Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

[BradC]

re pretrib:



does the Holy Spirit leave with the church?

is this the church leaving (falling away) while "Israel" gets "chastened"?
is this the church?: (taken out of the way)?

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

"now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time." < oh. something withholdeth...restraining. hmmm. in paul's day.

let's please find one of the umpteen pretrib threads and we can go through this ridiculous doctrine again. i'll not post again on pretrib here.

h'obviously this one is :

Re: Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

Others have said quite enough that represent the truth on this using the written word and not some personal prophecy or tongue revelation that you could denounce.

 

[zone]

If the passage were about complete scripture coming-- which does not fit the context-- why would the type of prophesying the apostles did cease? If you had a puzzle that is 'in part' you don't make it complete by throwing the pieces you already have on the table away.

umm...you put the pieces of the puzzle you have on the table together, piece by piece....and what happens.

you have a complete picture.

do you look for more pieces to a finished puzzle
why would you when the puzzle is finished.

why would anyone throw away what they need to finish the puzzle? it's finished. no cessationist throws away what's written. that's loony.

"why would the type of prophesying the apostles did cease?" - it didn't. they wrote it down. it's as true today as it was then.

If scripture made up what was lacking with the gift of prophecy, why would the gift of prophecy need to cease when scripture came? That's another problem with the cessationist argument.

for the life of me i can't.....like.....huh?

the gift of prophecy ceased when scripture came BECAUSE scripture made up what was 'lacking' (incomplete) with the gift of prophecy.

is there anything a prophet today can or should be telling you that God has not already told you?

 

[directline2iam]

Then in Mark 4:11-12 Jesus makes a reference to Paul's definition of speaking in Tongues (from 1 Cor 14:2) when He speaks of "Mysteries" in Mark 4:11, pasted below./QUOTE brmicke

Hate to be the one to break it to ya, but Paul was called Saul when Jesus was around and Saul, wasn't exactly what you'e call a close friend of Jesus at the time. So there goes another part of your false teaching down the drain.

 

[presidente]

I think Third Wave was coined by Peter Wagoner, who is also a church growth professor who drew from missiological research before the spiritual warfare and NAR stuff. The Pentecostal Movement was the first wave, the Charismatic the second, and the Third Wave was 'empowered evangelicals' in denominations and movements not effected by the Charismatic movement. The Charismatic movement was in more 'mainline' denominations like Anglican, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and Methodist (which had become 'mainline' by that time one could argue.) Third Wave was some of the other evangelical groups. But then there were 'third wave' fellowships of churches and denominations like the Vineyard, too.

Third Wave people may or may not believe in the 'initial evidence' doctrine. But they believe in gifts of the Spirit.

I don't see how Khulman could be called third wave. That was back during the Charismatic movement.

 

[presidente]

umm...you put the pieces of the puzzle you have on the table together, piece by piece....and what happens.

you have a complete picture.

do you look for more pieces to a finished puzzle

But you cannot see the complete puzzle and neither do I. That's why we keep studying and learning. The passage is about knowledge, which Paul describes as his own knowledge, related to his own understanding as an individual. It isn't about having access to a written body of knowledge.

why would anyone throw away what they need to finish the puzzle? it's finished. no cessationist throws away what's written. that's loony.

You would throw away the gift of prophecy.

"why would the type of prophesying the apostles did cease?" - it didn't. they wrote it down. it's as true today as it was then.

I said prophesying, not prophecies already written down.

the gift of prophecy ceased when scripture came BECAUSE scripture made up what was 'lacking' (incomplete) with the gift of prophecy.

is there anything a prophet today can or should be telling you that God has not already told you?

Having the Bible does not fulfill all the functions of the gift of prophecy. Saul lost his donkeys and a prophet told him what had happened to them, before Saul could even ask, and told Saul of the role he wanted Saul to play. Can you read in the Bible and tell someone where their lost things are?

Can you show me in scripture everyone whom the Lord has called to missionary work? Timothy received a gift THROUGH PROPHECY with the laying on of hands of the elders. When prophets and teachers in Antioch were ministering to the Lord and fasting, THE SPIRIT SPOKE and said to separate Paul and Barnabas to the work to which he had called them. Paul with his companions, once, on a journey, were forbidden by the Spirit of Jesus from ministering in one province, and Paul received a vision calling him to another. The Spirit directed Philip to go closer to the Ethiopian eunuch's chariot. Paul told how the Spirit witnessed in every city what would await him in Jerusalem.

In the Bible, we see the Spirit giving individual direction to those doing the Lord's work.

