Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

[SarahM777]

If the man you are speaking of does not contaminate the whole Lutheran movement and prove it bad, what about your own approach to those who believe in spiritual gifts. You talked about a Pentecostal church that started praying to Michael. That's really weird and something Pentecostals would pretty much universally disagree with outside of that church. If it's not fair for someone's impression of Lutheranism to be formed by this fellow, why would it be fair to use the same approach to judge all believers or churches who believe in spiritual gifts?

No doubt the man was wrong and their are those in all churches but once again the issue is did the gifts cease and if not are what we are seeing is from God or is the source something else? And again we are told to test the spirits. How do you know these are God? How do you test them? Is it based on something subjective? Is it based on something objective? Is it because looks and sounds good? Is it because it feels good? Is it because it measured against the written word? There is a difference between judging an experience,a feeling,or something that we see and judging a person.

 

[presidente]

Are there people in church service that cannot speak the language that the preacher is speaking ? If not there is no need for tongues.

Read I Corinthians 12 through 14. Apparently the Holy Spirit disagrees or He wouldn't give out the gifts of tongues and interpretation.

 

[RickShafer]

You do understand the difference between a cult leader and a parishioner don't you?
- It is a marked difference psychologically.

 

[SarahM777]

You do understand the difference between a cult leader and a parishioner don't you?
- It is a marked difference psychologically.

Sorry it's just the wrong issue. Does it matter what denom they came out of if they were never born again? And what does this have to do with Zone's thread?

 

[RickShafer]

Sorry it's just the wrong issue. Does it matter what denom they came out of if they were never born again? And what does this have to do with Zone's thread?

It's not her thread, it's Presidente's.
She and you use examples to prove your points instead of scripture.

 

[presidente]

The topic of the thread is that churches that do not allow tongues and prophecy in meetings disobey scripture. It's very obviously clear from I Corinthians 14. The thread provides a lot of examples of excuses for disobeying scripture.

 

[presidente]

It's not her thread, it's Presidente's.
She and you use examples to prove your points instead of scripture.

That's very true. The cessationists are arguing from experience. I'm repeatedly pointing out what scripture says.

 

[SarahM777]

That's very true. The cessationists are arguing from experience. I'm repeatedly pointing out what scripture says.

Presidente,

I do apologize for saying this was Zone's thread.

 

[SarahM777]

The topic of the thread is that churches that do not allow tongues and prophecy in meetings disobey scripture. It's very obviously clear from I Corinthians 14. The thread provides a lot of examples of excuses for disobeying scripture.

And again it does go into the heart of the issue if tongues ceased then it's not a question of allowing them or not.

 

[notuptome]

That's very true. The cessationists are arguing from experience. I'm repeatedly pointing out what scripture says.

The church at Corinth was out of order and Paul was correcting them on the matter of the gifts. The modern church is out of order on the gifts and they will not heed correction. No amount of scripture will ever persuade a Pentacostal that they are in scriptural error.

The only gift that really matters is the gift of salvation. It is the one gift that all men must have with no exceptions. Churches that invest their efforts in producing any gifts other than the gift of salvation are disobedient and laboring in vain. The church and individual believers are to spread the gospel that sinners will be converted. We are witnesses of the saving power of God. Men must be saved or they will perish in eternal condemnation.

All this prophecy, healing and tongues is silliness and serves the devil because it distracts men from Christ and their need to be saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

Presidente,

I do apologize for saying this was Zone's thread.

No offense taken. There are a lot of threads on here and it's easy to get confused.

 

[presidente]

The church at Corinth was out of order and Paul was correcting them on the matter of the gifts. The modern church is out of order on the gifts and they will not heed correction. No amount of scripture will ever persuade a Pentacostal that they are in scriptural error.

I might say that about a cessationist, except it's not true. I've known of some cessationists to let go of their error.

The only gift that really matters is the gift of salvation. It is the one gift that all men must have with no exceptions. Churches that invest their efforts in producing any gifts other than the gift of salvation are disobedient and laboring in vain. The church and individual believers are to spread the gospel that sinners will be converted. We are witnesses of the saving power of God. Men must be saved or they will perish in eternal condemnation.

This is an unbiblical line of reasoning. The church does not just exist for evangelism. Evangelism is part of the means by which a bride is prepared for God's Son. God wants to see all men come to repentance. That is true. But Christ matters, too.

It is foolish to reject the tools that God has given for evangelism, and accuse the tools of being bad, and of distracting from evangelism.

Church gatherings are for the edification of the saints. Saints that are built up and edified in love are more likely to be better at evangelism. But the saint does not solely exist for the purpose of evangelism.

All this prophecy, healing and tongues is silliness and serves the devil because it distracts men from Christ and their need to be saved.

