Children of the Promise
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Kayla I used to believe everything your showing me, then I put the commentaries down and started reading the bible fro myself. No one is teaching me that the fleshly Jews are not God's chosen people, it comes from the bible. Will you acknowledge that there are 2 Israels mentioned in the bible. You will never come to the truth until you realize this. I'm being sincere too and I care about you. I love the Jews, I could care less if they are God's chosen people or not... why would I care? Why would I have anything against them? I'm telling you that the bible plainly says that the children of the flesh are not the children of God... I'm not anti-semitic because I believe what the bible says.
K
I'm sorry,I just don't believe this way. I dont mean to say that you are anti-semitic,but I do believe that the theology is. One day one of us may change our mind.Until I do appreciate you patience,and your kindness in your posts. Again, I dont mean to call a person anti-semitic but I believe the theology is grounded in anti-semitism. I believe the call of God is irrevocable. But I do appreciate your responses in your posts.
Romans 9:1-6 KJV
[1] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God , and the promises;
The adoption pertained to the Israelites... what does that mean? Does that mean that all Israelites were adopted as sons of God? Were all counted as righteous, even those who did not believe God? Was Barrabas adopted as a son of God? Were the Pharisees adopted?
[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came , who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
[6] Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
No they weren't all adopted, because all are not Israel which are of Israel. The word of God had not taken affect in all of Israel. The only ones that were adopted as sons of God were the ones that the word of God had taken hold on... those are the sons, those are the ones who are heirs to the promises.
[1] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God , and the promises;
The adoption pertained to the Israelites... what does that mean? Does that mean that all Israelites were adopted as sons of God? Were all counted as righteous, even those who did not believe God? Was Barrabas adopted as a son of God? Were the Pharisees adopted?
[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came , who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
[6] Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
No they weren't all adopted, because all are not Israel which are of Israel. The word of God had not taken affect in all of Israel. The only ones that were adopted as sons of God were the ones that the word of God had taken hold on... those are the sons, those are the ones who are heirs to the promises.
Yeah, and that's about the Seed of the Woman we were first told about in Gen.3, i.e., Abraham's bloodline seed from the man Adam, for that's about a specific bloodline lineage that our Lord Jesus was born through, of the tribe of Judah. Why would you have such a problem with that? Are you an anti-Semite?
Even by that you are admitting to what I said. Not to seeds as many is simply referring to the different lineages back in the OT, because Abraham had children other than the lineage that our Lord Jesus would be born through.
Yes, and that law given through Moses was per the old covenant to the seed of Israel, and not to Gentiles. When in Galatians Paul is speaking of the Jerusalem above that is free vs. the bondage woman, he was speaking especially of the children of Israel to whom the Promise was first given through becoming in effect releasing them from the bondage of the law. Can't release Gentiles from the bondage of that law because the Gentiles were not under the law. So he was speaking especially of Israel, can't just throw them out of that. He also explained elsewhere the Promise being for us Gentiles also. So what's your problem?
And that's what I've been doing.
Why are you arguing? You've never read anywhere in my writings where I infer the Promise by Faith was not meant for us Gentiles too. The difference between you and I on this, is how you fail to recognize the bloodline seed that the Promise was first given through, i.e., Abraham, and how his literal flesh seed continued in the Promise, and still does today, for those of them that believe. And if you had understood about God's Birthright, which was included in that Promise by Faith to Abraham, and how it continued with the seed of Israel even today (just not in the holy land), then you'd especially understand what I'm saying. But you are hard of hearing because of your hatred against me.
[/QUOTE]
Even by that you are admitting to what I said. Not to seeds as many is simply referring to the different lineages back in the OT, because Abraham had children other than the lineage that our Lord Jesus would be born through.