If you can't open up the Bible and show all the types of things the Bible shows the Lord would show through the gift of prophecy, how can you argue that this is what the passage is talking about when it says 'that which is in part shall be done away'. That makes no sense. Again, it is Paul's understanding that will be made complete, not access to some complete collective body of knowledge that the individual may or may not know that the passage speaks about.

 

[limondi85]

Absolute Lies!!! This is dangerous!! Read original post..

I completely disagree with your interpretation and I do so with respect to the author. I'm am stating my opinion which I believe to be the true interpretation of the verses in question. In my opinion your version of the bible is false. Its dangerous for you to read its words.
Nowhere in my Christian bible does it tell me not to celebrate Christmas. Your interpretation of this scripture isn't right. You cannot take what you choose from the bible to suit the message you want to convey. Here is what I believe is the right.
(KJV)
1 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O Lord; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.
The lord says don't be like the heathen=, a pagan or someone who worships false idols. He tells you not to be afraid of the signs of heaven as the heathens are.
He says the customs of the people are in vain = empty foolish or useless. Notice he didn't say the customs if the hathen are in vain?
He says they are upright like a palm tree but they speak not. they stand up like a christians and try to speak to god. They are not heard because they need to accept Christ?
Nowhere does that say not to celebrate Christmas.
Now for your biggest LIE!!!... The name easter is a rooted in ancient polytheistic religion or paganism. It is never mentioned in any original scripture nor is it ever associated biblically with the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Estre, the Teutonic goddess of spring. The goddess traces back to the time of the tower of Babel.
Genesis 6-5 (KJV) "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
This is when god sent the flood man. Why? For believing in this paganism. What you say is nothing less than heresey. Not using the loosely like modern man would to describe another mans beliefs, but the biblical sense of the word. . Heresy, in law, is an offense against christianity, consisting in a denial of some of its essential doctrines, publicly avowed and obstinately maintain
For your own sake author you have to realize that you are being deceived. Turn to the real word of god before its too late for your soul.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Your bible is directly against scripture. For what purpose would one to change gods word other than to deceive. Your bible version decieves you. Evil Satan has inspired these corrupt versions of the bible.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; ***"whose end shall be according to their works."***
Your NKJV drops "thee, thou and ye" you mite argue that NKJV is adapted for modern language, thee thou and ye are not used today. Yes that's true but These words date back to the late 13th century. The 47 scholars who in the 17th century translated to the KJV obviously thought it was important enough to keep those words. Remember this is around 400 years later. These seemingly insignificant words carry vitall meaning. That users of this counterfeit bible are being mislead.

There is a lot of the churches do that are against the Scriptures:

Like celebrate Christmas

Yeremyah 10:1-6, "Hear the word which Yahweh speaks concerning you, O house of Israyl. This is what Yahweh says: aDo not learn the way of the heathen; Gentile nations; and do not be deceived by the signs of heaven; though the heathen are deceived by them. For the religious customs of the peoples are vain; worthless! For one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They decorate it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, so that it will not move; topple over. They are upright, like a palm tree, but they cannot speak; they must be carried, because they cannot go by themselves. Do not give them reverence! They cannot do evil, nor is it in them to do
righteousness! There is none like You, O Yahweh! You are great, and Your Name is mighty in power."

Celebrate Easter

Yeremyah 7:18, "How the children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, while the women knead dough to make cakes for the Queen of Heaven, and how they pour out drink offerings to the hinder gods so they may provoke Me to
anger?"

The queen of heaven is the goddes Astarte/Ishtar better know in the west as Easter

 

[zone]

But you cannot see the complete puzzle and neither do I.

its right there ^

anything not in there ^ must be tested.

against what do we test it, if it isn't something in there ^ ?

if someone is telling us something that we do not find in there ^, then we need new Bibles...right?
we need to add the new prophecies....ya?
or no.

if no, then why do we need them, since they're not authoritative?

you or i may not see the COMPLETE complete puzzle - because the Bible has more in it already than any one person can work through in a lifetime. if we're stretched to the max just trying to understand what's written already, by the FOUNDERS, why, O why do we need the distraction of all this other stuff?

just because we don't have a COMPLETE understanding of what's written doesn't mean GOD DIDN'T COMPLETELY reveal what He wanted to in it.

He completed it. the completely revealed stuff He wants us to know is in there ^

shouldn't we be busy with that?

That's why we keep studying and learning. The passage is about knowledge, which Paul describes as his own knowledge, related to his own understanding as an individual. It isn't about having access to a written body of knowledge.

uh....why study and learn from what's written if we have prophets?
can we just get them all together and they can tell us everything?

You would throw away the gift of prophecy.

no.....the gift of prophecy is still available to you - it's in there ^
apparently more than we can fathom already yet anyways.

