i can't comment on the Greek, but i know that some churches haven't accepted things that are perfectly justifiable (like dancing for example) even after 2,000 years!
Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?
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i can't comment on the Greek, but i know that some churches haven't accepted things that are perfectly justifiable (like dancing for example) even after 2,000 years!
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chubbena
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possibly just the Judaizing influence? we know from the epistles that Paul had to address that at least with regard to circumcision and food several times with gentile churches, and that such men followed after him wherever he started churches.
i don't see any argument about this topic being strong enough to condemn our fellow believers over it. playing a pipe organ or even a dubstep synthesizer with the intent to praise God doesn't seem to me to be on the same order as sacrificing animals or "making your children pass through the fire."
Well, lest think about this for a minute. If the whole body of the early Church received a command issued from someone they knew to be an apostle, do you think it would be a reasonable assume that every Church in every part of the world would collectively refuse that instruction as it was given? Can you think of any other instance where the entire body of the early Church rejected outright any apostolic command? We see examples where specific Churches had failed to follow certain instructions and were called into account by the apostle but, not every Church in every place on the same issue.
Why did it take the church some 1800 years to realize slavery was sinful? Trying to place God in a box of the Bible alone denies his ability to reveal truth beyond the written word which was gathered and preserved by humans, the bible didn't fall out of the sky from God. Every sect has its own interpretation of the bible and divine revelation. how any can find Christ in this mess of doctrine and traditions is truly proof in and of itself that God is real, because no rational person could accept Christ in light of all the cults and sects all proclaiming divine revelation above others.
What a mess.
Well, I am not really addressing the issue of right or wrong at this point. I am simply pointing out the fact that even early Church history did not accept the use of instruments. It would seem that the absence of this deserves an answer.
Now....Let me ask you are you Gentile or Jew?
If you are gentile then you were not even under the Law for a start...so the Law is not even in question
IS there an "XY"?
They used their voices magnified by instruments in praising and singing..and God did not condemned their usage...Does NT condemned the Usage of Voice?
The same way applies to your usage of microphone..amplifier..speaker...God can hear even your voice is low...
If you watched the video...You will know that the 144000 are literal jews...
(I do not dismiss the reality that revelation contains both figurative and Literal)...
your argument are in different time period.
Again...the Basic are Bread and Wine...for the Lord Supper
If you still hungry afterward...You can eat peanut and drink orange.grape juice
The question of Availability:
If you do not have bread...or wine...will it prohibit you to remember the Lord and proclaim his coming.
I think your absurd questions deserve an answer.
So If what available to your church is peanut and orange juice...can you still remember the Lord...I believe you can and there is no sin.
This is the same as using Loaf bread and flavoured grape juice in your Lord Supper....(not really the bread and wine of the NT) but it suffice.
It is true that all historic churches claimed to be apostolic: that means that the Apostles define the EDUCATING or building up resource for A Church of Christ. Even when rich patrons added crude pipe organs into the great Cathedrals--located at crossroads for the Fair Towns-they never used it for congregational singing. Because the Precenter or Cantor chanted the Psalms the organ was never used in the "official mass." It was used for processionals, intermissions or recessionals. The Reformation introduced congregational singing and when they inherited the Cathedrals the people had used for civic concerts, Calvin permitted some Psalms to be REcomposed and set to a simple meter for unison singing only. The Organ was not used in the presence of the Pope and official Mass at the Sistine Chapel (cappella) and so the Pope imported a praise team from France to sing ORGANUM (a worship team) because they were superior to the always falsetto voices in religion..
As far as the Jews are concerned, the Levi tribe had been abandoned to "worship the starry host" which was Babylonian because they had been sentenced to Babylon because of Musical Idolatry on the REST day at Mount Sinai. The Qahal, synagogue, ekklesia or Church of Christ (the Rock) specificiall outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" when the elders of small groups assembled them to READ the word from Aaron.
A Church of Christ is built upon or educated by the Prophets (by the Spirit of Christ) and the Apostles to whom Jesus gave the prophecies made more certain and written for our MEMORY. Christ defined A REST type Church of Christ both inclusively and exclusively including baptism. Here is one of all or most of the prophets quoted by Jesus when He called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites:
Ezekiel 33:30 Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother, saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the LORD.
