Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

[presidente]

But before 1901, is not reportet from any Christians that they become the baptism with the Holy Spirit and as sign for this the gift of speaking tongues. This began in Topeka first.

But be that as it may, if some ideas about spiritual gifts are not accurate, that does not mean the gifts of those believe those ideas are not genuine.

I've read the idea from the early 1800s at least. There were also some churches where there was speaking in tongues in Maine. I've also read a quote from a New Light Baptist (the Baptists that emphasized being born again, out of which most Baptist denominations we are familiar with today sprang) around the early 1800's. I read a quote about speaking in tongues at a Methodist revival near the University of Georgia in 1801 also.

 

[luigi]

Do you guys and gals recognize how sparse speaking in tongues is; and that is even if it genuine?

 

[Aidan1]

The Corinthians had enough Gentiles for Paul to describe his readers as formerly worshipping idols in I Corinthians 12. In chapter 10, he refers to Old Testament accounts written for 'our learning.' In chapter 15, he summarizes the Gospel he preached, saying that Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was buried and rose again according to the scriptures. Galatians also teaches out of the Old Testament scriptures.

Gentile converts need to learn out of the Old Testament.

In concern of Jesus, of course

 

[Aidan1]

But be that as it may, if some ideas about spiritual gifts are not accurate, that does not mean the gifts of those believe those ideas are not genuine.

I've read the idea from the early 1800s at least. There were also some churches where there was speaking in tongues in Maine. I've also read a quote from a New Light Baptist (the Baptists that emphasized being born again, out of which most Baptist denominations we are familiar with today sprang) around the early 1800's. I read a quote about speaking in tongues at a Methodist revival near the University of Georgia in 1801 also.

Well, i am not talking about speaking in tongues.
I talk about the teaching about baptised with the Holy Spirit and as proof for that the gift of speaking in tongues.
This is the different to that what you mentioned.

 

[presidente]

In concern of Jesus, of course

I was in a Bible study with a Hebrew scholar friend of mine who showed how a passage in Ephesians tracked with the instructions of Leviticus. I Corinthians 10 shows us that there is moral instructions in the Old Testament other than specific predictions about Christ's death and resurrection.

 

[CS1]

You are right, all scriptures (66books) are from God. But if you believe all the scripture is for us Christians you are wrong. We can learn a lot from, thats also correct. But you cant take f.e. the OT law for the church.
I mean, today you find many selfmade theologie which uses the verses how it fits to their view.

what an arrogant comment.


2 Timothy
3:16

says :

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,".

The word ALL in Greek means ALL.

That is the issue with you and those like you, your pride forces you to say foolish things as such.

NOW You are the authenticator and the authority on what is for the Christian in context to the whole Bible>?

and the word is self-made Theology, not theologie.

Everything in the word of God is absolutely for the Christian. It may not apply to the Christian contextually but the application as to
what you should do or you should not do is greatly beneficial to all Believers.

And you know nothing of Pentecostal doctrine, are you? Have you attended any theological schooling that Pentecostals have?

Or are you basing what you think on the foolishness of those on TV and youtube which most Penacostel leaders have rebuked?

You are ignorant.

 

[CS1]

But before 1901, is not reportet from any Christians that they become the baptism with the Holy Spirit and as sign for this the gift of speaking tongues. This began in Topeka first.

Wrong !!!!!! You need to get off youtube and stop trying to talk about the history of Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Acts chapter two is where it started.

 

[Aidan1]

what an arrogant comment.


2 Timothy
3:16

says :

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,".

The word ALL in Greek means ALL.

That is the issue with you and those like you, your pride forces you to say foolish things as such.

NOW You are the authenticator and the authority on what is for the Christian in context to the whole Bible>?

and the word is self-made Theology, not theologie.

Everything in the word of God is absolutely for the Christian. It may not apply to the Christian contextually but the application as to
what you should do or you should not do is greatly beneficial to all Believers.

And you know nothing of Pentecostal doctrine, are you? Have you attended any theological schooling that Pentecostals have?

Or are you basing what you think on the foolishness of those on TV and youtube which most Penacostel leaders have rebuked?

You are ignorant.

No I am not ignorant. I believe 2. TIM 3,16!
BUT I also believe that it is not correct to create doctrines ore teachings simply in taken verses of the context and meaning.
A good example are the JW, which are taken their false doctrine out of the word of God.

 

[Lanolin]

regarding squabbling over gifts

It is up to the giver of the gift (i.e God) to give to whomever He pleases.

In my experience He gives the gifts to those who are humble enough to receive them. He doesnt give them to anyone whos proud.

Whatever gift is given, He expects that person to use it for His glory. Hes not gonna take it back even if that person fails to display any fruits. Because our God is a loving God.


Lets say God gives you the gift of healing and working miracles. Everyone you lay hands on gets healed.
would you not thank Him for this wonderful gift and go out and do the best you can with it? Or would you just throw it back to Him or start trying to claim its you thats doing it, that you earned it, and even charge people money for it.
The gift cannot be bought or sold.

If the gift was ever bought by the someone else it is not a gift at all.

 

[CS1]

No I am not ignorant. I believe 2. TIM 3,16!
BUT I also believe that it is not correct to create doctrines ore teachings simply in taken verses of the context and meaning.
A good example are the JW, which are taken their false doctrine out of the word of God.

then you take it to the JW's I am a Christian

 

[Aidan1]

then you take it to the JW's I am a Christian

It seems to me you dont understood what i am wrote in my post?

 

[Aidan1]

Wrong !!!!!! You need to get off youtube and stop trying to talk about the history of Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Acts chapter two is where it started.

What should I learn from Youtube? Was Youtube before 1900?
Yes, I know what was in Acts 2. But this teaching I still cant find in bible. Andbtill today nobody could Show me that this pentecostal doctrine was taught to the believers of the NT

 

[PaulChristensen]

The problem is not that cessationism deny
that God is working still with miracles and healings for his gloryfication.
The problem is that since Topeka and Azuza a New teaching arose among Christians which claims that the spiritual gifts (tongues, prophecie, healings) are today the same as in the time of the apostles.
New is, that speaking in tongues is the visible sign, that somebody is baptised with the Holy Spirit. This teaching was not in the churchhistory, nor in the NT taught. Out from Acts 2,8,10 and 19 which can seen as sign for the jews an doctrine was createt which never was taught to the Christians. No Single Letter to the churches mentioned this teaching.
And the fact, that today pentecostals and charismatics cant show that healings and prophecie are in the same quality like in the Apostles time reveals that there is something wrong.
Not only this, if someone has not the gift of speaking in tongues something must be wrong with him, because it is taught that this gift should be for every believer, who wants it.
And if someone is not be healed, then the reason is for shure his sin ore lack of faith,
this causes many suffering among belivers and brings them under pressure.
Because of this false teaching I am against it.
I am not against healing ore miracles ore prophecie as it was in the days of the apostle.

The problem is the elephant in the room that many professing Christians ignore.

The church in general is nothing like the 1st Century church. Paul told the Corinthians that he did not come with the enticing words of man's wisdom but with the demonstration of the Spirit and power. Today's churches are built on man's wisdom instead of the Apostles' doctrine. Therefore if the Apostles' doctrine isn't followed, then the church won't get the Apostles' gifts and power.

You can go into any church and what do you get? Ceremony and ritual in an archecturally designed 'temple'. You get programmed services that have been totally planned by man, leaving no room for the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Even in churches that claim to be Spirit-filled and led by the Spirit, you get people led by 'voices' and dreams instead of God's written Word. People use prayer as a type of sorcery to get what they want, and wonder why God doesn't answer them. Hindu mind control takes the place of faith in that people think if they believe hard enough or think positively enough, things will happen. Instead of the Spirit really moving through the gifts, there are occult manifestations with people jerking, shaking, going into trances, and falling over, without self control.

Therefore while the church is steeped in ceremony, ritual, liberalism, low standards of holiness, 'Sunday' Christianity, pagan and occult practices across all the denominations, not just Pentecostal and Charismatic, the church will continue being based on man's philosophy and wisdom and not in the power of God.

That's why we don't see the same power that the Apostles and the 1st Century Christians had. It is no point trying to get the mote out of the eyes of Pentecostals and Charismatics, when most, if not all the Evangelical churches have great logs in their own.

 

[JesusLives]

I am just trying to understand this question....

Is the continue part to continue in sin and the cease part stop sinning?

If the answer is yes to both parts then the Bible says REPENT which means trust in God to help you to stop sinning. Turn away from it and cease...

Never does the Bible say continue into your sinning....

 

[PaulChristensen]

Alright then, we can agree to disagree.

Actually, both of us gone thru all these points before here

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/why-have-the-sign-gifts-ended.196068/

The supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit ended when the church changed from basing their foundation on the Word of God and the leading of the Spirit to the foundation of man's wisdom, authority and programming. And while large sections of the Evangelical and Charismatic church remain that way, they won't see the gifts manifesting, because the Holy Spirit won't be fellowship with them to enable it.