I said prophesying, not prophecies already written down.

crank up the printing presses then.
we need more paper.

Having the Bible does not fulfill all the functions of the gift of prophecy. Saul lost his donkeys and a prophet told him what had happened to them, before Saul could even ask, and told Saul of the role he wanted Saul to play. Can you read in the Bible and tell someone where their lost things are?

can you tell someone where their lost things are?
like....the story of Saul is recorded FOR A REASON.
the bible is about JESUS and God's King and Savior.

since when is the gift of prophecy for.....wait....i lost my car keys - can you find a prophet to tell me where they are?

Can you show me in scripture everyone whom the Lord has called to missionary work? Timothy received a gift THROUGH PROPHECY with the laying on of hands of the elders. When prophets and teachers in Antioch were ministering to the Lord and fasting, THE SPIRIT SPOKE and said to separate Paul and Barnabas to the work to which he had called them. Paul with his companions, once, on a journey, were forbidden by the Spirit of Jesus from ministering in one province, and Paul received a vision calling him to another. The Spirit directed Philip to go closer to the Ethiopian eunuch's chariot. Paul told how the Spirit witnessed in every city what would await him in Jerusalem.

In the Bible, we see the Spirit giving individual direction to those doing the Lord's work.

right. at the foundation of the church.
Timothy's office was one of the gifts given: Pastor Teacher.
Paul told Timothy to study up....like?

the Apostles, who had authority because they were Christ's Witnesses founded, laid the foundation for the Church.

now that the supernatural gifts are gone, men fill Timothy's role by......studying the teleios word of God to show themselves approved. all the stuff a pastor has to be is recorded now.

If you can't open up the Bible and show all the types of things the Bible shows the Lord would show through the gift of prophecy, how can you argue that this is what the passage is talking about when it says 'that which is in part shall be done away'. That makes no sense.

all what types of things the Lord would reveal through prophecy?
where i left my car keys?

anything important is already written down.
if i lost my car keys and i need help finding them, I PRAY: Lord, please help me find my car keys. and He does.

i don't understand the problem.

 

[presidente]

against what do we test it, if it isn't something in there ^ ?

Tested? You reject prophecies categorically if they are not right out of scripture.

if someone is telling us something that we do not find in there ^, then we need new Bibles...right?
we need to add the new prophecies....ya?

Faulty reasoning.
Unbiblical reasoning.

Anything God reveals will be consistent with the truth He has revealed. But He did not have to list the name of every missionary that would go on the mission field in scripture, yet He can reveal this. If John Brown is going to die young for the faith, we can read about people dying for the faith in the Bible, but we don't know it will happen to John Brown from reading the Bible. But one could know it through the gift of prophecy. (Read about Peden; I think the man's name was John Brown.)

The idea that all prophecy must be included in scripture contradicts scripture. Jesophat got tired of hearing the yes-men prophets prophesying in the name of the LORD after Elijah got rid of the Baal prophets. He asked if there wasn't a prophet of the LORD there. Jehosophat said yes one, but he never says anything good about me. Micaiah had prophesied before, but we don't know what he said because it isn't written in the Bible. Neither is the book of Iddo the seer or the prophecies that the company of prophets said about Saul or the prophets of most of the sons of the prophets with Elijah or numerous other revelations the Bible refers to but does not tell us what they said.

John heard seven thunders say something, but was told to seal them up. He couldn't write them down. If you have perfect knowledge now, what did the seven thunders say? If you don't know, you don't have perfect knowledge.

if no, then why do we need them, since they're not authoritative?

Faulty reasoning again. Not all prophecies were to be included in scripture. That doesn't mean they aren't authoritative, or scripture not authoritative.

you or i may not see the COMPLETE complete puzzle - because the Bible has more in it already than any one person can work through in a lifetime. if we're stretched to the max just trying to understand what's written already.

Then your interpretation does not work with I Corinthians 13, which speaks about Paul's own knowledge as an individual before and after the coming of the perfect. "When I was a child, I spake as a child. I thought as a child. I understood as a child. But when I became a man, I put away childish things."

The passage talks about individual knowledge, not a collection of a body of knowledge. It is about knowing, not information we can access.

by, by the FOUNDERS, why, O why do we need the distraction of all this other stuff?

Because we actually want to do what the founders said, what they passed on to us, like 'covet to prophesy' and 'despise not prophesyings.'

Do you think the Bible is so good that we do not have to do what it says when it comes to spiritual gifts?

just because we don't have a COMPLETE understanding of what's written doesn't mean GOD DIDN'T COMPLETELY reveal what He wanted to in it.