The Bible does not agree with you. Christ said that He would send prophets, and He did. He did not do so to detract from evangelism. Prophets prophesying in church should build up the church. The church meeting is not for the world. But if an unbeliever comes in and all prophesy, he is convinced of all and he is judged of all.

I told one of the posters about a man who got extremely detailed prophecies for people. There was a teenage girl there. Before he prophesied over her, he asked her permission and she said no. After seeing the other prophecies, she went up to him after the meeting was over and asked him to minister to her. He prayed for her and another young woman standing there. He said the other young woman had been praying for her. He prayed about all kinds of things, including a mutual friend of theirs named Toby, that he would drive safely. Since he did not know these girls or their friend. The young woman decided to put her faith in Christ that night. Prophecy can serve a similar function to signs and wonders in that regard. Some people respond to such things with hardness and unbelief. Others see and put their faith in Christ, if it is accompanied by the preaching of the word

 

[SarahM777]

It's not her thread, it's Presidente's.
She and you use examples to prove your points instead of scripture.

I have before but it has gotten ignored and again I can put 1 Corinthians within the context of Acts,because there some things in Acts and 1 Corinthians that go together. 1 Corinthians was written about 55 AD,Acts runs from 33 Ad to about 66 AD. Paul is arrested in about 57 AD.

Paul Writes 1 Corinthians in AD 55,in which Paul says tongues,etc will cease, in Acts 19 is the last time Luke records people speaking in tongues about AD 56,somewhere during this time James also writes that if one is sick to go before the elders of the church be anointed with oil.....,so for the next ten years Paul is still preaching,gets shipwrecked on Malta,people get saved but not one mention that they speak in tongues. Why does Acts appear to be in agreement with Paul in 1 Corinthians when he said tongues would cease? This is within the time frame of Acts,1 Corinthians and James and when they were written and what is recorded in Acts.

 

[RickShafer]

I might say that about a cessationist, except it's not true. I've known of some cessationists to let go of their error.



This is an unbiblical line of reasoning. The church does not just exist for evangelism. Evangelism is part of the means by which a bride is prepared for God's Son. God wants to see all men come to repentance. That is true. But Christ matters, too.

It is foolish to reject the tools that God has given for evangelism, and accuse the tools of being bad, and of distracting from evangelism.

Church gatherings are for the edification of the saints. Saints that are built up and edified in love are more likely to be better at evangelism. But the saint does not solely exist for the purpose of evangelism.



The Bible does not agree with you. Christ said that He would send prophets, and He did. He did not do so to detract from evangelism. Prophets prophesying in church should build up the church. The church meeting is not for the world. But if an unbeliever comes in and all prophesy, he is convinced of all and he is judged of all.

I told one of the posters about a man who got extremely detailed prophecies for people. There was a teenage girl there. Before he prophesied over her, he asked her permission and she said no. After seeing the other prophecies, she went up to him after the meeting was over and asked him to minister to her. He prayed for her and another young woman standing there. He said the other young woman had been praying for her. He prayed about all kinds of things, including a mutual friend of theirs named Toby, that he would drive safely. Since he did not know these girls or their friend. The young woman decided to put her faith in Christ that night. Prophecy can serve a similar function to signs and wonders in that regard. Some people respond to such things with hardness and unbelief. Others see and put their faith in Christ, if it is accompanied by the preaching of the word

Yes and Amen, the gifts for the church.
The body of Christ is the church, He clearly said He would give them a comforter(paracleate)

para- beside
cleate- cleave to

Regarding the Holy Spirit:
John 16:7-14;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me;

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[SUP]14[/SUP]He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


I do not see how a cogent soul can read the above and I Cor.12:4-11 and not see that the Holy Spirit is not only the Great Comforter, but also that gift which is given to the church for it's edification.

 

[notuptome]

This is an unbiblical line of reasoning. The church does not just exist for evangelism. Evangelism is part of the means by which a bride is prepared for God's Son. God wants to see all men come to repentance. That is true. But Christ matters, too.

The purpose for Christ coming to the earth was to seek and save that which was lost. This is what we are to testify to.

It is foolish to reject the tools that God has given for evangelism, and accuse the tools of being bad, and of distracting from evangelism.

God chose the foolishness of preaching. God did not choose the gifts for evangelism.

Church gatherings are for the edification of the saints. Saints that are built up and edified in love are more likely to be better at evangelism. But the saint does not solely exist for the purpose of evangelism.

I disagree. There is no greater need than for men to be saved.

The Bible does not agree with you. Christ said that He would send prophets, and He did. He did not do so to detract from evangelism. Prophets prophesying in church should build up the church. The church meeting is not for the world. But if an unbeliever comes in and all prophesy, he is convinced of all and he is judged of all.

