Can't Stop SINNING

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GWH said:
Here is how I analyze the problem:

No one achieves moral perfection in this life (Phil. 3:12), but no one who lacks divine love will reap eternal life with God (Gal. 6:7-8). Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (Phil. 3:12-16),

b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:11-15)

c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1Cor. 6:9-11, Eph. 5:8-9),

d. a back-slider or prodigal Christian, who has yet to learn by painful experience the value of learning to cooperate with God’s will.

e. a pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, 1John 2:19), who may affirm morality while rejecting its divine rationale.

f. an apostate (Heb. 6:4-6, 10:23-39), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1Tim. 1:19-20), becoming completely corrupt and callous (Matt. 13:14-15, Heb. 6:4-6).

Paul listed some sins he implied genuine Christians would not typically commit (in 1Cor. 6:9-10), saying: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Apparently, although a new Christian might commit such sins occasionally, it is inconceivable (because antithetical to NT teaching) that a mature Christian would commit them so typically that the person could be classified as an adulterer, for example (1John 3:6). Back-sliding is the opposite of standing firm or persevering. Atheists might try to practice the “Golden Rule”, but the key issue for them on judgment day will be explaining what good reason they had for rejecting God rather than glorifying Him as the One who determines what is good/golden.

Sinners can overcome selfishness only by becoming one with Christ via faith in Him/God as Lord and thereby sharing His goodness because of union with His/God’s Holy Spirit. This spiritual union is denoted by references to those who have saving faith as children of God the Father (Rom. 8:14-16). This is why Christianity is a relationship with God motivated by gratitude for God’s grace (Psa. 100, Eph. 2:4-8) rather than a legalistic religion of working to merit God’s mercy because of fear of punishment.
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You write,' no one reaches moral perfection in this life. Phil 3:12'.
However, Paul writes in verse 15 of that chapter,' Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude.....'.
This shows that there is a 'perfection' attainable in this life. Paul includes himself as 'perfect' by using the word 'us'.
Is Paul contradicting himself by saying he is not perfect in v 12, and then saying he is in v15 ?.
The answer is no. He is talking about two different perfections. In v12, Paul is talking about absolute resurrection perfection that one attains in Heaven. The perfection in v15 is the perfection that Jesus mentioned when He called us 'to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect'. The context of Jesus' command is love. We are to be perfect in love. Having our hearts so filled with God's love that sin is dispelled. A pure heart. A holy heart.
 
Aussie52 said:
You write,' no one reaches moral perfection in this life. Phil 3:12'.
However, Paul writes in verse 15 of that chapter,' Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude.....'.
This shows that there is a 'perfection' attainable in this life. Paul includes himself as 'perfect' by using the word 'us'.
Is Paul contradicting himself by saying he is not perfect in v 12, and then saying he is in v15 ?.
The answer is no. He is talking about two different perfections. In v12, Paul is talking about absolute resurrection perfection that one attains in Heaven. The perfection in v15 is the perfection that Jesus mentioned when He called us 'to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect'. The context of Jesus' command is love. We are to be perfect in love. Having our hearts so filled with God's love that sin is dispelled. A pure heart. A holy heart.
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You cite a good question prompted by the KJV, but the correct harmonization is found in the NIV: Verse 15 should be translated as "mature" (relative perfection), because absolute perfection--perfect divine love--is not attained until heaven per verse 12, as you said.
The command of Jesus in Matt. 5:44 is a goal not reached until heaven.
 
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Aussie52 said:
It is really rather sad that so many seem to justify a 'sinning Christianity'. We have been told so many times that 'no one's perfect', we are just sinners saved by grace, Romans 7 describes the normal Chrisian life'.

No wonder the level of Christian experience is so low. Vance Havner once said,' the average Christian is such, that you have to backslide to have fellowship with him'.

Is this sin defeated Christianity all there is? Is God unable to 'save us from sin'? Was Christ's atonement just too weak to cause us to be overcomers? If you follow much that has been written here, in this Forum we are just to battle on as best we can.

But my Bible tells me otherwise. It tells me Jesus came to save us FROM our sins. Not IN our sins. My Bible tells me that Christ has destroyed all the works of the Enemy. Isn't sin one of those works? My Bible tells me that Jesus came to save us to the uttermost.

So if you want to just wallow in your cycle of sinning and repenting, happy to just get by, well, I feel sorry for you.
As for me, I want to appropriate the victory over sin that Jesus has for me through the power of the Spirit. I want to live a Romans 8 experience. More than a conqueror through Christ.
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Right? God gave us the Holy Spirit to cause His people to obey Him and resist sin more and more. No Christian has any excuse not to grow in godly, Christlikeness. We're suppose to sin less and less as we continue in life with Jesus. That is the fruit of the Holy Spirit who is the mark of God's ownership of a Christian.

