P
progressivenerdgirl
Guest
Bookreader, the 'Holy Land' may have symbolic relevance, but it's just a bunch of dirt. It no longer has any special religious status.
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I grew up catholic. Never paid attention to anything in that church, I usually slept or went to the kiddy bible school/daycare center they had in the basement. Then came first communion and confession - which I went along with not knowing the meaning of. Then it just sort of went downhill from there. My dad's still catholic and a few years ago I went with him to church, I still remember how dead it seemed. All the chanting, all the "hail marry's" all the procedures...Actually, a lot of churches these days kind of look like that. There's just something ominous about all of it
R
rauleetoe
Guest
Are you God?
Do you speak for God regarding what is in the heart of every person? Then how can you stand here making a sweeping generalizing statement as this?
Are all protestants found? *think long and hard before you answer this..
Btw, i am not a catholic, but i see the vitriol and biased allowed/permitted hatred/vitriol against catholics here..its one sided..but it needs to stop. If you disagree, dialogue about it..state your case, but I encourage you to forsake all the condemning blanket statements that generalize all in one group. It's wrong, its very erroneous,and most of all, it is very unchristian.
THAT IS THE POINT! What Anglicans consider the BASICS were not basic at all until Rome made the church decide one belief in the mid-third century. Even that didn't stick for decades. But by the 4th century the 'basics' that Catholic and Protestant churches still believe were established.
They are NOT BASIC. Many are the opinions and twists of people like Clement of Alexandria (a 'church father' who introduced in his writings and ideas the ideas of Plato and the Greek philosophers).
The Reformation did not go back to the Bible - it only removed the most obvious 'magic and hocus-pocus nonsense' that the Catholics had added after perhaps 500-700AD. It KEPT the nonsense added before that.
Wesley a hero of the faith?
Did he believe what Paul or Peter or John believed? I think not - in fact their writings state not.
Wesley was, like many thousands before him, taught by man rather than taught by God's Word and fellowshipped by others that did the same. Remember that concept (people learning FROM the Bible) was condemned in the fourth century and it was not one of the things cast aside by the Protestants - instead they taught their priests to tell people what to understand and cast out or killed those that didn't. Exactly as the Catholics did in fact... with bishops' hats laid with gold and starving peasants told to bow and scrape to keep the 'church' happy with it's land and riches.
Which of these guys most looks and acts, is as wealthy as, and dresses as Jesus did?
I'll state I think Jesus would assume neither were leaders of his church if this was 112AD. Does 1900 years really forgive this alteration? No - it doesn't need to! As soon as the church was no longer persecuted but was given power, the bishops lapped it up. Power and wealth - lapped it up.
God forgive them - they corrupted the church way back then
((I'm sorry I tried to find this or another pic from a different source but couldn't - there is a better one I've seen - I give credit to the blog it is from though I see it is actually a scan of Sky TV pictures - so it is to them I give credit))
THAT IS THE POINT! What Anglicans consider the BASICS were not basic at all until Rome made the church decide one belief in the mid-third century. Even that didn't stick for decades. But by the 4th century the 'basics' that Catholic and Protestant churches still believe were established.
They are NOT BASIC. Many are the opinions and twists of people like Clement of Alexandria (a 'church father' who introduced in his writings and ideas the ideas of Plato and the Greek philosophers).
The Reformation did not go back to the Bible - it only removed the most obvious 'magic and hocus-pocus nonsense' that the Catholics had added after perhaps 500-700AD. It KEPT the nonsense added before that.
Wesley a hero of the faith?
Did he believe what Paul or Peter or John believed? I think not - in fact their writings state not.
Wesley was, like many thousands before him, taught by man rather than taught by God's Word and fellowshipped by others that did the same. Remember that concept (people learning FROM the Bible) was condemned in the fourth century and it was not one of the things cast aside by the Protestants - instead they taught their priests to tell people what to understand and cast out or killed those that didn't. Exactly as the Catholics did in fact... with bishops' hats laid with gold and starving peasants told to bow and scrape to keep the 'church' happy with it's land and riches.
Which of these guys most looks and acts, is as wealthy as, and dresses as Jesus did?
I'll state I think Jesus would assume neither were leaders of his church if this was 112AD. Does 1900 years really forgive this alteration? No - it doesn't need to! As soon as the church was no longer persecuted but was given power, the bishops lapped it up. Power and wealth - lapped it up.
God forgive them - they corrupted the church way back then
((I'm sorry I tried to find this or another pic from a different source but couldn't - there is a better one I've seen - I give credit to the blog it is from though I see it is actually a scan of Sky TV pictures - so it is to them I give credit))
Do you have proof of this magic hocus-pocus stuff? Or are you giving False Witness?
Do you know what a catholic believes?
Just to refresh your memory this is what we Roman Catholics believe:
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Which nonsense, hocus-pocus magic they removed?
So you don't believe in Purgatory?
You don't believe praying for those dead can reduce their suffering after death?
You don't believe the bread and wine ACTUALLY BECOME the real flesh and blood of Christ when a man incants over them?
You don't believe splashing a child on the head at 6 months old counts as baptism?
