For be not deceived. The unrighteous shall not
inherit the Kingdom of God.

You do not understand that God is our Father and our relationship with him is as a family called the household of God, the church, the body of Christ. We enter this family by "birth". You say this "birth" can be taken away. What does "birth/born" mean to you? Apparently, you would disown your children for disobedience but you know what . . your "seed" remains in them and they are still yours and your "seed" is corruptible. When we are born of the Spirit . . that "seed" is incorruptible and the holy Spirit abides with us for ever. [John 14:16,17] That is being born again. Then we begin our WALK.​

 

[peacefulbeliever]

What I posted from Luke 6:47 has to do with salvation/eternal life also, as the Lord Jesus clearly says in verse 46 why do you call Him your Lord if you do not do what He said.
Can one still get eternal salvation by denying to follow all that He said, I think not. For that shows as He put forth that if He is your Lord you would do as He said.......

You can not claim Jesus to be your Lord and then deny doing His teachings, yet some continue to want to cancel out part, half, and even all of what He said. All three show no true faith and love in Him of those who do that.

Were people in the gospels BORN of the Spirit or did the new birth become available at Pentecost?

Kenneth - We believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God - we have eternal life. We believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God - we are born again. The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ comes and dwells in us via the gift of holy Spirit - we are saved. We have received our free gift of salvation through faith by God's grace.

After we are saved we begin our WALK which is our FELLOWSHIP.

. . . whew . . . I am getting to the point where I am just repeating myself and this is going no where because people still want to maintain their salvation by their own works. Salvation is a gift from God . . . our WALK is up to us NOT for salvation but for our relationship/fellowship.

 

[Kerry]

Were people in the gospels BORN of the Spirit or did the new birth become available at Pentecost?

Kenneth - We believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God - we have eternal life. We believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God - we are born again. The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ comes and dwells in us via the gift of holy Spirit - we are saved. We have received our free gift of salvation through faith by God's grace.

After we are saved we begin our WALK which is our FELLOWSHIP.

. . . whew . . . I am getting to the point where I am just repeating myself and this is going no where because people still want to maintain their salvation by their own works. Salvation is a gift from God . . . our WALK is up to us NOT for salvation but for our relationship/fellowship.

So I can cheat on my wife cause I'm saved and no matter what I'm saved. Don't tell the first united bank this. It's you and mine secret okay.

 

[Reborn]

Do you believe in OSAS?
Do you believe you can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved?

Side Note:

As for my final explaination on KOH and KOG (Just so that you might understand):

Speaking to the rich young ruler, Christ uses “kingdom of heaven” and “kingdom of God” interchangeably. “Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven’” (Matthew 19:23). In the very next verse, Christ proclaims, “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” (verse 24). Jesus makes no distinction between the two terms but seems to consider them synonymous.

Read more:What is the difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven?

Yes Jason, I believe 'OSAS'.
It's complicated, but once you are saved you are His....forever.
You can backslide because you are only human, even if you do it multiple times, He knows that you will eventually return, making you saved still.
If you claim to be saved and you backslide and never return, or return and backslide multiple times and then never return, then you were never saved in the first place. (

to answer the can we fall out of fellowship question)

Simple as that. Nothing to debate.

See, everyone in life seems to throw around the term "Saved" as if it's something we can put on and off like a shirt.
It it something we have, are and receive, and we can not explain to others what it means to know that we have obtained it.

And Jason...... "Enter the Kingdom of Heaven" ....the rich man?..........that still goes with the definition that I stated. Yes, it can mean that the man will not enter Heaven literally/eventually, but first the rich man will not understand the deeper things of God....which is AT HAND....for the man in the verse trust is in his riches. He will never be able to understand those deeper things about God that will bring us peace while on earth.....true riches.

It's goes deeper brother than you give Jesus credit for.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, you are being dishonest and here is why...

This understanding that you continue to propagate as doctrine leaves no room for anyone to fail without the loss of salvation, reconciliation and eternal life (Rom 14:4, 5:1,2).

Well, if you have a code of ethics (i.e. a sense of right and wrong) whether you speak or not, you are judging.

In fact, in Romans 14, this is talking about about judging according to Holy days and meat and drink. We are not to judge someone in regards to which day they regard as Holy. We are not to judge what a person eats or drinks unless of course it is poison or something silly.

John 7:24 says, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 says, "For what have I to do with judging outsiders (unbelievers)? Is it not those inside the church (believers) whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

1 Corinthians 14:29 says, "Let two or three prophets speak and let the others judge."

As for your reference to Romans 5:1-2 in support of OSAS:

Well, you also have to read Romans 6:1-2 to get the context. For it says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Then in verse 16 it says, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servant to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Then verse 17 says, "that ye were servants of sin." Meaning, we used to be that way, but we are not that way anymore. However, verse 16 does not remove the possibility of presently serving sin, though; And doing such a thing leads unto death.

Jason, what you fail to understand is that God has put away a multitude of sin in your life that you never acknowledged or confessed. You committed it either willfully or involuntarily and it was part of your life, but you never confessed it to God because it was so deeply embedded in your subconscious mind and heart. It had to do with wicked imaginations and thoughts (Gen 6:5, 8:21, Deut 31:21, Jer 3:17, 7:24,

Rom 1:21, 2 Cor 3:3-7) that were conceived in the chamber of imagery (Ez 8) we all have within the mind. Love covered those wicked imaginations that were sinful and full of iniquity and they were put away without God having to bring them to your remembrance or putting them before your face. Did you know that presumption is a great transgression (Ps 19:13) and when you presume against a brother you have transgressed and it falls way short of loving your brother? If you were to try and search out these things in your own life God would not show them to you because He saw them and put them away through the shed blood of Christ.

Bottom line for you and all of us is that we have unconfessed sin in our life, every single one of us, and God has covered those sins and has put them away. To deny that is to live a lie and not the truth. We thank God for his great love wherein he has loved us and for the multitude of sins he has covered by that love. You may not want to admit to this and that would be nothing less then self righteousness on your part that always leads to evil through a contrived intellectual understanding that has nothing to do with the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:16 says there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death. Sins that do not lead unto death are sins that will not cause spiritual death such as falling short of the glory of God or making your brother to stumble when you did not realize that you did such a thing. Sins unto death are sins that will cause you not to inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul says be not deceived. The unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. 1 John 1:9 is tied to 1 John 2:1; This is important to undeerstand because 1 John 2:1 is addressed to the believer in regards to what to do if they sin. There are no chapter breaks in the Bible and the flow of conversation from 1 John 1:9 to 1 John 2:1 has not changed. The person in whom John is writing to with his epistle is believers (Not unbelievers). "We" in 1 John 1:9 is John speaking about himself and all believers. This cannot be a reference to just coming to the faith for the first time. But a continual thing we do with our Lord. For there is no indication in the text here that this is an entrance into God's Kingdom. It is talking about a continued walk with the Lord.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Were people in the gospels BORN of the Spirit or did the new birth become available at Pentecost?

Kenneth - We believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God - we have eternal life. We believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God - we are born again. The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ comes and dwells in us via the gift of holy Spirit - we are saved. We have received our free gift of salvation through faith by God's grace.

After we are saved we begin our WALK which is our FELLOWSHIP.

. . . whew . . . I am getting to the point where I am just repeating myself and this is going no where because people still want to maintain their salvation by their own works. Salvation is a gift from God . . . our WALK is up to us NOT for salvation but for our relationship/fellowship.

You can not take and cancel out the people in that the Lord was talking to in gospel books, just because you want to say they were not born of the Spirit yet. That is the wrong approach to going at that.

The Lord was teaching them the milk of the gospel, the first steps that a believer in Him are to take and then gave some insight on the rest of our walk. That He then left up to Paul to give the meat of the word.
But all that the Lord taught in the gospels was for all of us, not just for Israel or those who came before Pentecost........

We know this because most to all of those teachings was given to the Apostles, which He then commissioned to go out and teach the rest of us to obey all that He taught them. Those who teach His words were only for Israel, or those before Pentecost teach falsely. For even after Pentecost the Apostles still carried out those same teachings, they did not do away with them !!!

 

[Jason0047]

My life is a learning tool for others. I've shared just about everything but my bank account numbers on here. I'm not afraid to let people know what my life is like and how God has shaped it.

I also don't say thing like you can be out of fellowship and then backpedal with backsliding caveats to cover up my loopholes.

Your life is not my life. There are things that I consider to be precious in my personal life with God. Sharing what is precious to those who do not seek to love me but to attack me is not wise. For if I share something good and precious in my life, you and or others will fiind a way to turn it into something ugly. You know, that whole "don't cast your pearls before...." saying in Scripture?

 

[Jason0047]

Yes, you can be out of fellowship and still love God. If your faith has been shifted by some doctrine or teaching away from the work of the cross, then you are out of fellowship with God even though you love Him. If continued, may lead to further distance from Him and even being bound by sin.

What you are saying is that you can have your cake and eat it, too. Meaning you can have God and partake of your sin, too. Your can serve two masters if you like. God and sin. But it doesn't work like that, though. For Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other.

 

[Jason0047]

I don't have a problem with 1 John 2:1 and 1 John 1:6-9. I understand that those verses have nothing to do with my salvation but apply to my WALK as a Christian.

We can stumble back into an "unsaved" state? So when we are born again that "seed" is corruptible or incorruptible? We can lose the Spirit that we were born again with [That which is born of the Spirit is spirit] and have to be born again, again? What does "born" mean?

I never said that 2 Timothy 4:6,7 supported the title of this thread . . . This is what I said: So did Paul finally attain perfection in his flesh at the end of his days when he said: For I am now ready to be offered, and the time o my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, have finished my course, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 4:6,7


You are assuming to know me and my walk with God by assuming that I do not humble myself before God . . . I will reply with the same statement that you used on a previous post: You are not Jesus to know my heart and thoughts or my walk with God.

1 John 2:1 and 1 John 1:6-9 do apply to salvation and not to some so called walk as you woulld like it to be. First, 1 John 1:9 says we are actually cleansed of unrighteousness by confessing. 1 John 5:17 says all unrighteousness is sin. So 1 John 1:9 is saying you are being cleansed of sin if you confess. This runs contrary to the false OSAS teaching that says all your future sin is forgiven magically somehow. Also, OSAS believers claim they have the blood by their belief on Jesus Christ. Yet 1 John 1:7 says the blood only cleanses us from all sin if we walk in the light as he is in the light. Light here is in reference to righteousness and or obedience to God's commands (See 1 John 2:3-6).

God and His Word are incorruptible. You are not incorruptibe. You can still sin and fall into corrupton. So you are not free from being incorruptible. That would be double talk non sense to make such a claim. When a person is born again of incorruptible seed, it is speaking about God's seed. A spiritual regeneration and washing. There is nothing in Scripture that states that a believer cannot fall prey to corruption. I have already provided a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation within this thread.

As for your reference to cute phrases about being born again - again: The reality is that if somebody is dead spiritually, they need a spiritual rebirth, whether they are an unbeliever or whether they are a believer who has backslidden into sin whereby they can be converted back to the faith thru confession or repentance (See James 5:19-20; 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9).

As for your 2 Timothy 4 quote: Well, you can say that you have fought the good fight. That is all fine and dandy. But if you teach that a believer can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved, then you are teaching that people can sin and still be saved. So it doesn't matter if you confess your sins and live like a saint or not. Your doctrine is going to place blood on your hands for telling people it is okay that they can think they can be out of fellowship (by sinning) with the thinking they are saved.

 

[Jason0047]

Context John 3:16-21

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth NOT is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation that light has come into the world and men [those that believe NOT, condemned already] loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil.

For everyone that doeth evil [those that believe NOT, condemned already] hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth [one who believes] cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in God.

So evil deeds are not okay for the unbeliever but they are okay for the believer? No, the passage does not say those who do not believe only. It just says those who do come to the light and gives us a reason why. Because their deeds are evil. Please notice that it says, "lest his deeds should be reproved." Look at the verse and the last words you did not bother to highlight. What do you have to reprove someone's deeds for if they can just have an OSAS type belief and make it thru the gates of Paradise? OSAS believers who believe they can sin and still be saved have not come to the light. Many of them do not believe you even need to have your deeds reproved. You are saved by a belief only. But that is not what the Scriptures say, though.

Also, if an unbeliever is categorized as loving darkness because their deeds are were evil, then how can a believer be the same way?

 

[Jason0047]

Been over this before . . . How were they born again of the Spirit if the holy Spirit was not given before the day of Pentecost. It is when I posted this:

You responded with something about me being confused. The OT believers were saved by their belief in God and following the law to the best of their ability and that is how they will be judged. We are in the body of Christ . . we are already judged righteous and justified by our being born again of the Spirit. Our works that we build upon our foundation - When our works are revealed by fire - if they are gold, silver, precious stones, they will remain, we shall receive rewards and if our works that we build upon our foundation are wood, hay, or stubble they will be burned and we will suffer loss of rewards but we ourselves will be saved.

What does this mean to you Jason?

Gal. 3:22, 23 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to hem that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. . . .

You do not understand that God is our Father and our relationship with him is as a family called the household of God, the church, the body of Christ. We enter this family by "birth". You say this "birth" can be taken away. What does "birth/born" mean to you? Apparently, you would disown your children for disobedience but you know what . . your "seed" remains in them and they are still yours and your "seed" is corruptible. When we are born of the Spirit . . that "seed" is incorruptible and the holy Spirit abides with us for ever. [John 14:16,17] That is being born again. Then we begin our WALK.​

As I said before (And which you are ignoring), John the Baptist had the Holy Ghost since his birth (Please see Luke 1:15). So this refutes any false thinking that the Holy Spirit was not given to any Old Testament saints. David in Psalm 51 also asked the Lord not take His Holy Spirit from him when he was repenting of his sins of murder and adultery, too.

As for your reference to Christ: Well, in 1 Peter 1:10-11, it says that the Spirit of Christ who was in the prophets testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ. So Christ was within the prophets. This means that they were regenerated. For God cannot dwell within a spirit that is fallen and depraved. God can only dwell in a spirit that is regenerated. For God hates sin and cannot stand the presence of sin.

In fact, even those who passed thru the red sea drank of the spiritual rock of Jesus Christ (who followed behind them in the red sea).

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

​

As for your reference to the Judgement Seat of Christ in regards to our works: Well, please take note that there are no individuals present there who do not have no works. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Not that we are saved by works. We are saved by God's grace and in abiding with Christ. Abiding with Christ will naturally yield fruitful results. Meaning, God will do the work in you. This is why the elders cast their crowns down before Jesus in Revelation.

Is God's people (i.e. the Nation of Israel) saved even though they deny Jesus as their Messiah? No. They were cut off. We (the Gentiles) are admonished to continue in his goodness or we too can be cut off. Do you know where it says that in Scripture?

Also, when you read Galatians 3, you also have to read Galatians 5:4 that says if we seek to be justified by the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses), we are then fallen from grace. Meaning, how can you fall from something that you can't fall from? You can seek to go back to OT Law and fall from God's grace. So OSAS is not true.

 

[Jason0047]

As I said before (And which you are ignoring), John the Baptist had the Holy Ghost since his birth (Please see Luke 1:15). So this refutes any false thinking that the Holy Spirit was not given to any Old Testament saints. David in Psalm 51 also asked the Lord not take His Holy Spirit from him when he was repenting of his sins of murder and adultery, too.

As for your reference to Christ: Well, in 1 Peter 1:10-11, it says that the Spirit of Christ who was in the prophets testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ. So Christ was within the prophets. This means that they were regenerated. For God cannot dwell within a spirit that is fallen and depraved. God can only dwell in a spirit that is regenerated. For God hates sin and cannot stand the presence of sin.

In fact, even those who passed thru the red sea drank of the spiritual rock of Jesus Christ (who followed behind them in the red sea).

