Catholicism vs Protestantism

[Dan_473]

We focus oN is pray to the death biblical.

Not whether Eat a rice biblical, or work night at gas station biblical. Work in the gas station is not in the bible, but people know It is not sin

right, I think the question is if something is
against the Bible.

**************
this isn't a big deal, but in case you're interested in learning more English,

I think
dead
is an adjective

death
is a noun

pray to the death
sounds like people who are pray until they are dead.
like gladiators who fight to the death.

death saint
sounds like maybe a horror movie with some kind of holy person that goes around killing people.

I think the phrases you are looking for are
pray to the dead
and
dead saint

 

[Jackson123]

is asking someone in heaven to pray with you against the Bible?[

is asking someone in heaven to pray with you against the Bible?

How do you know they able to hear you?

 

[Jackson123]

right, I think the question is if something is
against the Bible.

**************
this isn't a big deal, but in case you're interested in learning more English,

I think
dead
is an adjective

death
is a noun

pray to the death
sounds like people who are pray until they dead.
like gladiators who fight to the death.

death saint
sounds like maybe a horror movie with some kind of holy person that goes around killing people.

I think the phrases you are looking for are
pray to the dead
and
dead saint

Thank for correct my english

 

[Dan_473]

@Jackson123 wrote
"How do you know they able to hear you?"

I believe there are two equal questions here:
how do we know they are able to hear us?
how do we know they are not able to hear us?

myself, I can't see anything in the Bible that would directly answer either question.

Yoga , wear t shirt, pray to death saint are not in the bible.

It doesn't mean all are wrong.



Wear t shirt, drive a car, or drive airplane, Eat chiken naget are not in the bible but people know It is not against bible

right, it looks like you lay out a pattern here regarding things not directly talked about in the scriptures.

using that same approach, a reasonable conclusion about asking people in heaven to pray with you
is that it is not against the Bible.

 

[Jackson123]

@Jackson123 wrote
"How do you know they able to hear you?"

I believe there are two equal questions here:
how do we know they are able to hear us?
how do we know they are not able to hear us?

Ecclesiasticus 38:23

“When the dead is at rest, let his remembrance rest; and be comforted for him, when his Spirit is departed from him.”

 

[Magenta]

"How do you know they able to hear you?"

I believe there are two equal questions here:
how do we know they are able to hear us?
how do we know they are not able to hear us?

myself, I can't see anything in the Bible that would directly answer either question.

The dead know nothing. <- Scripture.

 

[Jackson123]

@Jackson123 wrote
"How do you know they able to hear you?"

I believe there are two equal questions here:
how do we know they are able to hear us?
how do we know they are not able to hear us?

myself, I can't see anything in the Bible that would directly answer either question.

right, it looks like you lay out a pattern here regarding things not directly talked about in the scriptures.

using that same approach, a reasonable conclusion about asking people in heaven to pray with you
is that it is not against the Bible.

Not all thing require regulation. For example I live about 1/3 mile from the church. I walk to church, not in the Bible. Some time I ride my bike, that is not in the Bible.

Those 2 example is not sin.

But pray to the dead, it is serious, that need bible guidance. not like what color of t shirt you chose to wear today.

 

[Jackson123]

If one believe the dead able to hear, ask apostle Paul to preach in my church.

 

[Dan_473]

Ecclesiasticus 38:23

“When the dead is at rest, let his remembrance rest; and be comforted for him, when his Spirit is departed from him.”

Interesting verse!

 

[Dan_473]

The dead know nothing. <- Scripture.

hi Magenta!

are you talking about this passage?