You don't pray to people who some man decided was holy and 'a saint'?
You don't pray to God or a Saint or Mary while standing before a statue?
You don't call your priests Father?
You don't think your priest can absolve you of sin by you doing things (repeating words, or whatever)?
If I'd got all these things wrong I apologise.
btw I was christened as a Catholic (for reasons I don't understand though my life was in-the-balance at that time) so, according to those splashes, I'm Catholic? Or is it the 'confirmation' that chooses that? Surely if one undergoes "one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins" (as the Nicene Creed you believe states) then I'm sorted on the sin front. What is the point of 'confirmation' if I'm already saved from sin?
Of course, you might believe in the immortality of the soul.
As the first lie in the Bible states "Ye shall not surely die:" (Gen 3:4)
Only those that believe in the immortality of the soul believe no-one will die forever - we just go to a different state and live forever.
So you guys don't believe that right?
I may have got you guys all wrong - though I guess not.
And no I do not follow the Nicene Creed (made by men, many who followed Plato as much as Chrisy) - I believe the Apostles' Creed
You don't believe praying for those dead can reduce their suffering after death?
You don't believe the bread and wine ACTUALLY BECOME the real flesh and blood of Christ when a man incants over them?
You don't believe splashing a child on the head at 6 months old counts as baptism?
You don't pray to people who some man decided was holy and 'a saint'?
You don't pray to God or a Saint or Mary while standing before a statue?
You don't call your priests Father?
You don't think your priest can absolve you of sin by you doing things (repeating words, or whatever)?
If I'd got all these things wrong I apologise.
btw I was christened as a Catholic (for reasons I don't understand though my life was in-the-balance at that time) so, according to those splashes, I'm Catholic? Or is it the 'confirmation' that chooses that? Surely if one undergoes "one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins" (as the Nicene Creed you believe states) then I'm sorted on the sin front. What is the point of 'confirmation' if I'm already saved from sin?
Of course, you might believe in the immortality of the soul.
As the first lie in the Bible states "Ye shall not surely die:" (Gen 3:4)
Only those that believe in the immortality of the soul believe no-one will die forever - we just go to a different state and live forever.
So you guys don't believe that right?
I may have got you guys all wrong - though I guess not.
And no I do not follow the Nicene Creed (made by men, many who followed Plato as much as Chrisy) - I believe the Apostles' Creed
Interesting. I never said you needed to prove anything. You are an individual and only have God to answer to. Similarly I would never try to prove someone wrong. I might show they appear to be. But only God knows for sure.
You asked me which nonsense was removed during the Reformation. I could be wrong on those issues so I answered with a series of questions as you suggest I don't know what Catholics believe. I would be happy to receive instruction in any matter I have in error.
You are right. After re-reading your post, I can see you did not say that I need to prove you wrong. I do not know how I read that? Maybe I it was from another forum I read before. My sincere apologies. You have stated too many questions at one. All of which have answers. Many of this answers can have a connection to the other, for example all the prayer questions have connections and both the priest questions also have connections. If you fail to understand one you can not understand the other.
I may not be the most suited person to answer all you questions, I can try to answer a few. What I do recommend is that in your search for the truth, never search for why something is "false" first. That only blinds a person from the truth.
If we are to talk about prayers, we need to first understand what does the word prayer means. To pray is to ask, but the reason we say prayer instead of asking is because we are communicating with those in heaven. So simply stated we ask our christian brothers and sisters in heaven to pray for us and guide us. How is this possible? God is the God of the living not the dead. God does not exist in time, He is the beginning and the end, past and future. While we wait for this things to happened, to God this things already happened.
As a father I like it when my children hug me and tell me they love me. But it even makes me prouder when I see my children showing love for one another. When they ask for help, I love to help them, it becomes a beautiful experience. When I see them helping each other sometimes I feel like crying out of joy.
Do you believe God who is all love would find great insult when we His children ask each other for help?
In the Lords prayer [Our Father] we want God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. This means we ask our Lord's will to be the same on earth and heaven, His will. Thus earth is also heaven. We are stain with the filth of sin, and our prayers are heard. How much can the prayers of those in heaven who are not stained by sin no more can be heard?
I hope that you begin to understand the love you were taught in the catholic church but failed to see it.
G
GRA
Guest
Prayer is not "asking" by definition. A prayer of thanksgiving can be made, asking nothing.
First of all - what makes you so sure that they can even hear you? Can they hear your every spoken word from heaven? How about read your thoughts?
How do you know?
Do we even know for sure if the angels can read our thoughts? Or, is it something that only God can do?
Are you absolutely sure that you know the correct answer?
"pray for us" ???
What? Not enough Christian brothers and sisters on earth to pray for you?
"guide us" ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
What? Are the folks up in heaven doing the work of the Holy Spirit now?
(...instead of "resting from their labors"...?)
Do you pray to angels, too? Why or why not?
Do you pray only to Christian brothers and sisters that you know? Or, do you pray to others as well?
What if you pray to someone who you only - thought - was in heaven? (but, they are actually in hell)
?????
