Cessation of Gifts

[arpon]

Are the gifts and the power of the Holy Spirit prevalent today? Yeah...but I think they've waned significantly to where the power is only displayed through a relative few, and definitely not through the majority of believers. I don't think it's so much akin to "a switch flipped" (display vs. cessation) as it is akin to "fuel in the tank".

One element often used to represent Holy Spirit in scripture is oil.

In Zechariah 4, he's given a vision of two olive trees with branches connected by pipes feeding the oil to the lampstand in the middle, and we're told that "This [image] is the Word of Yah to Zerubbabel saying, 'not by strength nor by power but by my Spirit'" and then it talks about how The Almighty's temple will be built.

Next, when we read the beginning of Revelation we're given an image of the Messiah standing in the midst of 7 lampstands that we're told represent the seven churches. "Let your light shine before men..."

Heading back to the gospels, recall the parable of the wise and foolish virgins that were all waiting for the groom to arrive. Five were considered foolish because they didn't keep oil in their lamps...and when they tried to borrow some from the wise they were denied because then the wise wouldn't have enough to keep burning their lamps as they waited.

If we put all of this together, knowing what happened at Pentecost, I think we can conclude that when the "oil" was initially distributed to the body of believers the church's light burned brightly at the beginning (i.e. dynamic displays of the power of God through believers to the nations)...but as these past 2000 some odd years have gone by the "oil" has started running low as the church has become more and more worldly and less studied in the Word of Truth; its light dimming as a result (recall the prophesied "falling away" that must occur).

So fewer and fewer believers are actually able to display the power of the Holy Spirit through certain gifts (i.e. healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, speaking in other languages, etc.), while other corrupt shepherds deceive the rest through artificial displays and other nonsense.

What we need is another distribution of oil. The second tree is needed to complete Zechariah's prophetic vision for us today. We need a second outpouring of Holy Spirit.

Holy spirit still works and it not waning. The problem is we are waning. I have seen miracles especially on non believers but less in believers. Believers are saved already, But If they go and try to save the unsaved, pray- They can see miracles. Miracle mostly not for Christians but for non believers. Sometimes miracle works on believers too when it is really linked with the spread out of Gospel. I have met people(believer) who got out after clinically death for a long hour, Now their family becomes a very strong witness. I have seen Muslim woman healed(instantly), Hindu woman healed(after 2 prayer) and many more just within 3 years when I was really working on spreading Gods word. We are already saved, miracles happen with us or not it does not matter. But its matter if we go to unbeliever and than they will see. By going to them our Trust will grow in God, and it will become stronger. Other than that many of us will just argue with miracles.

 

[peachyking]

Please read the posts on this thread.

Your in attack mode and need to stay focused on the mission = Scripture.

Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

My words are good and true.

I believe this scripture is the truth.

Jesus said this:
Mark
Chapter 16
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe;
In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents;
and if they drink any deadly thing,
it shall not hurt them;
they shall lay hands on the sick,
and they shall recover.

Even if someone who calls themselves an Apostle says they are no longer true.
Even if someone who follows that person believes them over Jesus tells me that
it is no longer true.

 

[Yahshua]

Holy spirit still works and it not waning. The problem is we are waning. I have seen miracles especially on non believers but less in believers. Believers are saved already, But If they go and try to save the unsaved, pray- They can see miracles. Miracle mostly not for Christians but for non believers. Sometimes miracle works on believers too when it is really linked with the spread out of Gospel. I have met people(believer) who got out after clinically death for a long hour, Now their family becomes a very strong witness. I have seen Muslim woman healed(instantly), Hindu woman healed(after 2 prayer) and many more just within 3 years when I was really working on spreading Gods word. We are already saved, miracles happen with us or not it does not matter. But its matter if we go to unbeliever and than they will see. By going to them our Trust will grow in God, and it will become stronger. Other than that many of us will just argue with miracles.

I see what you're saying...

But I think there's a difference between "the guidance of the Holy Spirit" and receiving "power of the Holy Spirit from on high." Notice at the beginning of Acts that the Messiah said to wait for the "power".....but prior to this scene - during the gospels - they were already breathed on by the Messiah as He said, "receive ye the Holy Spirit" just before being sent out two by two. They came back rejoicing that they cast out demons.

So they were breathed on during the gospels and then later received the tongues of fire in Acts. So did they receive the Holy Spirit twice?? What happened to the initial disbursement? Why was a later disbursement during Acts needed?

The Holy Spirit is sent to believers to comfort and guide us in our walk, but the power of the Holy Spirit was given to proclaim the coming kingdom to the nations through signs and miracles. Recalled that believers didn't receive this power until hands were laid on them by Paul and others. It's the Holy Spirit's baptism of fire.

