Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

[Jason0047]

So you are implying that everytime a believer sins they are not fully cleansed until they confess those specific sins? Are believers lost all over again every single time they sin and are not cleansed all over again until they confess every specific sin? What happens if they forget a sin? I believe that John has in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing an forgiveness since what he said in verse 9 is IN CONTRAST to what he said in verse 8 - "If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" AND verse 10 - "If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

At least we are in agreement on this, unlike newbirth. He believes we ARE saved by works.

Amen! Good works are certainly the demonstrative evidence that one has been saved by grace through faith, but good works are not the means of our salvation. Faith in Christ is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation.

If we are in a right relationship with God, then repentance and confession are not just a one time event and then we do a 180 and completely go the other way later, but are ongoing.

This is an oxymoron for believers. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor the one who does not love his brother.

Genuine believers confess their sins, and are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, IN CONTRAST TO those who SAY they have no sin, deceiving themselves and the TRUTH IS NOT IN THEM (1 John 1:8) and have not sinned and make Him a liar and HIS WORD IS NOT IN THEM (1 John 1:10).

Don't have time to give a complete reply yet. But I just want to say that I do not believe God immediately withdraws his Spirit if we sin. We can see this in Psalm 51. David is repenting of his sin of adultery and murder and he is asking the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit from him. But the fact that David is asking such a thing suggests that David could lose the Spirit if he did not repent under the conviction of the Spirit. Meaning, if we do not repent after God has convicted us of our sin and we keep shaking our head with arms foled in rebellion against him, then how can you be forgiven? We have to be sorrowful for our sin against God. That is the basics. 2 Corinthians 7:10 talks about how there is Godly sorrow and a worldly sorrow. Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. The other kind of sorrow leads unto death. Judas was sorry. Sorry he got caught. Sorry it did not work out like he thought. But his sorrow was not Godly sorrow. One needs to repent and be broken up about their sin before God. For sin is separation betweeen God and man. That has never changed since the Garden.

 

[newbirth]

So you are implying that everytime a believer sins they are not fully cleansed until they confess those specific sins? Are believers lost all over again every single time they sin and are not cleansed all over again until they confess every specific sin? What happens if they forget a sin? I believe that John has in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing an forgiveness since what he said in verse 9 is IN CONTRAST to what he said in verse 8 - "If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" AND verse 10 - "If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

At least we are in agreement on this, unlike newbirth. He believes we ARE saved by works.

Amen! Good works are certainly the demonstrative evidence that one has been saved by grace through faith, but good works are not the means of our salvation. Faith in Christ is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation.

If we are in a right relationship with God, then repentance and confession are not just a one time event and then we do a 180 and completely go the other way later, but are ongoing.

This is an oxymoron for believers. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor the one who does not love his brother.

Genuine believers confess their sins, and are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, IN CONTRAST TO those who SAY they have no sin, deceiving themselves and the TRUTH IS NOT IN THEM (1 John 1:8) and have not sinned and make Him a liar and HIS WORD IS NOT IN THEM (1 John 1:10).

newbirth believes we are saved by grace through faith...and faith without works is dead....if works show that you are saved and you have no works...are you saved??? if water dripping from you shows you are wet....if no water is dripping from you then you are not wet...(not the best comparison but close enough) it is either you are hot or cold wet or dry...saved or unsaved with sin or without sin...following or not following...faith with works or faith without works.

 

[Jason0047]

Don't have time to give a complete reply yet. But I just want to say that I do not believe God immediately withdraws his Spirit if we sin. We can see this in Psalm 51. David is repenting of his sin of adultery and murder and he is asking the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit from him. But the fact that David is asking such a thing suggests that David could lose the Spirit if he did not repent under the conviction of the Spirit. Meaning, if we do not repent after God has convicted us of our sin and we keep shaking our head with arms foled in rebellion against him, then how can you be forgiven? We have to be sorrowful for our sin against God. That is the basics. 2 Corinthians 7:10 talks about how there is Godly sorrow and a worldly sorrow. Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. The other kind of sorrow leads unto death. Judas was sorry. Sorry he got caught. Sorry it did not work out like he thought. But his sorrow was not Godly sorrow. One needs to repent and be broken up about their sin before God. For sin is separation betweeen God and man. That has never changed since the Garden.

Edit:

Sorry about the typo. Meant to say arms "folded" not foled.