If you ask of the Father in the name of Jesus -- whose name do you invoke when you ask others...???
I think you should re-think this one a bit...
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Yes I do pray to the angels also. You may be familiar with the guardian angel prayer [at least heard of it] The concept of praying to God is never an issue because we love God above all. However He also told us to love one another, this is where we see difference. Most of you believe that to love another you take away from God, when in fact you add more glory to our Lord. If God is everything that is good, what is so bad in asking the blessed virgin Mary for prayers? Is She not in heaven? If she isn't then it is impossible to get to heaven.
Actually angels told the apostles that Jesus would return in Jerusalem.
I put that up there as a tad more important than Rome.
You pray to things that are not God in order to love God - just like the golden calf - it was not that they prayed to a different God - it was just that they made an image to pray to.rock022 said:
We pray to God - not angels or those we imagine are in heaven (the Bible says no-one goes to heaven - otherwise we can't be resurrected).
If you pray to those that are not God you're a pagan - your guardian angel prayer is NOT Biblical and it's just made up. The Bible says it pretty clearly. We may well have angels who watch us - but we pray to God. Angels (the greek word means messenger) are just God's representatives.
We pray to God in the name of Jesus.
Any other praying is pagan.
btw there is a different connection to this that you protestants should note.
We pray to God in the name of Jesus.
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Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.
Matthew 18:10 Take heed that you do not despise one of this little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. [we all have angels]
Matthew 17:3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him [the apostles saw them alive]
Hebrews 12:1 ...There for since we are surrounded by a great cloud of witness. [remember the cloud in Sinai was God, well here is plural]
James 5:16 ...The effective fervent prayer of the righteous man avails much...
Revelations 5:8 ...golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints... [plural]
Revelations 8:3 ...He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints...[plural]
Revelations 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God...[plural]
Here is the metaphor for the answers of God:
Revelations 8:5 Then the angel took the center, filled it with fire from the altar, and grew it to the earth. And there where noises thundering, lightning and earthquake. [remember how people saw and heard the cloud of God at Sinai?]
I say there is enough evidence for praying to saints
Matthew 18:10 Take heed that you do not despise one of this little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. [we all have angels]
Matthew 17:3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him [the apostles saw them alive]
Hebrews 12:1 ...There for since we are surrounded by a great cloud of witness. [remember the cloud in Sinai was God, well here is plural]
James 5:16 ...The effective fervent prayer of the righteous man avails much...
Revelations 5:8 ...golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints... [plural]
Revelations 8:3 ...He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints...[plural]
Revelations 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God...[plural]
Here is the metaphor for the answers of God:
Revelations 8:5 Then the angel took the center, filled it with fire from the altar, and grew it to the earth. And there where noises thundering, lightning and earthquake. [remember how people saw and heard the cloud of God at Sinai?]
I say there is enough evidence for praying to saints
General observation regarding this thread: Sadly, seems that it never goes out of style to bash Catholics. We live in a lost and dying world and yet some "Christians" have to zero in on the "error" of the easy target. How about keeping all eyes on Jesus and following Him? Never mind finding fault with others - misbehavior that is a sure turn-off to nonbelievers. Follow Jesus by example and others will take notice and do the same. Find fault and condemn other Christians and you are sure to have nonbelievers stay that way due to the terrible witness.
J
jimmydiggs
Guest
S
Sonofjesuschrist
Guest
I am a proud Roman Catholic apostolic christian, to be catholic is to be in the fullness of truth. Praise our king and queen.
NO it is not all true! The catholic church is so much christian!!!!!
I am a member and i am proud to be. The catholic church has such a rich spirituality that I alway find out more. I discover every year more and more the beauty!
I have non catholic friends and we can pray together but I am still so happy that I am catholic in many different ways and points. In many denominations I would miss soo many things... Saint Francis or Mother Teresa what catholics!!! Or the pope John paul II Watch the film karol a man became pope it shows an incradible person.
He even went to dictators like in Cuba or the Philippines and told them the truth! Many times they searched him when he was in Vatican or on a trip and found him in deep prayer sometimes hidden in in the back of a chapel on the floor. What a pope! You cannot say he was not christian and the church goes back to Jesus Christ! He himself gave us saint Peter as the first pope!
Thank you Jesus for all Christians in the world!!!
Give u sa great new pope!!!
I am a member and i am proud to be. The catholic church has such a rich spirituality that I alway find out more. I discover every year more and more the beauty!
I have non catholic friends and we can pray together but I am still so happy that I am catholic in many different ways and points. In many denominations I would miss soo many things... Saint Francis or Mother Teresa what catholics!!! Or the pope John paul II Watch the film karol a man became pope it shows an incradible person.
He even went to dictators like in Cuba or the Philippines and told them the truth! Many times they searched him when he was in Vatican or on a trip and found him in deep prayer sometimes hidden in in the back of a chapel on the floor. What a pope! You cannot say he was not christian and the church goes back to Jesus Christ! He himself gave us saint Peter as the first pope!
Thank you Jesus for all Christians in the world!!!
Give u sa great new pope!!!