If a Christian hasn't changed much, they should ask God if they're really saved and if not, then truly repent and submit to God and receive His is Holy Spirit. There is always apparent godly change because of the Holy Spirit.


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hornetguy said:
Yep. THAT is correct.... we sin less and less, as we become more like Jesus.

Do we ever attain sinlessness? Nope.
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Oh we just get too old to get off the couch and do much then ponder on our latest behavior and think we have not sinned ....that's how we attain modern sinless perfection....mostly.

Some of us are still VERY active....I readily admit I screwup. Wife tells me how when she is there to observe.
 
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GWH said:
You cite a good question prompted by the KJV, but the correct harmonization is found in the NIV: Verse 15 should be translated as "mature" (relative perfection), because absolute perfection--perfect divine love--is not attained until heaven per verse 12, as you said.
The command of Jesus in Matt. 5:44 is a goal not reached until heaven.
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The Greek word 'telios' can be translated as perfect, complete and maturity. The translators of the more modern translations have an aversion to the words 'perfect', 'perfection'. This in part is because of their Calvinist leanings. They have teethed of on Westminster Confession which teaches that 'we all sin daily in word, thought and deed.'. So they use the words, 'mature/maturity.
You may doubt that this could happen with translators. But we see this happen in the KJB where in Paul's pastoral epistles they translated the term Elder/Overseer as "Bishop' because they favored an Episcopal form of church government.
The idea of 'perfection' in scripture is completeness rather than 'maturity'.
Many years ago, I used to do all the mechanical repairs on my car. I regularly tuned the engine. After fiddling about with the timing,
I would get it running right. I would think, 'it is running 'perfect'. That is, it is running as it should.
That idea of 'running as it should', is what the idea of 'perfection' is, in the Bible. Not being faultless but being complete.
This is what Jesus meant when He commanded us 'to be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect'. Not some goal to aim for but a spiritual reality we can enter into by God's empowering grace.
 
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hornetguy said:
Yep. THAT is correct.... we sin less and less, as we become more like Jesus.

Do we ever attain sinlessness? Nope.
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It has to do with how you see things. If your mind is on Jesus, you will tend to sin less and less. You won't even think about being a sinner. I don't know anyone whose mind is on Jesus dwelling on being a sinner.

If you keep identifying yourself as a sinner, you're basically giving yourself and others the excuse to keep sinning.

Try to keep your mind focused on Jesus, and you really will sin less and less.


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2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
It has to do with how you see things. If your mind is on Jesus, you will tend to sin less and less. You won't even think about being a sinner. I don't know anyone whose mind is on Jesus dwelling on being a sinner.

If you keep identifying yourself as a sinner, you're basically giving yourself and others the excuse to keep sinning.

Try to keep your mind focused on Jesus, and you really will sin less and less.


🕊️
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I agree with that, other than your second statement.
I don't identify myself as "a sinner" .... I identify myself as a "saved sinner"....

One of the biggest complaints I hear about Christians is "you all think you are perfect"... my response is that nobody is perfect, except Jesus. The difference between believers and the worldly is that we have been saved and forgiven, and we strive daily to NOT sin, but when we do have a "slip" of some kind, we are still forgiven.
 
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hornetguy said:
I agree with that, other than your second statement.
I don't identify myself as "a sinner" .... I identify myself as a "saved sinner"....

One of the biggest complaints I hear about Christians is "you all think you are perfect"... my response is that nobody is perfect, except Jesus. The difference between believers and the worldly is that we have been saved and forgiven, and we strive daily to NOT sin, but when we do have a "slip" of some kind, we are still forgiven.
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I would further clarify my identity as "a saint saved from my sin."

There is no condemnation for those in Christ.

This truth includes nothing that says there is no sin but a caveat that declares, "If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us (1Jn 1:8).
 
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One of the images to describe sin that I love is that sin is like an iceberg. With an iceberg 6/7's of it is ways underwater, most of our sin we are unaware of. Our daily task is to deal with the sin that we are aware of and to stop committing it. When we accomplish this very difficult task, when we have dealt with and finally ceased committing all the sin we were aware of when we woke up this morning (good luck with that limited task), we will find a whole lot of new sin that we have become aware of while dealing with the sin we were previously aware of. My personal goal in life is to make it through 24 hours of being conscious without sinning even one time. I doubt I will accomplish it as I keep learning that some new action is sinful in God's eyes and I must stop doing it, but at least I have a target to shoot at.
 
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hornetguy said:
every time I go back and read this it makes me LOL... that's why our wives are called our "helpmeet".... they help us see our mistakes... truly...
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Don't get me wrong....my wife is always very kind to me. She really is not the dripping faucet nagging sort whatsoever.

But she is the type to take the shine off when I think I was perfect.
 
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