 

[Jason0047]

As for forgetting a sin:

Well, you have to understand that there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16). Sins that do not lead unto death are hidden and or secret faults (Psalm 19:12), falling short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), and sins that are confessed or cleansed (1 John 1:9). Sins unto death are those sins such as murder, idolatry, hate, lust, theft, and drunkenness, etc.

If God abides in you, then He will not allow you to forget about a sin that leads unto death (Such as killing, lying, or lusting). God will convict you by His Spirit. If a person refuses God's conviction to repent, then the Lord will depart from them. Then their life will be out of fellowship with God. They will know deep down they will need to repent.

Note: Confession of sins applies to the believer and not the person who is accepting Christ for the first time.

 

[Jason0047]

1 john 1:9 says we are cleansed of sin if we confess. Folks either believe that verse or they don't believe it. However, how can you be forgiven if there are still sins on your record that need to be cleansed?

Think about it.

Note: This talking to believers and not unbelievers (or those who are coming to Christ for the first time).

 

[notuptome]

1 john 1:9 says we are cleansed of sin if we confess. Folks either believe that verse or they don't believe it. However, how can you be forgiven if there are still sins on your record that need to be cleansed?

I doubt that anyone would say they do not believe that verse. Many would be quick to say that they do not believe that you have a correct understanding of that verse.

Have you ever been in fellowship with God? I do not understand how anyone with a critical bitter spirit can claim to fellowship with God who teaches that we are to forgive even our enemies.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jason0047]

I doubt that anyone would say they do not believe that verse. Many would be quick to say that they do not believe that you have a correct understanding of that verse.

Have you ever been in fellowship with God? I do not understand how anyone with a critical bitter spirit can claim to fellowship with God who teaches that we are to forgive even our enemies.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes, I am in fellowship with God all the time. However, you need the Scriptures more if you think God's people cannot judge that which is evil. It's not wrong to point out bad behavior. Believers are kicked out of a church if they are causing sin within it. Jesus said judge righteous judgment. Paul says we are not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but we are to rather reprove them.

Anyways, if you disagree with my plain reading of 1 John 1:9, then please tell me what you think it says.

 

[Jason0047]

As for forgetting a sin:

Well, you have to understand that there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16). Sins that do not lead unto death are hidden and or secret faults (Psalm 19:12), falling short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), and sins that are confessed or cleansed (1 John 1:9). Sins unto death are those sins such as murder, idolatry, hate, lust, theft, and drunkenness, etc.

If God abides in you, then He will not allow you to forget about a sin that leads unto death (Such as killing, lying, or lusting). God will convict you by His Spirit. If a person refuses God's conviction to repent, then the Lord will depart from them. Then their life will be out of fellowship with God. They will know deep down they will need to repent.

Note: Confession of sins applies to the believer and not the person who is accepting Christ for the first time.

In 1 John 5:16, the brethren are told to pray to give "life" or victory in a fellow brother or sister's sin that does not lead unto death. This is primarily confessed sin that they are struggling with. If the brethren is praying for this person, they will gain victory over their sin that they are struggling with.

 

[Jason0047]

Not with God. You confess your sins and then you seek God's help to forsake them. This is repentance.

You have to walk the walk before you talk the talk is a human expression of doing something instead of just talking about it. This does not apply to the act of repentance. Besides, many OSAS proponents do not believe that the walk is not necessary for your salvation. It's only belief that saves. Which contradicts the Bible.



Again, 1 John 1:9 says we are forgiven of sin and cleansed of unrighteousness by confessing. In the OSAS false worldview, all sin is cleansed the moment you believe. All past present and future sin is gone. No more. But 1 John 1:9 acts like sin still needs to be cleansed for the believer. This is also the case for James 5:15.

However, your view on James 5:15 is not correct, though. James 5:15 does not teach teach OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). For there is no OSAS in James 5:15. For your wrong interpretation does not take into context the following verses that follow it. You isolate the one verse that you prefer so as to fit your theology without looking at any of the other verses. The context of verses 15 that says: "IF he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him" is connected to verse 16 that says, "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed." In other words, verse 16 is clarifying verse 15. Both verse 15 and 16 say to pray for one another for healing and both verses deal with a believer's sins and how they will be forgiven (or healed). Meaning, if you confess your faults (sins) to the brethren (because you are struggling with that fault), and you are sick, then the brethren can pray over you and give you victory or life in overcoming that sin along with any sickness that might be attached to it. Praying to give one life or victory over sin can be seen in 1 John 5:16. It's about a sin they are struggling to overcome. Hence, why they are sick. Also, if their sins need to be forgiven, then why were they not taken care of? This is why the sick brother who is struggling with sin needs to confess their faults (sins) to other brethren so they can be healed both spiritually and physically. For the other brethren are walking righteously and can pray for him. For the same chapter says, the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. So this believer who is sick and is struggling with sin needs the prayers of his righteous brethren. He is seeking to get right with God before the church and or other believers.