More nonsense. All prophecy today is forth-telling what God has given in His word, the bible. It's is all about Christ and man's need to be saved from his sins.

I told one of the posters about a man who got extremely detailed prophecies for people. There was a teenage girl there. Before he prophesied over her, he asked her permission and she said no. After seeing the other prophecies, she went up to him after the meeting was over and asked him to minister to her. He prayed for her and another young woman standing there. He said the other young woman had been praying for her. He prayed about all kinds of things, including a mutual friend of theirs named Toby, that he would drive safely. Since he did not know these girls or their friend. The young woman decided to put her faith in Christ that night. Prophecy can serve a similar function to signs and wonders in that regard. Some people respond to such things with hardness and unbelief. Others see and put their faith in Christ, if it is accompanied by the preaching of the word

Lovely story but it has more interest to Hollywood than the eternal kingdom of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickShafer]

I have before but it has gotten ignored and again I can put 1 Corinthians within the context of Acts,because there some things in Acts and 1 Corinthians that go together. 1 Corinthians was written about 55 AD,Acts runs from 33 Ad to about 66 AD. Paul is arrested in about 57 AD.

Paul Writes 1 Corinthians in AD 55,in which Paul says tongues,etc will cease, in Acts 19 is the last time Luke records people speaking in tongues about AD 56,somewhere during this time James also writes that if one is sick to go before the elders of the church be anointed with oil.....,so for the next ten years Paul is still preaching,gets shipwrecked on Malta,people get saved but not one mention that they speak in tongues. Why does Acts appear to be in agreement with Paul in 1 Corinthians when he said tongues would cease? This is within the time frame of Acts,1 Corinthians and James and when they were written and what is recorded in Acts.

So let me paraphrase: 1/4 x 3/25 divided by .338 might = this (if the quotient is correct)
- Honestly Sarah, do you think God divides His Word out like that?
- - I'm sorry, I respect you and your argument but I just don't see it.

 

[presidente]

God chose the foolishness of preaching. God did not choose the gifts for evangelism.

The Bible tells us how the apostles went out and preached the word, with signs following. How did Jesus evangelize? Did He preach without doing signs, wonders, and healings? Or did He do all three? When He sent the Twelve out, did He command them not to heal the sick or raise the dead, or did He command them to do these things?

Paul wrote that from Jerusalem round about unto Illyricum, with signs and wonders, he had fully preached the Gospel of Christ.

Show me the book of the Bible that tells us how important it is to do evangelism without signs, wonders, and gifts of the Holy Spirit. I can't find that in my Bible.

I disagree. There is no greater need than for men to be saved.

Do you disagree with the idea that the saint has intrinsic value other than being used as a tool for evangelism?

God is patient, wanting all men to come to repentance. But eventually, the judgment will come. If evangelism is all that matters, why would God allow the judgment to come at all? Why not let people live until they repent, or give them eternal chances thereafter.

God is preparing a bride for His Son. He is also using the church to display His wisdom to principalities and powers. Evangelism is not the sole purpose of the existence of the universe. Evangelism is part of preparing the bride for His Son. We need to be Christ centered when we think about these things, not purely man-centered.

More nonsense. All prophecy today is forth-telling what God has given in His word, the bible. It's is all about Christ and man's need to be saved from his sins.

Here is a question for you. What do you do with what the Bible actually says about these things? You know, the parts that don't fit into your narrow view of things? Like the passage mentioned in the OP.

Lovely story but it has more interest to Hollywood than the eternal kingdom of God.

Let's just hope other people don't think so little of how you decided to believe the Gospel.

 

[SarahM777]

So let me paraphrase: 1/4 x 3/25 divided by .338 might = this (if the quotient is correct)
- Honestly Sarah, do you think God divides His Word out like that?
- - I'm sorry, I respect you and your argument but I just don't see it.

The thing is the Bible does have to be put within it's historical context also. Yes God does do things within His time frame not ours. I mean would it make as much sense if one read 2 Corinthians before 1 Corinthians? Don't the gospels themselves make more sense when they also are put within their historical context? The thing would be is that God's confirmation to us that when He told Paul they would end He was showing us they did? In other words He told us then He showed us.

 

[SarahM777]

So let me paraphrase: 1/4 x 3/25 divided by .338 might = this (if the quotient is correct)
- Honestly Sarah, do you think God divides His Word out like that?
- - I'm sorry, I respect you and your argument but I just don't see it.

Ohh and by the why Rick,I do know I think outside the box a lot so sometimes my train of thoughts don't always make sense to someone else. (Although it makes perfect sense to me) It makes for interesting discussions.

 

[nathan3]

I been away from this thread for a few days . What are you talking about here now ?