Yes, and that law given through Moses was per the old covenant to the seed of Israel, and not to Gentiles. When in Galatians Paul is speaking of the Jerusalem above that is free vs. the bondage woman, he was speaking especially of the children of Israel to whom the Promise was first given through becoming in effect releasing them from the bondage of the law. Can't release Gentiles from the bondage of that law because the Gentiles were not under the law. So he was speaking especially of Israel, can't just throw them out of that. He also explained elsewhere the Promise being for us Gentiles also. So what's your problem?
And that's what I've been doing.
Why are you arguing? You've never read anywhere in my writings where I infer the Promise by Faith was not meant for us Gentiles too. The difference between you and I on this, is how you fail to recognize the bloodline seed that the Promise was first given through, i.e., Abraham, and how his literal flesh seed continued in the Promise, and still does today, for those of them that believe. And if you had understood about God's Birthright, which was included in that Promise by Faith to Abraham, and how it continued with the seed of Israel even today (just not in the holy land), then you'd especially understand what I'm saying. But you are hard of hearing because of your hatred against me.
[/QUOTE]
It's because Abraham had children other than Isaac. Don't you recall Ishmael, and the children Abraham also had with his latter wife Keturah, like Zimram, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah? They were NOT the seed in the Promise, Isaac was. Why don't you guys read your OT history so you'll know when the NT is referring to it?
The Promise by Faith God first gave to Abraham didn't go to Abraham's firstborn son Ishmael (Arab peoples). That because God had already promised Abraham and Sarah the seed of the Promise, which would be in Isaac. To this day the religious clerics of the seed of Ishmael are jealous over this, because they believe God's Birthright (included in the Promise) belongs to them, and not to the seed of Isaac, simply because Ishmael was actually Abraham's firstborn son, and the birthright is supposed to go to the firstborn per God's requirement per OT history.
The seed of Esau also are jealous over this, because Esau was the firstborn son of Isaac, but Esau sold God's Birthright to his younger brother Jacob whom the Promise would continue through. Reuben, the eldest son of Jacob was next in line, but he defiled his father's bed, so the Birthright went to Joseph and his seed (1 Chronicles 5). It would wind upon Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is today.
Per Gen.48, we are shown that the Birthright especially went to Ephraim, the younger son of Joseph, and that's still where it is today, as that Scripture said the seed of Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations".
So where are those "multitude of nations" in the Promise represented in the world? Not in the holy land, because Ephraim as head over the ten-tribed kingdom of Israel was removed and taken captive with the ten tribes never to return to the holy land still today. And certainly those "multitude of nations" are not manifested in the holy land per history, nor today. So where... did that get fulfilled?
In the Christian West after the Passion of Christ is where that manifested, for to Asia Minor and Europe is where The Gospel was sent after the leaders of the Jews rejected our Lord Jesus. Thus it's not by chance nor a coincidence that The Gospel next went to the western nations and those nations became Christian nations in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The lost sheep of the house of Israel (ten tribes along with believing Jews of the scattered house of Judah) had a hand in their establishing in Christ Jesus.
This is why per God's Word it is impossible to separate the 'seed' of Israel from that Promise by Faith which is about The Gospel.
The Promise by Faith God first gave to Abraham didn't go to Abraham's firstborn son Ishmael (Arab peoples). That because God had already promised Abraham and Sarah the seed of the Promise, which would be in Isaac. To this day the religious clerics of the seed of Ishmael are jealous over this, because they believe God's Birthright (included in the Promise) belongs to them, and not to the seed of Isaac, simply because Ishmael was actually Abraham's firstborn son, and the birthright is supposed to go to the firstborn per God's requirement per OT history.
The seed of Esau also are jealous over this, because Esau was the firstborn son of Isaac, but Esau sold God's Birthright to his younger brother Jacob whom the Promise would continue through. Reuben, the eldest son of Jacob was next in line, but he defiled his father's bed, so the Birthright went to Joseph and his seed (1 Chronicles 5). It would wind upon Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is today.
Per Gen.48, we are shown that the Birthright especially went to Ephraim, the younger son of Joseph, and that's still where it is today, as that Scripture said the seed of Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations".
So where are those "multitude of nations" in the Promise represented in the world? Not in the holy land, because Ephraim as head over the ten-tribed kingdom of Israel was removed and taken captive with the ten tribes never to return to the holy land still today. And certainly those "multitude of nations" are not manifested in the holy land per history, nor today. So where... did that get fulfilled?
In the Christian West after the Passion of Christ is where that manifested, for to Asia Minor and Europe is where The Gospel was sent after the leaders of the Jews rejected our Lord Jesus. Thus it's not by chance nor a coincidence that The Gospel next went to the western nations and those nations became Christian nations in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The lost sheep of the house of Israel (ten tribes along with believing Jews of the scattered house of Judah) had a hand in their establishing in Christ Jesus.
This is why per God's Word it is impossible to separate the 'seed' of Israel from that Promise by Faith which is about The Gospel.
Yes, there are two Israels today. But both... involve the literal 'seed' of Israel, as I partly revealed in my previous post. That's why it's important to understand your OT Bible history, and about God's promises and the prophecies involving them. When Apostle Paul proclaimed the believing Gentiles having become joined with the "commonwealth of Israel", he was proclaiming both the believing seed of Israel and believing Gentiles joined together as one body in Christ Jesus (Eph.2).
This is why Paul later revealed in Romans 11 about God having preserved a remnant of the seed of Israel according to His election of grace, meaning in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that's the branch of the seed of Israel that was involved in Christ's early Church, and still today, along with believing Gentiles.
The confusion many of you guys have comes from lack of OT Bible study, especially about the two separate 'houses' of Israel after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms starting at 1 Kings 11, and then their later scattering among the Gentiles. It also comes from lack of understanding about God's Birthright which involves the blessings first given to Abraham along with the Promise by Faith.
Just so you know, many of the Jews don't agree with me on some of these things, especially the orthodox Jews are against it. Christ's Church didn't replace Israel, God's Israel is... Christ's Church under the New Covenant. They don't like me saying that, because they think I'm trying to replace Israel with Christ's Church, when I instead am proclaiming God fulfilled His promise to the seed of Israel through Jesus Christ and that New Covenant. God's Israel which includes the promises He gave to the seed of Israel did not end either. This is where some of you guys are confused about the unbelieving Jews, not knowing your OT histories.
So who are the two Israels today?
One is the "commonwealth of Israel" idea from Apostle Paul, which Christ's Church does represent, while it definitely INCLUDES the literal promises God made to the seed of Israel, and believing Gentiles included with them. That's especially where God's Birthright blessings went to that wound upon the seed of Ephraim and the scattered ten tribes of the house of Israel. Believing Gentiles are included per God's Birthright promises within the Promise by Faith today. You can call that 'spiritual Israel' if you want, but it involves both literal seed of Israel along with believing Gentiles together as one body in Christ. It shows that God's promises to Abraham down through Israel still remained with the literal seed, and did not just end with the manifesting of the New Covenant under Christ Jesus.
The other Israel is the nation of Israel in the holy land, and the seed of Israel that still has yet to believe The Gospel. Can't throw them away because they also are still included in certain of God's promises to the seed. That's why Paul in Rom.11 revealed that even though those are enemies of The Gospel for our sake, so The Gospel would go to us Gentiles also, they still... are the elect of God, and He will not go back on His calling of their election. By that Paul revealed that God placed 'blindness' upon those until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And when that time comes, that blindness He put upon them will be removed, and then they will believe The Gospel as we have. So Paul was teaching us Gentiles to not get haughty and conceited with thinking God cast them away.
One of the promises God made to those, i.e, the Jews of the house of Judah (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi), was that in the latter days He would bring them back into the holy land and never remove them again (Jer.24). The event of Israel becoming a nation state again in 1948 shows that was fulfilled, unless God scatters them out of that land again, which I don't see ever happening again.
This is why Paul later revealed in Romans 11 about God having preserved a remnant of the seed of Israel according to His election of grace, meaning in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that's the branch of the seed of Israel that was involved in Christ's early Church, and still today, along with believing Gentiles.
The confusion many of you guys have comes from lack of OT Bible study, especially about the two separate 'houses' of Israel after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms starting at 1 Kings 11, and then their later scattering among the Gentiles. It also comes from lack of understanding about God's Birthright which involves the blessings first given to Abraham along with the Promise by Faith.
Just so you know, many of the Jews don't agree with me on some of these things, especially the orthodox Jews are against it. Christ's Church didn't replace Israel, God's Israel is... Christ's Church under the New Covenant. They don't like me saying that, because they think I'm trying to replace Israel with Christ's Church, when I instead am proclaiming God fulfilled His promise to the seed of Israel through Jesus Christ and that New Covenant. God's Israel which includes the promises He gave to the seed of Israel did not end either. This is where some of you guys are confused about the unbelieving Jews, not knowing your OT histories.
So who are the two Israels today?
One is the "commonwealth of Israel" idea from Apostle Paul, which Christ's Church does represent, while it definitely INCLUDES the literal promises God made to the seed of Israel, and believing Gentiles included with them. That's especially where God's Birthright blessings went to that wound upon the seed of Ephraim and the scattered ten tribes of the house of Israel. Believing Gentiles are included per God's Birthright promises within the Promise by Faith today. You can call that 'spiritual Israel' if you want, but it involves both literal seed of Israel along with believing Gentiles together as one body in Christ. It shows that God's promises to Abraham down through Israel still remained with the literal seed, and did not just end with the manifesting of the New Covenant under Christ Jesus.
The other Israel is the nation of Israel in the holy land, and the seed of Israel that still has yet to believe The Gospel. Can't throw them away because they also are still included in certain of God's promises to the seed. That's why Paul in Rom.11 revealed that even though those are enemies of The Gospel for our sake, so The Gospel would go to us Gentiles also, they still... are the elect of God, and He will not go back on His calling of their election. By that Paul revealed that God placed 'blindness' upon those until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And when that time comes, that blindness He put upon them will be removed, and then they will believe The Gospel as we have. So Paul was teaching us Gentiles to not get haughty and conceited with thinking God cast them away.
One of the promises God made to those, i.e, the Jews of the house of Judah (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi), was that in the latter days He would bring them back into the holy land and never remove them again (Jer.24). The event of Israel becoming a nation state again in 1948 shows that was fulfilled, unless God scatters them out of that land again, which I don't see ever happening again.
But it's pointing to BOTH, the believers of Israel through whom the Promise continued down to Christ. Just because some of Israel rejected our Lord Jesus doesn't mean they all did, or did you miss what Paul taught in Romans 11 that God has not cast away His chosen which He foreknew? If you study your OT history about Israel you might come to understand what I showed in my previous posts.
Heb 11:9
By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10
for he looked for the city which hath the foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11
By faith even Sarah herself received power to conceive seed when she was past age, since she counted him faithful who had promised:
Heb 11:12
wherefore also there sprang of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of heaven in multitude, and as the sand, which is by the sea shore, innumerable.
Heb 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14
For they that say such things make it manifest that they are seeking after a country of their own.
Heb 11:15
And if indeed they had been mindful of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16
But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10
for he looked for the city which hath the foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11
By faith even Sarah herself received power to conceive seed when she was past age, since she counted him faithful who had promised:
Heb 11:12
wherefore also there sprang of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of heaven in multitude, and as the sand, which is by the sea shore, innumerable.
Heb 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14
For they that say such things make it manifest that they are seeking after a country of their own.
Heb 11:15
And if indeed they had been mindful of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16
But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
I see where you're coming from now DP. You think that the children of God are the ones that come out of Isaacs loins because they are the children of promise per the promise in Romans 9:9. Am I assuming right?
Romans 9:9 KJV
For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Romans 9:9 KJV
For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.