For verses 19-20 talk about if one of the brethren does err from the truth (into backsliding into sin or the error of their ways), the fellow brother (or sister) can convert them back to the faith which will in effect save their soul from death and cover their sins (Because they helped them to repent).

James 5:13-16
"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."



As I had said before, when a person comes to the faith in accepting Christ, they don't need to confess every single sin. We are not talking about unbelievers or new converts here. We are talking about believers in Jesus Christ. For a new convert merely needs to acknowledge they are a sinner and feel sorrowful that they have sinned against God. Confession of sin is generally for believers. Hence, why 1 John 2:1 and 1 John 1:9 is addressed to the believer to confess their sin to Christ so as to be cleansed of their unrighteousness and or forgiven of their sin.


...

While both 1 John 5:16 and James 5:15 deal with the brethren praying for a fellow believer's sin. However, I want to clarify the difference between 1 John 5:16 and James 5:15, though. In 1 John 5:16, the man who is stuggling with the sin that does not lead unto death is saved before the brethren pray for him. This is because he has been confessing his sins and is desiring to serve God in righteousness. In James 5:15, the man who has not been prayed for yet needs to be saved. He needs to confess his faults (sins) to God. The man wanting to be healed physically will be taken to the brethren and will be guided to admit his guilt or sins before God in their presence. He will be forgiven of his sins and healed if he cooperates.

 

[notuptome]

Yes, I am in fellowship with God all the time. However, you need the Scriptures more if you think God's people cannot judge that which is evil. It's not wrong to point out bad behavior. Believers are kicked out of a church if they are causing sin within it. Jesus said judge righteous judgment. Paul says we are not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but we are to rather reprove them.

Anyways, if you disagree with my plain reading of 1 John 1:9, then please tell me what you think it says.

Here is the problem. The word of God is quick and powerful dividing asunder the thoughts and intents of the heart. The word of God is not a bludgeon with which you go about hitting folks over the head and beating them into submission.

Clean up your own act and learn to love and forgive them of the fellowship of the faith. Live so close to Christ that you do not need to be critical and caustic to reprove of sin and unrighteousness.

Sinners know they are sinners and you need not rub their noses in their sin. They will only resent you for being a hypocrite.

If you are in fellowship with God all the time then God must overlook your shortcomings because of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jason0047]

Here is the problem. The word of God is quick and powerful dividing asunder the thoughts and intents of the heart. The word of God is not a bludgeon with which you go about hitting folks over the head and beating them into submission.

Clean up your own act and learn to love and forgive them of the fellowship of the faith. Live so close to Christ that you do not need to be critical and caustic to reprove of sin and unrighteousness.

Sinners know they are sinners and you need not rub their noses in their sin. They will only resent you for being a hypocrite.

If you are in fellowship with God all the time then God must overlook your shortcomings because of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

See, now you're judging and being critical. You are breaking your own rules. You attack me personally instead of the doctrine. I will ask you again. For I know you are avoiding the issue. Explain what each word is saying in 1 John 1:9. Offer me your complete commentary on it. Explain to me how we are forgiven of sin or cleansed of unrighteousness thru confession. I say this because you believe you are already cleansed and that your sins are already forgiven for all time; Even future sin. Explain your belief of this in light of 1 John 1:9. It just doesn't make any sense.

Oh, and this is not a passage for someone who is going to accept Christ because the passage says "we."

 

[kennethcadwell]

See, now you're judging and being critical. You are breaking your own rules. You attack me personally instead of the doctrine. I will ask you again. For I know you are avoiding the issue. Explain what each word is saying in 1 John 1:9. Offer me your complete commentary on it. Explain to me how we are forgiven of sin or cleansed of unrighteousness thru confession. I say this because you believe you are already cleansed and that your sins are already forgiven for all time; Even future sin. Explain your belief of this in light of 1 John 1:9. It just doesn't make any sense.

Oh, and this is not a passage for someone who is going to accept Christ because the passage says "we."