But we are not talking about that idea. We are talking about I Corinthians 13.

He completed it. the completely revealed stuff He wants us to know is in there ^

shouldn't we be busy with that?

Sure. But shouldn't we be busy actually doing it, rather than busy not doing it?

uh....why study and learn from what's written if we have prophets?
can we just get them all together and they can tell us everything?

If the prophets studied, why shouldn't we? Daniel studied Jeremiah.


no.....the gift of prophecy is still available to you - it's in there ^
apparently more than we can fathom already yet anyways.




crank up the printing presses then.
we need more paper.



can you tell someone where their lost things are?
like....the story of Saul is recorded FOR A REASON.
the bible is about JESUS and God's King and Savior.

since when is the gift of prophecy for.....wait....i lost my car keys - can you find a prophet to tell me where they are?



right. at the foundation of the church.
Timothy's office was one of the gifts given: Pastor Teacher.
Paul told Timothy to study up....like?

the Apostles, who had authority because they were Christ's Witnesses founded, laid the foundation for the Church.

now that the supernatural gifts are gone, men fill Timothy's role by......studying the teleios word of God to show themselves approved. all the stuff a pastor has to be is recorded now.



all what types of things the Lord would reveal through prophecy?
where i left my car keys?

anything important is already written down.
if i lost my car keys and i need help finding them, I PRAY: Lord, please help me find my car keys. and He does.

i don't understand the problem.[/QUOTE]

 

[presidente]

right. at the foundation of the church.
Timothy's office was one of the gifts given: Pastor Teacher.
Paul told Timothy to study up....like?

I don't doubt that Timothy pastor. Other apostles like Paul and Peter did. Jesus told Peter to pastor his sheep. Paul asked who pastors a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock.

But there is no evidence from scripture that Timothy was a settle local church overseer. Timothy was an apostle (I Thessalonians 1:1, 2:6.) He received instructions about APPOINTING the local overseers who would pastor the local flock. He traveled from place to place. He was told to do the work of an evangelist.

If you think having prophets means you don't have to study, why did Timothy have to study? He lived in the first century when we both agree there were prophets.

now that the supernatural gifts are gone, men fill Timothy's role by......studying the teleios word of God to show themselves approved. all the stuff a pastor has to be is recorded now.

That's not really the topic. The Spirit spoke to let the church know that Paul and Barnabas had to go on a mission. Timothy did a lot of things, too. He was traveling around with Paul and Silas on their missionary journeys, not just staying at one church as a pastor for life.

all what types of things the Lord would reveal through prophecy?
where i left my car keys?

If He chose to. He let Saul know where his donkeys were. Most prophecies in scripture weren't about that. The Bible gives us an idea of the types of things God prophesied about. In the New Testament, the Spirit would at times give specific direction to those engaged in evangelistic activity, like Peter, Philip, and Paul. Agabus prophesied a drought which allowed the church to prepare for difficult times ahead.

anything important is already written down.
if i lost my car keys and i need help finding them, I PRAY: Lord, please help me find my car keys. and He does.

i don't understand the problem.

God works through answering prayer, too. But instead of picking and choosing parts of the New Testament that show how God works, let's look at the whole picture.

 

[SarahM777]

Sarah wrote,


Do you apply the same reasoning to other scripture. When you read 'Love thy neighbor' do you think-- oh that was written to the Israelites in Moses' time. That was was spoken to the rich young ruler. The epistles of John that said to love one another were written to certain audiences. Every letter, every book has some sort of immediate audience. We could argue that none of the New Testament applies to us, or else just pick the pieces we like arbitrarily.


As I pointed out in the OP, Paul says something that speaks to the universality of the commands in the passage. He asks if the word of God went out from Corinth or if it had only come to Corinth. Isaiah predicted that the law of the LORD would go forth from Zion, and it was to Jerusalem that Christ sent the apostles after the resurrection. The Jerusalem church had prophets who did things a certain way. One of them traveled with Paul doing apostolic ministry. There was a certain way of doing it, prophesying that is, a certain order to it. The Corinthians were not the only church to receive the word, and they weren't the only ones to whom it had come, and they did not have the right to re-write the commandments of the Lord for church meetings. So how could we have that right?

It is true that these commandments apply in churches where people have the gifts. Maybe the fault is on the prophet who is in a highly liturgical church who does not speak up when he has a message. It may be on the one who speaks in tongues if he meets with cessationists and does not speak in tongues and interprets. But if the congregation or the leadership forbid obeying the passage, they disobey the commandments in the passage.