Ezekiel 33:31 And they
come unto thee AS the people cometh,
and they sit before thee AS my people,
and they hear thy words, but they will not do them:
for with their mouth they shew much love,
but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
Ezekiel 33:32 And, lo, thou art unto them
AS a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice,
and can play well on an instrument:
for they hear thy words, but they do them not.
Ezekiel 33:33 And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,)
then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.
So, vocal and instrumental rejoicing had been forbidden in the wilderness and Jesus affirmed it in may places including the concept that Judas His Familiar Friend would not TRIUMPH OVER HIM.
That's just to prove that Churches of Christ always fed large doese of Scripture (once) cannot be a Cult.
As far as the Jews are concerned, the Levi tribe had been abandoned to "worship the starry host" which was Babylonian because they had been sentenced to Babylon because of Musical Idolatry on the REST day at Mount Sinai. The Qahal, synagogue, ekklesia or Church of Christ (the Rock) specificiall outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" when the elders of small groups assembled them to READ the word from Aaron.
A Church of Christ is built upon or educated by the Prophets (by the Spirit of Christ) and the Apostles to whom Jesus gave the prophecies made more certain and written for our MEMORY. Christ defined A REST type Church of Christ both inclusively and exclusively including baptism. Here is one of all or most of the prophets quoted by Jesus when He called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites:
Ezekiel 33:30 Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother, saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the LORD.
Ezekiel 33:31 And they
come unto thee AS the people cometh,
and they sit before thee AS my people,
and they hear thy words, but they will not do them:
for with their mouth they shew much love,
but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
Ezekiel 33:32 And, lo, thou art unto them
AS a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice,
and can play well on an instrument:
for they hear thy words, but they do them not.
Ezekiel 33:33 And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,)
then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.
So, vocal and instrumental rejoicing had been forbidden in the wilderness and Jesus affirmed it in may places including the concept that Judas His Familiar Friend would not TRIUMPH OVER HIM.
That's just to prove that Churches of Christ always fed large doese of Scripture (once) cannot be a Cult.
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was there a command to reject? No...
THOSE WANT TO PROVE SOMETHING WANT TO SUPPORT/PROMOTE A DOCTRINE...
The early Church did not use microphone? Does this mean they rejected Microphone?
the early Church uses wine in Lord Supper...Did the Late Church rejected the early teaching because now we used grape flavoured juice?
There was no sin in singing to God..if you used your hand...a pair of wood...as an aid to generate sound.
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God did not condemn slavery in the Old or New Testament. He condemned the mistreatment of slaves when they were treated as inferior. The Exodus from Egypt is a perfect example of racial slavery in the bible which is obviously condemned by God because he did release plagues on Egypt.
MAn stealing and slave trading is also condemned(which is what happened with the black slaves), but slavery itself is not sinful. This may sound hard to believe being as the treatment of slaves in early American history which wasn't biblical, but in the NT slaves were referred to as bond servants, and they sold themselves into slavery. Many times this was to pay off a debt, and if you study the treatment of slaves in the NT it is clear God said they were to be treated with dignity and respect(Eph 6:5-9), and many were quite educated.
In other words a slave in the bible would likely be looked at as an regular employee today. You work FOR someone, but you are free to leave at your will. Your employer is to treat you with respect, and if you want to keep your job you should do the same to your boss.
Anyone who works for someone and is oppressed is obviously not supported in the bible.
Clapping is also not allowed due to the fact you're using your hands and making a sound no different than using a percussion instrument, so using wood to make a percussion sound is also not allowed. God wants sound from us in the form of singing only, how else can it be spiritual if it isn't your spirit making it. Instruments, your hands or two pieces of wood being smacked together doesn't do it for God, he wants your spirit doing the singing.
P.S. The older scholars did not use the LAW OF SILENCE: that was invented by those who wanted to impose instruments. "God hath not said thou shalt not impose musical instruments."