1. For all this I laid to my heart, even to explore all this: that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God; whether it is love or hatred, man doesn`t know it; all is before them.
2. All things come alike to all. There is one event to the righteous and to the wicked; to the good, to the clean, to the unclean, to him who sacrifices, and to him who doesn`t sacrifice. As is the good, so is the sinner; he who takes an oath, as he who fears an oath.
3. This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one event to all: yes also, the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4. For to him who is joined with all the living there is hope; for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5. For the living know that they will die, but the dead don`t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy has perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done
under the sun.
(Ecclesiastes, 9)

lots of great stuff in that passage!
it not only says that the dead don't know anything, it also says they don't have any more reward.

imo, the key to understanding Ecclesiastes is the recurring phrase
"under the sun".

under the sun (here on Earth), yes, "There is one event to the righteous and to the wicked."

and under the sun, the dead don't know anything, and they don't have any further reward.

that's how I read it.

 

[Dan_473]

Not all thing require regulation. For example I live about 1/3 mile from the church. I walk to church, not in the Bible. Some time I ride my bike, that is not in the Bible.

Those 2 example is not sin.

But pray to the dead, it is serious, that need bible guidance. not like what color of t shirt you chose to wear today.

yes, I understand that the subject has spiritual aspects, and that's why we look to the Bible for guidance.

that's why I brought up Christmas.
it too has spiritual aspects.
I've read that it's basically a Christian version of pagan winter solstice celebrations.

so to be fair, I think,
if a person is going to speak out against asking people in heaven to pray with them,
then they would also want to speak out against Christmas trees.

"European pagans were largely responsible for dressing their homes with the branches of evergreen fir trees in order to bring color and light into their dull winters. But pagans weren't the only people to do this. Romans also used the branches for decoration during the festival of Saturnalia, which took place from December 17 to December 23 in honor of the God Saturn."
https://www.newsweek.com/christmas-tree-origin-story-pagan-tradition-1254178

 

[Dan_473]

If one believe the dead able to hear, ask apostle Paul to preach in my church.

well, that would be
speaking
not
hearing,
wouldn't it?

someone from heaven did already come and speak
66. At this, many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, `You don`t also want to go away, do you?`
68. Simon Peter answered him, `Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life.
(John, 6)

25. But truly I tell you, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land.
26. Elijah was sent to none of them, except to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow.
27. There were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed, except Naaman, the Syrian.`
28. They were all filled with wrath in the synagogue, as they heard these things.
29. They rose up, threw him out of the city, and led him to the brow of the hill that their city was built on, that they might throw him off the cliff.
(Luke, 4)

we all like to think that if we have been alive when Jesus was on Earth we would have been one of his followers.
but, by the end of his ministry, he was left with just a handful.

I think another reason that Paul doesn't come speak here to churches today is that
now is the time that we live out the Christian Life while seeing through a glass darkly, with incomplete knowledge.
the things that Paul has heard in heaven and now understands are probably not things intended to be heard on Earth.
12. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.
(1 Corinthians, 13)
2. I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I don`t know, or whether out of the body, I don`t know; God knows), such a one caught up into the third heaven.
3. I know such a man (whether in the body, or outside of the body, I don`t know; God knows),
4. how he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
(2 Corinthians, 12)

finally, is the Revelation already given through Jesus not enough for us?
1. God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2. has at the end of these days spoken to us
by his Son,
whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.
3. His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
(Hebrews, 1)

 

[Wansvic]

yes, I understand that the subject has spiritual aspects, and that's why we look to the Bible for guidance.

that's why I brought up Christmas.
it too has spiritual aspects.
I've read that it's basically a Christian version of pagan winter solstice celebrations.

so to be fair, I think,
if a person is going to speak out against asking people in heaven to pray with them,
then they would also want to speak out against Christmas trees.

"European pagans were largely responsible for dressing their homes with the branches of evergreen fir trees in order to bring color and light into their dull winters. But pagans weren't the only people to do this. Romans also used the branches for decoration during the festival of Saturnalia, which took place from December 17 to December 23 in honor of the God Saturn."
https://www.newsweek.com/christmas-tree-origin-story-pagan-tradition-1254178

I see usurping Jesus' role as mediator in prayer as the big difference between the two.

 

[Jackson123]

yes, I understand that the subject has spiritual aspects, and that's why we look to the Bible for guidance.

that's why I brought up Christmas.
it too has spiritual aspects.
I've read that it's basically a Christian version of pagan winter solstice celebrations.

so to be fair, I think,
if a person is going to speak out against asking people in heaven to pray with them,
then they would also want to speak out against Christmas trees.