Cessationism is based on man's wisdom, and not on God's Word. Those who put man's wisdom ahead of God's Word will never see the gifts manifesting in the midst.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Well, I do not mean only the teaching that someone is saved what for example the non trinitarian Oneness movement teaches.
I mean the teaching what is called the 2nd blessing ore the empowerment with the Holy Spirit, which is taught in various forms since Azusa.

As someone who was converted in a Pentecostal church in the late 1960s and has retained Pentecostal theology ever since, even though I left the movement in 1978, after close study of the New Testament, I have cone to the conclusion that when a person receives Christ as Saviour, baptism with the Spirit happens at the same time. They may not manifest any of the gifts, but they are filled with the Spirit nevertheless.

They don't manifest any of the gifts right away, because at conversion they don't believe they have the Holy Spirit and must receive Him as a 2nd blessing. I don't see that in the New Testament at all. In all the examples I see, everyone who heard the Gospel, believed it, turned to Christ, were baptised with the Spirit as evidence they were truly converted. Therefore the initial evidence of the baptism with the Spirit is a genuine transformation of heart and life and shows true conversion to Christ.

This is much more than a person saying a short prayer and then saying, "I am a Christian now", without any evidence of a transformation of heart and spirit. Going to church, talking the talk, and making a religious display on Sunday morning is not evidence of true conversion to Christ and the filling of the Holy Spirit.

Classical Pentecostalist teaching of the baptism with the Spirit being a 2nd blessing with tongues being the initial evidence, is man's wisdom and not what God's Word teaches.

 

[PaulChristensen]

But be that as it may, if some ideas about spiritual gifts are not accurate, that does not mean the gifts of those believe those ideas are not genuine.

I've read the idea from the early 1800s at least. There were also some churches where there was speaking in tongues in Maine. I've also read a quote from a New Light Baptist (the Baptists that emphasized being born again, out of which most Baptist denominations we are familiar with today sprang) around the early 1800's. I read a quote about speaking in tongues at a Methodist revival near the University of Georgia in 1801 also.

Before 1901, every genuine convert to Christ was baptised with the Spirit, but they didn't know that they could manifest the gifts until it started to happen at the turn of the 20th Century.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Do you guys and gals recognize how sparse speaking in tongues is; and that is even if it genuine?

Churches based on man's wisdom, which most are, will never see it manifested. True tongues is based in God's Word, not man's wisdom; and according to man's wisdom it is foolishness along with the rest of the Gospel of Christ.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Well, i am not talking about speaking in tongues.
I talk about the teaching about baptised with the Holy Spirit and as proof for that the gift of speaking in tongues.
This is the different to that what you mentioned.

The transformation of heart and life that comes through the baptism with the Spirit is proof of genuine conversion to Christ, before any gift, including tongues is manifested. If a person does not show through his life and conduct that he is filled with the Spirit, he cannot prove that he is genuinely converted to Christ, even though he may appear very religious on Sunday mornings at church.

 

[Aidan1]

The problem is the elephant in the room that many professing Christians ignore.

The church in general is nothing like the 1st Century church. Paul told the Corinthians that he did not come with the enticing words of man's wisdom but with the demonstration of the Spirit and power. Today's churches are built on man's wisdom instead of the Apostles' doctrine. Therefore if the Apostles' doctrine isn't followed, then the church won't get the Apostles' gifts and power.

You can go into any church and what do you get? Ceremony and ritual in an archecturally designed 'temple'. You get programmed services that have been totally planned by man, leaving no room for the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Even in churches that claim to be Spirit-filled and led by the Spirit, you get people led by 'voices' and dreams instead of God's written Word. People use prayer as a type of sorcery to get what they want, and wonder why God doesn't answer them. Hindu mind control takes the place of faith in that people think if they believe hard enough or think positively enough, things will happen. Instead of the Spirit really moving through the gifts, there are occult manifestations with people jerking, shaking, going into trances, and falling over, without self control.

Therefore while the church is steeped in ceremony, ritual, liberalism, low standards of holiness, 'Sunday' Christianity, pagan and occult practices across all the denominations, not just Pentecostal and Charismatic, the church will continue being based on man's philosophy and wisdom and not in the power of God.

That's why we don't see the same power that the Apostles and the 1st Century Christians had. It is no point trying to get the mote out of the eyes of Pentecostals and Charismatics, when most, if not all the Evangelical churches have great logs in their own.

Generell I agree with your post. The only what i see little different is that I believe that the sign gifts were given for a certain purpose in a certain time.