The Roots (and rooters) for 2,000 years understood that God is explicit in forbidding mechanical instruments: they are defined as machines for doing hard work, mostly in making war. Men like Jubal and the Babylonian counterparts are said to be the FATHER (genetic) of those who HANDLED all of the musical instruments. Handle means "without authority." The prophesiers grasped that the brass or wind instruments had a spooky effect on people (modern medicine affirms) and they could pretend to be rainmakers of lamb-getters by using the sounds to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" and collect money as pretenders.
ALL of the musical terms and names of instruments in include enchantment or sorcery: Miriam and the Levites were prophesiers or soothsayer-sorcerers. Witchery is not a magical ting but uses the natural Fight or Flight startle reflex to radically disable the Left (rational, spiritual) mind so that they can use induced emotion to pour in false teachers. People will deny that a preacher said something a half hour after he said it (been there, done that). The false teaching gets embeded into the brain and the rational brain will think that they thought up the false idea. That is wy the command is to first PREACH the Word (Logos) by READING the Word for comfort an doctrine. The preacher's task is to make certain that everyone understands "that which is written for out learning."
It is and will continue to be very hard to find a preacher who will speak the word as it has been taught.
2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap [heap up, accumulate] to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Epithu_m-ētēs , oi, ho, A. one who longs for or desires, neōterōn “ergōn” Hdt.7.6; [dogmatōn] And.4.6; “ergōn” Lys.12.90; timēs, sophias, Pl.R.475b, etc.; phusei polemou e. Arist.Pol.1253a6; “kakōn” 1 Ep.Cor.10.6; “allotriōn” 2. . abs., lover, follower, X.Mem.1.2.60. b. . one who lusts, LXX Nu.11.34. in divination, S.OT 502
A.cleverness or skill in handicraft and art, Hephaestus , in music and singing, in poetry also, cunning, shrewdness, craft, Hdt.1.68, in music and singing, tekhnē kai s. h.Merc.483, cf. 511; in poetry, Sol.13.52, Pi.O.1.117, Ar.Ra.882, X.An.1.2.8, Sophistês , ou, ho, master of one's craft, adept, expert, of diviners, Hdt.2.49; of poets, meletan sophistais prosbalon of musicians, sophistês. parapaiôn chelun sophistêi Thrêiki [impure religion]
2. sophist (in bad sense), quibbler, cheat, goeta one who howls out enchantments, a sorcerer, enchanter. Goes
Goês , êtos, ho, 2. juggler, cheat, deinos g. kai pharmakeus kai sophistês Pl.Smp.203d ; deinon kai g. kai sophistên . . onomazôn D.18.276 ; apistos g. ponêros Id.19.109 ; magos kai g. Aeschin.3.137
I have been informed that the Episcopal reads through the Bible each year. Don't know for sure.
The Roots (and rooters) for 2,000 years understood that God is explicit in forbidding mechanical instruments: they are defined as machines for doing hard work, mostly in making war. Men like Jubal and the Babylonian counterparts are said to be the FATHER (genetic) of those who HANDLED all of the musical instruments. Handle means "without authority." The prophesiers grasped that the brass or wind instruments had a spooky effect on people (modern medicine affirms) and they could pretend to be rainmakers of lamb-getters by using the sounds to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" and collect money as pretenders.
ALL of the musical terms and names of instruments in include enchantment or sorcery: Miriam and the Levites were prophesiers or soothsayer-sorcerers. Witchery is not a magical ting but uses the natural Fight or Flight startle reflex to radically disable the Left (rational, spiritual) mind so that they can use induced emotion to pour in false teachers. People will deny that a preacher said something a half hour after he said it (been there, done that). The false teaching gets embeded into the brain and the rational brain will think that they thought up the false idea. That is wy the command is to first PREACH the Word (Logos) by READING the Word for comfort an doctrine. The preacher's task is to make certain that everyone understands "that which is written for out learning."
It is and will continue to be very hard to find a preacher who will speak the word as it has been taught.
2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap [heap up, accumulate] to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Epithu_m-ētēs , oi, ho, A. one who longs for or desires, neōterōn “ergōn” Hdt.7.6; [dogmatōn] And.4.6; “ergōn” Lys.12.90; timēs, sophias, Pl.R.475b, etc.; phusei polemou e. Arist.Pol.1253a6; “kakōn” 1 Ep.Cor.10.6; “allotriōn” 2. . abs., lover, follower, X.Mem.1.2.60. b. . one who lusts, LXX Nu.11.34. in divination, S.OT 502
A.cleverness or skill in handicraft and art, Hephaestus , in music and singing, in poetry also, cunning, shrewdness, craft, Hdt.1.68, in music and singing, tekhnē kai s. h.Merc.483, cf. 511; in poetry, Sol.13.52, Pi.O.1.117, Ar.Ra.882, X.An.1.2.8, Sophistês , ou, ho, master of one's craft, adept, expert, of diviners, Hdt.2.49; of poets, meletan sophistais prosbalon of musicians, sophistês. parapaiôn chelun sophistêi Thrêiki [impure religion]
2. sophist (in bad sense), quibbler, cheat, goeta one who howls out enchantments, a sorcerer, enchanter. Goes
Goês , êtos, ho, 2. juggler, cheat, deinos g. kai pharmakeus kai sophistês Pl.Smp.203d ; deinon kai g. kai sophistên . . onomazôn D.18.276 ; apistos g. ponêros Id.19.109 ; magos kai g. Aeschin.3.137
I have been informed that the Episcopal reads through the Bible each year. Don't know for sure.
What does how the Jews were commanded to worship under the Law of Moses have to do with how we are commanded to worship in the Church. By the way, If you cannot respond in a more professional way than sarcasm then do not bother to respond.
from Wikipedia..enjoy
The voice consists of sound made by a human being using the vocal folds for talking, singing, laughing, crying, screaming, etc. The human voice is specifically that part of human sound production in which the vocal folds (vocal cords) are the primary sound source. Generally speaking, the mechanism for generating the human voice can be subdivided into three parts; the lungs, the vocal folds within the larynx, and the articulators. The lung (the pump) must produce adequate airflow and air pressure to vibrate vocal folds (this air pressure is the fuel of the voice). The vocal folds (vocal cords) are a vibrating valve that chops up the airflow from the lungs into audible pulses that form the laryngeal sound source. The muscles of the larynx adjust the length and tension of the vocal folds to ‘fine tune’ pitch and tone. The articulators (the parts of the vocal tract above the larynx consisting of tongue, palate, cheek, lips, etc.) articulate and filter the sound emanating from the larynx and to some degree can interact with the laryngeal airflow to strengthen it or weaken it as a sound source.
The vocal folds, in combination with the articulators, are capable of producing highly intricate arrays of sound.[1][2][3] The tone of voice may be modulated to suggest emotions such as anger, surprise, or happiness.[4][5] Singers use the human voice as an instrument for creating music.[6]
All of those dodges go away if you understand that beginning in the wilderness the Qahal, synagogue, ekklesia, Church of Christ (the Rock) excluded instrumental noise and rhetoric because the PURPOSE DRIVEN PURPOSE was as A School of the Word. Even the Lord's supper is to show forth or TEACH the death of Christ: that will automatically cause all men and women to be silent and sedentary so that the PURPOSE can be fulfilled "That ALL be saved (safe) and come to a knowledge of the TRUTH." The Word or Logos or Regulative Principle IS the Truth.
So, task one: define a Christian is a Disciple OF CHRIST. A Disciple is a STUDENT. The resource is what Jesus commanded to be taught. A believer is "washed with water" INTO the Word meaning INTO the School of Christ.
Giving heed to the WORD is the only "worship concept" for the godly people who attended synagogue or for Christians who attend A School of Christ. Good luck finding one. "Shall He find faith when He returns?" The answer is almost none. Jesus said the kingdom does not come with observation: that means RELIGIOUS OBSERVATIONS or performance religion.
Let me ask you in a professional way:
Are you against Instrument using in praising/singing?
Yes. I can find no authority to support it either in the NT, nor in early Church history. This does not suggest that I am condemning all who worship in such a fashion. That is not my place.
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