Not to mention how I keep telling those who believe future sins can not be accounted to them before even committed and then confessed to receive remission.
1st and 2nd Timothy.................Here you have the Apostle Paul talking to the Apostle Timothy, and Paul tells Timothy that he needs to keep himself pure, because future sins can make him impure again.

 

[Jason0047]

While both 1 John 5:16 and James 5:15 deal with the brethren praying for a fellow believer's sin. However, I want to clarify the difference between 1 John 5:16 and James 5:15, though. In 1 John 5:16, the man who is stuggling with the sin that does not lead unto death is saved before the brethren pray for him. This is because he has been confessing his sins and is desiring to serve God in righteousness. In James 5:15, the man who has not been prayed for yet needs to be saved. He needs to confess his faults (sins) to God. The man wanting to be healed physically will be taken to the brethren and will be guided to admit his guilt or sins before God in their presence. He will be forgiven of his sins and healed if he cooperates.

For obviously if the man in James 5:15 was kicking and screaming that he did not want to repent or be healed, he wouldn't be forced against his will to be amongst the other brethren to be anointed with oil and healed both spiritually and physically. The only reason his sins need forgiving is if his heart needs to get right with God.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Originally Posted by Jason0047

Let's get something straight here, most people do not come to the conclusion of OSAS by reading the Bible on their own. Most people believe OSAS because somebody told them to believe that. Also, we are all created in God's image. That doesn't mean we are God.

Originally Posted by GracethroughfaithinChrist

This statement of yours is proof of you being a dead man. No getting around it my friend, and no use for us to waste anymore time on dead men.

Jason please forgive me for these words i spoke against you, it was wrong for me to step outside of the command to love and forgive you my brother, differences in interpretation of the Word is no excuse for that kind of behavior and i apologize for that offense. May these words soothe any wrong i may have caused to you in speaking them.

Friends, may our Good Father, through Christ and according to His mercy show all of us here that good and perfect way of peace and love for each other by healing our hearts as He continues to bring us into the knowledge of His perfect will.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Not to mention how I keep telling those who believe future sins can not be accounted to them before even committed and then confessed to receive remission.
1st and 2nd Timothy.................Here you have the Apostle Paul talking to the Apostle Timothy, and Paul tells Timothy that he needs to keep himself pure, because future sins can make him impure again.

BUT -2 Corinthians 5:19 - To wit God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses against them; . . . . what does this mean?

 

[Jason0047]

Originally Posted by Jason0047
Originally Posted by GracethroughfaithinChrist

Jason please forgive me for these words i spoke against you, it was wrong for me to step outside of the command to love and forgive you my brother, differences in interpretation of the Word is no excuse for that kind of behavior and i apologize for that offense. May these words soothe any wrong i may have caused to you in speaking them.

Friends, may our Good Father, through Christ and according to His mercy show all of us here that good and perfect way of peace and love for each other by healing our hearts as He continues to bring us into the knowledge of His perfect will.

It's okay, my friend; Nothing to forgive.

I have nothing but love towards you, anyways. I am commanded by God love and forgive everyone. But thank you for your words, though. May the Lord's love shine upon you greatly today.

 

[newbirth]

BUT -2 Corinthians 5:19 - To wit God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses against them; . . . . what does this mean?

we all came to God with trespasses...he does not hold them against us...it says nothing about trespasses we don't have...else we would not need a mediator....

 

[Kerry]

Yes we can still be saved and out of fellowship, Jesus said I will leave the 99 and go after the one.

 

[1joseph]

BUT -2 Corinthians 5:19 - To wit God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses against them; . . . . what does this mean?

Yes, and how wonderful a thing, God bringing us back to himself (reconciling us) by blotting out our sins and making us righteous.

And, if you continue reading, in verse 21 we are told:

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

When we trust in Christ, we make an exchange---our sin for his righteousness.

Our sin was poured into Christ at our conversion. This is what we Christians mean by atonement for sin. In the world, bartering works only when two people exchange goods of relatively equal value. But God offers to trade his righteousness for our sin---something of immeasurable worth for something completely worthless.

How grateful we should be for his kindness to us.

 

[Jason0047]

Not to mention how I keep telling those who believe future sins can not be accounted to them before even committed and then confessed to receive remission.
1st and 2nd Timothy.................Here you have the Apostle Paul talking to the Apostle Timothy, and Paul tells Timothy that he needs to keep himself pure, because future sins can make him impure again.

1 Timothy 5:22
"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure."