You're saying God sanctioned murder. If you think God sanctioned murder then you are calling God a murderer.... no? We have people here saying God thinks it's a sin to use lethal force to protect the weak and innocent.... We have people saying that God does not think it's a sin when one follows the orders of men to go kill the innocent.... we have people saying that God sanctioned murder... that God is a murderer.... Am I the only one here that has anything nice to say about God and speaks out when He or His friends get slandered?
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E
So you are telling me that when the Israelities were commanded to kill entire people groups, that was nothing? Or are you playing some game of semantics? How are you just going to ignore everything I said except for that one statement? Would you prefer I said "kill"? Then insert kill. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
I think there is a large issue with picking and choosing certain statements people have said, and twisting them.
I am going to take the time to make a few things clear about me:
I do NOT like war. What Christian would? I do see times where war may be necessary, but I still do not "like" it.
Taking a life is not good. Whether it be murder or self defense. God takes life very seriously being as he is the giver of life, and anytime a life is lost(justified or not) sin is certainly involved in some way.
I will NEVER deliver people I love to slaughter. Especially if I have the means to stop the evil. I will fight. If I die in the fight then so be it. I would rather lose my life fighting to protect innocent people. I will do that because I love them.
Paul tells us to submit to governing authority, and we should. As long as it does not conflict with the laws of God. I believe it was Peter that said "we obey God over man." Yet this does not mean to are to rebel against the government on any given occasion. Rebelling against something God ordained is a sin. So one must choose wisely on how to handle situations and make sure they line up with what God tells us.
I know many veterans. I know many that have killed. I have seen what it has done to them. I see the saddness and bitterness in their eyes. They can't forgive themselves. I do my best to be compassionate to them. I even told one(who killed children in Vietnam) that God has forgiven him, but he needs to learn to forgive himself.
I am going to take the time to make a few things clear about me:
I do NOT like war. What Christian would? I do see times where war may be necessary, but I still do not "like" it.
Taking a life is not good. Whether it be murder or self defense. God takes life very seriously being as he is the giver of life, and anytime a life is lost(justified or not) sin is certainly involved in some way.
I will NEVER deliver people I love to slaughter. Especially if I have the means to stop the evil. I will fight. If I die in the fight then so be it. I would rather lose my life fighting to protect innocent people. I will do that because I love them.
Paul tells us to submit to governing authority, and we should. As long as it does not conflict with the laws of God. I believe it was Peter that said "we obey God over man." Yet this does not mean to are to rebel against the government on any given occasion. Rebelling against something God ordained is a sin. So one must choose wisely on how to handle situations and make sure they line up with what God tells us.
I know many veterans. I know many that have killed. I have seen what it has done to them. I see the saddness and bitterness in their eyes. They can't forgive themselves. I do my best to be compassionate to them. I even told one(who killed children in Vietnam) that God has forgiven him, but he needs to learn to forgive himself.
Why are you now using the word "kill" instead of murder? Are you playing word games and pretending to not know the difference? If you think God is a murderer then be brave and come out and say it instead of casually inferring to it as a passing comment. If you call my Father a murderer then yes I will ignore the rest of your statement and deal with the blatant insult at hand
That's because you ignorantly choose to believe government. And submitting to government authority does mean the killing of innocent people because that's what governments do best.... kill innocent people... Read your history books and learn. God will not consider those blamless who carelessly choose not to learn from the past and blindly follow government orders.
With all respect you don't seem to understand what I believe. You've misinterpreted a lot I've stated. I've never one justified the killing of innocent people yet you say I have.
You may not like what Paul said about submitting to authority but we are told to as long as it does not conflict with God.
I also feel we should have less government. I dont like communism. I don't like socialism. Giving governments total control makes you a slave to them. There's no freedom in that. There's no liberty. F a government is working to take away your personal freedoms then no I will not submit. Like I said earlier, we are to choose wisely on how to react to situations.
You may not like what Paul said about submitting to authority but we are told to as long as it does not conflict with God.
I also feel we should have less government. I dont like communism. I don't like socialism. Giving governments total control makes you a slave to them. There's no freedom in that. There's no liberty. F a government is working to take away your personal freedoms then no I will not submit. Like I said earlier, we are to choose wisely on how to react to situations.
All governments and their supporting clergy since the beginning use the apostle Paul’s letter. 94% of Germans were Christian and so was Hitler and you best believe they all used that same scripture that you just referred to and it resulted in the deaths of over 50 million people.
If you believe like millions do that you are not living under a dictatorship then there’s nothing I can say and no scriptures I can use to convince you otherwise. The reason why people believe this is because they have been placed under a spell… a state of hypnosis as a result of repetitive programming since they were born. Some by the grace of God break the spell but most will not.
The best slaves are the ones who believe they are free.
If you believe like millions do that you are not living under a dictatorship then there’s nothing I can say and no scriptures I can use to convince you otherwise. The reason why people believe this is because they have been placed under a spell… a state of hypnosis as a result of repetitive programming since they were born. Some by the grace of God break the spell but most will not.
The best slaves are the ones who believe they are free.
T
So it's cool to sin as long as a leader says it? Notice it says these leaders in this section are God's servants. Name one leader today who can be called God's servant. This section is talking about the law of the land. Basically the law "so not speed" is it a sin to speed, no, is it a sin to speed if a leader says not to, yes. This isn't granting us to go against the word of God if a leader says to.
E
God cannot be guilty of murder. That's like calling me a murderer for curling up a drawing I made into a ball and tossing it into the fire.
I used the two words freely and interchangably to show how close their meanings are. If you kill an entire people group, it is usually associated with the word "murder". In particular when that people group includes pregnant women and children. If this offends you, then get offended. I'm probably not going to lend any more time to this topic unless you wish to by pm or by starting another thread.
I used the two words freely and interchangably to show how close their meanings are. If you kill an entire people group, it is usually associated with the word "murder". In particular when that people group includes pregnant women and children. If this offends you, then get offended. I'm probably not going to lend any more time to this topic unless you wish to by pm or by starting another thread.
T
There's the key point! So the question now is killing against the word of God?
(I'm just gonna comment on everything you said on this one so I don't make a ton of posts lol)
The commandments are referenced to in the NT. Also I didn't say the law was void, rather the focus is now on the principle of the law. SO like the the law "do not eat swine" is void because the reason for it was that pigs were full of bacteria. Now we can properly clean them, so that law is gone. God states that it is not a sin to kill a thief. I would say the principle still stands there, so in that scenario it isn't wrong. When kings killed in the OT it was ONLY ok because God commanded it. If God didn't, then it wouldn't have been okay! To kill someone in war is a sin unless your side is commanded by God. No nation right now is commanded by God, so anyone who kills in war, anyone who fights in a war and attempts to kill, is sinning. Like you said we subject to authority unless is goes against the word of God. There is no verse that says it is okay to kill in war. There is no example of where it is okay to kill in war unless commanded by God. There are verses that say "thou shalt not kill". There are also verses that say "there is a time to kill" but you do not decide when that time is God does. If God says to kill xyz, then kill xyz, if he doesn't then it is a sin. We are to protect the week, but it doesn't say "protect them even if you have to go against the word of God". Focusing on military, it is a sin to kill, and the military kills. On the idea of self defense, it never says we can kill. It says protect and guard, but does a guard have to kill to keep safe? NO. Also like I said in that section read the context. It isn't a literal guarding rather a spiritual one. The time to kill is when God says to kill. THere isn't a verse that says lead your family to slaughter, but there are ones that say do not kill. Every death that was not punished was becasue God said for it to happen. Find me a section of self defense being condoned. If you can, I may change my view, but in my studies I have not found that to happen. I am not saying it was right that Christ died CUZ IT WAS MURDER, what I'm saying is it'd been wrong for the disiples to go and murder for him unless God had told them to. Think if they did, the sacrifice wouldn't have happened. Don't lead on your own understanding rather that of God's. In your understanding, self defense is okay, find me a verse where God says it is okay to kill someone. There is a difference betweeen protecting, and killing.
(I'm just gonna comment on everything you said on this one so I don't make a ton of posts lol)
The commandments are referenced to in the NT. Also I didn't say the law was void, rather the focus is now on the principle of the law. SO like the the law "do not eat swine" is void because the reason for it was that pigs were full of bacteria. Now we can properly clean them, so that law is gone. God states that it is not a sin to kill a thief. I would say the principle still stands there, so in that scenario it isn't wrong. When kings killed in the OT it was ONLY ok because God commanded it. If God didn't, then it wouldn't have been okay! To kill someone in war is a sin unless your side is commanded by God. No nation right now is commanded by God, so anyone who kills in war, anyone who fights in a war and attempts to kill, is sinning. Like you said we subject to authority unless is goes against the word of God. There is no verse that says it is okay to kill in war. There is no example of where it is okay to kill in war unless commanded by God. There are verses that say "thou shalt not kill". There are also verses that say "there is a time to kill" but you do not decide when that time is God does. If God says to kill xyz, then kill xyz, if he doesn't then it is a sin. We are to protect the week, but it doesn't say "protect them even if you have to go against the word of God". Focusing on military, it is a sin to kill, and the military kills. On the idea of self defense, it never says we can kill. It says protect and guard, but does a guard have to kill to keep safe? NO. Also like I said in that section read the context. It isn't a literal guarding rather a spiritual one. The time to kill is when God says to kill. THere isn't a verse that says lead your family to slaughter, but there are ones that say do not kill. Every death that was not punished was becasue God said for it to happen. Find me a section of self defense being condoned. If you can, I may change my view, but in my studies I have not found that to happen. I am not saying it was right that Christ died CUZ IT WAS MURDER, what I'm saying is it'd been wrong for the disiples to go and murder for him unless God had told them to. Think if they did, the sacrifice wouldn't have happened. Don't lead on your own understanding rather that of God's. In your understanding, self defense is okay, find me a verse where God says it is okay to kill someone. There is a difference betweeen protecting, and killing.
Yers before I knew God, now that I know Him and His will no military will EVER see me again. I just looked up what the original language says about kill.... It is to take a life, and so is murder.... There is NO taking a life permitted, NONE!
This is what I do not understand... Jesus says this... and LOOK WHO'S will it is to take a life.....If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Jesus says we should love our enimies not shoot them or war against them.... I say God has NEVER told any man to take the life of any other man.
Again I ask why would God TEMPT Abraham, and then God's Spirit inspires James to say GOD DOES NOT TEMPT ANY MAN...
Why did Abraham say he was tempted by God? God says HE DOES NOT TEMPT ANY MAN....
Here is the Scriptures...And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
And James... Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
So what part should I believe? I believe Jesus and Jesus also did not TEMPT or taken the life of ANY MAN! Jesus GIVES life He does not TAKE it... Some people are already dead ... IN THEIR SINS... not in God in SIN!!!!God does not have to take life, HE has PLENTY to give....
Who is the MURDERER from the BEGINNING? WHo committed the first murder and who did he listen too? God said to Cain...
Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
So did Cain listen to God and did ABEL defend himself? Who defended all the righteous prophets and Jesus... This death on earth is NOTHING and not even worthy of defence, not even by GOD! Not even God spare this life, it is the SECOND death you should be worried about.... Not this one....
I fear not this death, it is only another step to my HOME....
This is what I do not understand... Jesus says this... and LOOK WHO'S will it is to take a life.....If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Jesus says we should love our enimies not shoot them or war against them.... I say God has NEVER told any man to take the life of any other man.
Again I ask why would God TEMPT Abraham, and then God's Spirit inspires James to say GOD DOES NOT TEMPT ANY MAN...
Why did Abraham say he was tempted by God? God says HE DOES NOT TEMPT ANY MAN....
Here is the Scriptures...And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
And James... Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
So what part should I believe? I believe Jesus and Jesus also did not TEMPT or taken the life of ANY MAN! Jesus GIVES life He does not TAKE it... Some people are already dead ... IN THEIR SINS... not in God in SIN!!!!God does not have to take life, HE has PLENTY to give....
Who is the MURDERER from the BEGINNING? WHo committed the first murder and who did he listen too? God said to Cain...
Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
So did Cain listen to God and did ABEL defend himself? Who defended all the righteous prophets and Jesus... This death on earth is NOTHING and not even worthy of defence, not even by GOD! Not even God spare this life, it is the SECOND death you should be worried about.... Not this one....
I fear not this death, it is only another step to my HOME....