"European pagans were largely responsible for dressing their homes with the branches of evergreen fir trees in order to bring color and light into their dull winters. But pagans weren't the only people to do this. Romans also used the branches for decoration during the festival of Saturnalia, which took place from December 17 to December 23 in honor of the God Saturn."
https://www.newsweek.com/christmas-tree-origin-story-pagan-tradition-1254178

If one can prove celebrate chrismast is against the Bible, I will stop doing it

 

[Jackson123]

12. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.

This verse doesn't mean when we die, we able to hear and remember billion people pray to us.
This verse is talking about prophecy. The gift of prophecy not perfectly understood like we see something at mirror, dimly
for example, the book revelation. A lot of symbol, like we see a mirror, dimly.

 

[Wansvic]

you make some interesting points!

but again, before we talk about John chapter 3 (or baptism)

the Bible says to buy a sword.

have you followed that instruction?

Thank you for your persistence in asking that question. Even though Jesus was specifically speaking of a physical sword the concept has spiritual significance as well.

I do not have a physical sword because Jesus' instruction was not directed to everyone. It was directed to the disciples in His presence. In the conversation, Jesus pointed to the fact that while He was with them they didn't need a weapon. (He was their weapon) However, their existence was to change considering Jesus would soon be crucified. Since turbulent times were coming they would need a weapon to defend themselves from possible assault; many people were not going to like what they had to say.

The spiritual sword; the word of God is one that all have access to. (Eph 6:17) However, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit one is unable to wield it effectively. The ability to combat the enemy's lies requires a person to know God's truth and that understanding comes by the Holy Spirit. (John 16:13)

 

[Kemorean]

Definition of tradition

1a: an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (such as a religious practice or a social custom)
b: a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable … the bulk of traditions attributed to the Prophet …— J. L. Esposito
2: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3: cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4: characteristic manner, method, or style in the best liberal tradition

Tradition from Christian is ok, put pagan tradition into church is the problem

Not the traditions of men described above but APOSTOLIC Tradition in the Catholic Church, described by saint Paul, is the solution. - "Hold fast to the TRADITIONS that you have received from us either by letter (scripture) or by word (Tradition) of ours. (Apostles.)" See 2 Thess.2:15

 

[Dan_473]

I see usurping Jesus' role as mediator in prayer as the big difference between the two.

I can see that.

a lot of Christians like the idea of asking other Christians on Earth to pray with them.
going with the idea that Christians on Earth and Christians and heaven are all part of the same body, it doesn't seem like asking Christians in heaven to pray with you would be a big deal.

also, if Christians are the body of Christ, then asking other Christians to pray with you is still using Christ as the mediator, would be another way to look at it.

myself, a bigger issue is this
6. But you, when you pray, enter into your inner room, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
7. In praying, don`t use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking.
8. Therefore don`t be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him.
9. Pray like this: `Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy.
10. Let your Kingdom come. Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
11. Give us today our daily bread.
12. Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.
13. Bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.`
(Matthew, 6)

the idea of praying in a closet (and Jesus already laying out the pattern of prayer) with only the father seeing it would run afoul of asking other Christians to pray with you.

 

[Kemorean]

The will of the Father is found in ALL that Jesus and the apostles passed on - Scripture and Tradition (see post 2508)

Amen! Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say..'The scriptures alone.' But the Bible, given to the world by the Holy Spirit through the Church at the Catholic Council of Carthage in 397 A.D. DOES say.. "Hold fast to the TRADITIONS you have received from us.." (2 Thess.2:15) and the scriptures DO say that.."The CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of the truth." (1 Tim. 3:15)

 

[Dan_473]

If one can prove celebrate chrismast is against the Bible, I will stop doing it

sounds like a good approach!

and then, just to be fair,
I think
we would want asking Christians in heaven to pray with us
to be proven to be against the Bible
before we condemn it.