----

Again, I wasn't arguing that a switch was flipped between displaying this power versus cessation of the power, there definitely will be miracles still...instead, I was arguing that the power has waned (not the Holy Spirit's presence and guidance but the power). Some will display the power and some will not, fewer now than at the beginning...so a second outpouring is needed.

Since everything that happened to Israel is for our example to whom the ends of the ages have come, recall that at the beginning of Israel's wilderness journey they needed water, so Moses was commanded to strike the rock ("the rock who is Christ"). But then after their 40 years of wandering as they reached the end of their journey, they needed water a second time, so Moses was commanded to speak to the rock ("the rock who is Christ"). Unfortunately, Moses ruined the pattern and so forfeited his entry into the promised land, but we can still understand the intended pattern:

Rock struck for water | 40 years | Rock spoken to for water

Messiah crucified for "water" | 40 jubilees (2000 yrs) | Messiah spoken to for "water"

Olive tree | Lampstand | Olive tree​

 

[DavidTree]

Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

My words are good and true.

I believe this scripture is the truth.

Jesus said this:
Mark
Chapter 16
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe;
In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents;
and if they drink any deadly thing,
it shall not hurt them;
they shall lay hands on the sick,
and they shall recover.

Even if someone who calls themselves an Apostle says they are no longer true.
Even if someone who follows that person believes them over Jesus tells me that
it is no longer true.

Nobody is arguing Mark ch16 - check

Have you gone thru the posts on this thread as other members have provided Proof from Scripture.

 

[peachyking]

Nobody is arguing Mark ch16 - check

Have you gone thru the posts on this thread as other members have provided Proof from Scripture.

Anything that Jesus said over rides anything anyone else said.
End of story. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
No one else. I do not believe anything anyone else says that does not line up with His word.
HE IS THE WORD.

 

[arpon]

I see what you're saying...

But I think there's a difference between "the guidance of the Holy Spirit" and receiving "power of the Holy Spirit from on high." Notice at the beginning of Acts that the Messiah said to wait for the "power".....but prior to this scene - during the gospels - they were already breathed on by the Messiah as He said, "receive ye the Holy Spirit" just before being sent out two by two. They came back rejoicing that they cast out demons.

So they were breathed on during the gospels and then later received the tongues of fire in Acts. So did they receive the Holy Spirit twice?? What happened to the initial disbursement? Why was a later disbursement during Acts needed?

The Holy Spirit is sent to believers to comfort and guide us in our walk, but the power of the Holy Spirit was given to proclaim the coming kingdom to the nations through signs and miracles. Recalled that believers didn't receive this power until hands were laid on them by Paul and others. It's the Holy Spirit's baptism of fire.

----

Again, I wasn't arguing that a switch was flipped between displaying this power versus cessation of the power, there definitely will be miracles still...instead, I was arguing that the power has waned (not the Holy Spirit's presence and guidance but the power). Some will display the power and some will not, fewer now than at the beginning...so a second outpouring is needed.

Since everything that happened to Israel is for our example to whom the ends of the ages have come, recall that at the beginning of Israel's wilderness journey they needed water, so Moses was commanded to strike the rock ("the rock who is Christ"). But then after their 40 years of wandering as they reached the end of their journey, they needed water a second time, so Moses was commanded to speak to the rock ("the rock who is Christ"). Unfortunately, Moses ruined the pattern and so forfeited his entry into the promised land, but we can still understand the intended pattern:

Rock struck for water | 40 years | Rock spoken to for water

Messiah crucified for "water" | 40 jubilees (2000 yrs) | Messiah spoken to for "water"

Olive tree | Lampstand | Olive tree​

Its Just my thinking about Jesus and Holy spirit. When Jesus was with apostles than Holy spirits works with them through Jesus. While Jesus was with them than Why they need Holy spirit separately? He just allowed them to use his power. So they didn't got Holy spirit twice separately but only once and forever, Before that Holy spirit works with them directly through Jesus cause Jesus gave them the power. (I am not sure about that cause its not directly in the bible)
+ For guidance and miracles the common factor is Holy spirit. Sometimes He guides through scripture, in heart, through mind, vision. by other people or even by miracles(Gideon got guidance by miracle).

+ we know why miracles at prayer sometimes do not happen- such as- Isaiah 59:2- due to secret sin, Jacob 1:6-8- unbelieve, Jacob 4:3- wrong motive(such as for own reputation rather than Jesus), mark 11:24,25- unforgiveness etc.

Thank you by the way.

 

[SophieT]

One problem is that tongue speakers tend to push the idea that if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved or are less of a Christian.

Both of which are lies wrought by the enemy to muddy the waters.

baloney. that is a huge overgeneralization

and by the way, did you know that some who do not speak in tongues accuse those who do speak in tongues of having a demon?

what are they thinking

 

[SophieT]

Paul also said that even tho tongues is the only gift he wishes we all would do, he'd rather we NOT do it at all than do it wrong!

is that your interpretation?

that is not at all what he said

he actually said DO NOT FORBID SPEAKING IN TONGUES

see? you're doing it wrong

 

[CS1]

That is not exactly what Paul said. Paul did not want the Body to abuse the Gift and said, while in the Assembly, not to speak in tongues unless someone interprets.
The Apostle never said we should NOT use the Gift - He said, do NOT abuse the Gift and cause confusion since it is a prayer language that only God and the Angels understand.

he did not say: "while in the Assembly, not to speak in tongues unless someone interprets."


What is said inn1cor 14:27-32

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.


Paul is saying have self-control and be in order. He did not say not to speak he said if there is no interpretation " let him speak to himself and to God. " meaning he can speak in tongues but under his breath or not in a disruptible manner.

Then Paul says we are to judge what is said by the word of God and the outcome of the gift being used.

which is measurable.

After the Gift of the Holy Spirit was manifested what happen?

was there salvation, healing encouragement, correction, exhortation, building up, a confirmation?

Confirmation is the single most important thing next to the word of God.

Listen,

many people talk about what the gift is and not how to know if the gift is real in context to :

tongues and interpretation and prophecy which both are the same when they are done in the church setting.

1. God speaks to you first through the word of God and all prophecy is confirmation od what is already known, or has been said BY the Word of God.

Listen IF Gos want to tell you something HE will tell you it first believe That!. Then He will confirm it is HIM speaking to you through:

1. His word and Holy Spirit
2. Minsters of the word in the message will speak to you
3. and prophetically through the gifts of the Holy Spirit

Yet these are all things done after HE has spoken to you. Remember the foolishness we see is not a dismissal of the authentic nor does the abuses nullify them for today. Furthermore, one not seeing the gifts is in no way meaning or needing a person's validation they are for today. God said they are, as HE ensured that all 66 books WERE CANONIZED that have the gifts in them and nothing says they are not for today.

 

[DavidTree]

he did not say: "while in the Assembly, not to speak in tongues unless someone interprets."


What is said inn1cor 14:27-32

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.


Paul is saying have self-control and be in order. He did not say not to speak he said if there is no interpretation " let him speak to himself and to God. " meaning he can speak in tongues but under his breath or not in a disruptible manner.

Then Paul says we are to judge what is said by the word of God and the outcome of the gift being used.

which is measurable.

After the Gift of the Holy Spirit was manifested what happen?

was there salvation, healing encouragement, correction, exhortation, building up, a confirmation?

Confirmation is the single most important thing next to the word of God.

Listen,

many people talk about what the gift is and not how to know if the gift is real in context to :

tongues and interpretation and prophecy which both are the same when they are done in the church setting.

1. God speaks to you first through the word of God and all prophecy is confirmation od what is already known, or has been said BY the Word of God.

Listen IF Gos want to tell you something HE will tell you it first believe That!. Then He will confirm it is HIM speaking to you through:

1. His word and Holy Spirit
2. Minsters of the word in the message will speak to you
3. and prophetically through the gifts of the Holy Spirit

Yet these are all things done after HE has spoken to you. Remember the foolishness we see is not a dismissal of the authentic nor does the abuses nullify them for today. Furthermore, one not seeing the gifts is in no way meaning or needing a person's validation they are for today. God said they are, as HE ensured that all 66 books WERE CANONIZED that have the gifts in them and nothing says they are not for today.

Brother, we agree, for you posted the scripture: 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

Apostle Paul agrees with me for i said: Paul did not want the Body to abuse the Gift and said, while in the Assembly, not to speak in tongues unless someone interprets.

To himself and to God means = keep it to yourself (quiet please) and to God (He can hear you in quiet)

i have done this exact same thing in church, praying quietly in tongues to myself and to God

 

[CS1]

Brother, we agree, for you posted the scripture: 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

Apostle Paul agrees with me for i said: Paul did not want the Body to abuse the Gift and said, while in the Assembly, not to speak in tongues unless someone interprets.

To himself and to God means = keep it to yourself (quiet please) and to God (He can hear you in quiet)

i have done this exact same thing in church, praying quietly in tongues to myself and to God

I disagree Paul said he prays in the Spirit which happens when we pray as we are led by the Holy Spirit to do so. Paul said He prays with his understanding and without and sings with and without. There should be no interruptions when the word is being preached with out burst of speaking. Orderly and displined

 

[AandW]

The way Paul bragged about Praying in Tongues and wished for Others to do the same, simply means, it was part of the majority of his prayer life. Tongues is for Edifying and Spiritual Warfare. No wonder Paul knew so much about Speaking in Tongues, he faced more trials and obstacles than the majority of the Apostles all together!!

 

[AandW]

Something else, when we examine the Verse used by Most to claim Speaking in Tongues has Ceased, do [they] also forget that Knowledge is listed with it.
Has KNOWLEDGE CEASED?

In the case of John McArthur, KNOWLEDGE, has [indeed] Definitely CEASED!!

 

[DavidTree]

Something else, when we examine the Verse used by Most to claim Speaking in Tongues has Ceased, do [they] also forget that Knowledge is listed with it.
Has KNOWLEDGE CEASED?

In the case of John McArthur, KNOWLEDGE, has [indeed] Definitely CEASED!!

lol - Good one - like it

 

[DavidTree]

Something else, when we examine the Verse used by Most to claim Speaking in Tongues has Ceased, do [they] also forget that Knowledge is listed with it.
Has KNOWLEDGE CEASED?

In the case of John McArthur, KNOWLEDGE, has [indeed] Definitely CEASED!!

What would you surmise is the reason for Bible literate individuals to speak against the clear instructions in 1 Corinthians?

 

[mustaphadrink]

Just a thought. it is interesting that the church and or some believers get all het up about tongues. The fact is that some people will never be convinced about anything they don't want to be convinced about. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist or not Gods' plan. Sufficient to say I have read and heard of many stories of someone in a meeting that heard a message in tongues that were given perfectly in their language by someone who had never learned or spoke that language before.

What is sad is that so many believers are not bothered that the church today is nothing like the church in the New Testament and much of what is taught in the New Testament is ignored and is bypassed for a denominational doctrine that cannot be supported by scripture.

Jesus said He would build HIS church, not ours, and sad to say too many churches are not His, they are ours.

 

[Gideon300]

What would you surmise is the reason for Bible literate individuals to speak against the clear instructions in 1 Corinthians?

The argument seems to be that the "perfect" is the canon of scripture. How anyone can arrive at that conclusion is beyond me. Pentecostals have not helped either. When I was first born again, I was in the RAN (navy). I traveled a lot and met a lot of different Christians. Pentecostals looked down on others as inferior. Yet I found some Pentecostals, gifted as they may be, entirely lacking in fruit. Religious pride is the worst kind because there is zero excuse to boast. Because of my unhelpful experiences, it was 3 years before I sought to be baptised in Holy Spirit.

Some non-gifted people assume that gifts are the same as fruit. They are absolutely not. They see the lack of fruit and use that to invalidate the gift. I've had that conversation with sceptics. Christians need a baptism in love and humility before receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit!

 

[AandW]

What would you surmise is the reason for Bible literate individuals to speak against the clear instructions in 1 Corinthians?

To make such a Claim, where the Bible tells us when this Gift Ceases, so does this Gift and that Gift...reflects someone thinking they are Greater than God [knowing, that these Other Gifts Remain] and to still Proclaim one Specific Gift has Ceased, is a Modern Day Antichrist!!

The Reason: False Doctrine, Idealism, which is originated in Satanism!!

 

[DavidTree]

The argument seems to be that the "perfect" is the canon of scripture. How anyone can arrive at that conclusion is beyond me. Pentecostals have not helped either. When I was first born again, I was in the RAN (navy). I traveled a lot and met a lot of different Christians. Pentecostals looked down on others as inferior. Yet I found some Pentecostals, gifted as they may be, entirely lacking in fruit. Religious pride is the worst kind because there is zero excuse to boast. Because of my unhelpful experiences, it was 3 years before I sought to be baptised in Holy Spirit.

Some non-gifted people assume that gifts are the same as fruit. They are absolutely not. They see the lack of fruit and use that to invalidate the gift. I've had that conversation with sceptics. Christians need a baptism in love and humility before receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit!

Yes Brother, that is the claim (perfect/complete scripture) they make in an attempt to override Scripture.

Make no mistake, it is intentional and comes from the spirit of antichrist.

Religion and religious leaders always seek to 'sit' where only Christ is to be seated = in mens hearts.

 

[AandW]

Where most people go Wrong with Tongues and the Gifts Ceasing, is thinking of a Pre-Trib Rapture that the Holy Spirit and ALL Believers are Gone from Earth, leaving just Satan and humanity.

Why is that wrong?

The TWO WITNESSES will be able to have Power, to Unleash it, to show Great Signs and Miracles.
^
That only Happens when the Holy Spirit is PRESENT!

So, if the Holy Spirit is here during God's Wrath, so will God's Believers be, and so will the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, including Speaking in Tongues be present!!