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

​

As for your reference to the Judgement Seat of Christ in regards to our works: Well, please take note that there are no individuals present there who do not have no works. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Not that we are saved by works. We are saved by God's grace and in abiding with Christ. Abiding with Christ will naturally yield fruitful results. Meaning, God will do the work in you. This is why the elders cast their crowns down before Jesus in Revelation.

Is God's people (i.e. the Nation of Israel) saved even though they deny Jesus as their Messiah? No. They were cut off. We (the Gentiles) are admonished to continue in his goodness or we too can be cut off. Do you know where it says that in Scripture?

Also, when you read Galatians 3, you also have to read Galatians 5:4 that says if we seek to be justified by the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses), we are then fallen from grace. Meaning, how can you fall from something that you can't fall from? You can seek to go back to OT Law and fall from God's grace. So OSAS is not true.

Side Note: Please take note that I believe God has cast away His people (Israel) for good, though. I believe Israel as a nation will one day repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah sometime shortly before His return.

 

[Jason0047]

Also, as for the whole once a son always a son type reference:

First, nowhere does Scripture hint or even allude to this type of thinking. In fact, the Scriptures say that the children of the Kingdom will be cast into outer darkness. Second, all sin is ultimately done towards God. So it would be as if your son tried to kill you, your spouse, and your entire family. Do you get it? Would you still feel the same way if your son did kill your entire family; And tried to kill you but you came back to life from off the operating table? Would you still feel the same way? Would you still love him like you did before if you got a phone call shortly afterwards where he said, he is coming to kill you? What if his plan was to kill everyone in America? Would you still feel the same about him? Would you still feel like he was a part of the family?

Granted, we are commanded by God to love and forgiven him, but that does not mean we would have a natural affection for his current behavior or bad character and welcome him home so that he can kill us. For loving a person also is based on a person's character, too. For a smart person does not marry an individual who is constantly being unfaithful towards them; And that is what God is going to do someday in the future. He is going to marry His bride. Do you really think God is going to choose the disloyal and rebellious servant of God to marry? What type of bride does God marry? It is a virgin bride. One who has been faithful.

Read Matthew chapter 7 and ask God to help you to understand it and then think about it.

 

[Jason0047]

Side Note: Please take note that I believe God has cast away His people (Israel) for good, though. I believe Israel as a nation will one day repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah sometime shortly before His return.

Edit:

Meant to say HAS NOT cast away his people (Israel).

 

[Jason0047]

I also will take my chances on what the Bible says and NOT what I would want to be true. All those that have Jesus Christ as their Lord are saved . . . They are born again by the Spirit of God . . . they are now indwelt by the holy Spirit. They were born once by corruptible seed but born again of incorruptible seed. They are promised eternal life. They now belong to the household of God as a child of God - that is their standing within the household; the body of Christ.

Then there is our WALK, our relationship and fellowship with God, his Son and with the household of God. Our state within the family can fluctuate - sometimes we will be out of fellowship due to our behavior - Do we lose our position as a son or daughter or our we disciplined, chastised?

Our WALK can be a battle because the flesh lusts after the Spirit and the Spirit lusts after the flesh. We still contend with our "old man" [fleshly, carnal nature] - that is why God tells us to renew our minds and become transformed, to put off the old man with his former conversation - it is corrupt. We are to put on the new man, the inner man, which is created in righteousness and true holiness. The epistles are full of instructions for us to do that pertain with our old man - mortify the deeds of the flesh, put off the old man, etc. If there was to be no difficulty, no warring within our members, no chance for us to sin in our WALK, God would not have taught us through scripture HOW TO WALK. If our flesh as transformed as soon as we were born again, it would be a breeze to walk by the Spirit but our flesh is with us until we die or until we see Jesus face to face and then we will be fully perfected.

Bottom line ANYONE who is truly born again will desire to do good and be pleasing to God, our Father.

Now you are backpeddling. Before you said that a believer can be out fellowship with God (Which implies a sinful lifestyle) and still be saved. So what you just said here above does not mean anything (Unless of course you are having second thoughts about a sin and still be saved type doctrine).