If no one is gifted to speak in tongues or prophecy, the church should obey the instructions to allow the ones with a teaching to teach. So often churches disregard that because tradition says that one elder or pastor should give a long sermon, and some churches do not allow for the 'unordained' to obey the Biblical command to let those with a teaching to teach.

First Paul is telling THEM the gifts are going to cease. It is in their future it does NOT mean when Paul,Jesus John or whoever wrote about future events that it was ALWAYS meant for OUR future. IE when Jesus tells the disciples that the temple was going to be destroyed it was in the DISCIPLES future,we know from history that the temple was destroyed. IT IS NOW in the past and NOT in our future. When the Bible does speak of future events we can NOT always make it about US.

HHMMM I know my church has both sermons by the pastors and Bible studies by other members of the church who are not pastors so I have no idea which churches you are referring to.

 

[SarahM777]

I'm surprised you didn't post this also, because it was on the site too. Maybe you guys can learn a lesson from him.


Ps: I will add that there are still some well meaning and clear thinking Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians with whom I would not hesitate to have fellowship. As long as they realise that we have all been baptised into one body (Christ) by one Spirit (The Holy Spirit) and salvation is only by Repentance alone and Faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

Funny thing......... This was sandwiched right between the two videos.........

So what is the basis of fellowship to be on? Can you have fellowship with oneness Pentecostals? Can you have fellowship with Pentecostals who listen to and believe guys like Benny Hinn are men of God? Can I have fellowship with transgendered Christians who are still acting on it but know otherwise?

 

[BradC]

please post the people leaving their wheelchairs and walking and leaping.
or are you just posting ideas?

it's a waste of time without some point of reference.

GOD HEALS. we KNOW this....we pray - according to His will, and He heals - according to His will.
sometimes He doesn't - is ANYONE here about to blame Him, or others if He doesn't?

why can't we just let God be God and go on about having some FAITH regardless of what we see happening (or not happening as is more specifically the case with all these - I HEALED A HEADACHE miracles)

if there are people who are non-healer-healers the Lord works specifically through...as Still keeps asking.....

will.......they.....please: go to hospitals and get ON WITH IT.
until then, there's a whole lot of typing going on and NO PROOF

You are big on the scriptures to support what you believe. Show me and others in the scriptures where anyone, who came to Jesus Christ by faith to be healed of an affliction or illness or the casting out of an evil spirit for themselves or by proxy for others, that he ever turned down and did not give them their request? When he ascended to the Father did he take his healing with him and cease to make people whole according to their faith? Did he stop telling people through the written word, 'Be it unto you according to your faith'? Show me one person who came to him by faith that he refused? When you can't find a single person, then tell me with your faith that God is not in the business of healing those who come to him by faith believing that he can do it? Is the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ seated at the right hand of God a different Lord Jesus Christ that walked among men? If he is different then tell me how? Is his mercy and compassion on the multitudes different now then when he was here as the God man? Where is your proof?

 

[BradC]

For all of you that believe that the kingdom of God has come and is reigning on the earth. Explain this to all those people that you have lead to Christ with the gospel and explain to them why they should be preaching the gospel of the kingdom as their Lord and Savior did as recorded in scripture in Matthew 4:23-25.

23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

This same Jesus commissioned his disciples this in Matthew 10:5-8, and 70 others in Luke 10.

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

These were his disciples he commanded. Are we to believe that we are any less of a disciple then the 70 that were sent out? Is our faith in the living God who has the words of eternal life any different then the faith of the disciples? If the kingdom is hear as you say, should the kingdom also be demonstrated in the same power that we see recorded in the scriptures? Do we count our service of faith being servants to our master of a different manner of faith that was given to those servants God called as his disciples? If our living God is not the same in his compassion and healing of our diseases, then is he also not the same in forgiving our sins and cleansing our conscience? Do we believe in the same Jesus Christ who walked among men doing good and healing all manners of diseases and was crucified for our sins?

 

[Cee]

It's nice that you say that, but Paul said you need an interpreter to understand tongues. Everything else you added.

I'm sorry to say that what I see here is utter foolishness. Paul is using hyperbole when he speaks of angelic tongues. Angels never spoke to men in anything other than a human language. Only the arrogance of man would allow him to believe that he could talk with God in a language that God knows but he does not. Interpreters do not interpret unknowable languages. They invent fantastic tales to please their audience.
The church does not need interpreters but men of understanding to rightly divide the word of God and disciple believers into Gods truth. God gives such men as pastors to the churches that seek them and desire them from God. Many will not endure sound doctrine. Even Jesus had disciple turn back and follow Him no more when He taught doctrine they did not like. John 6:60 something.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Cee]

"These signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"

Jesus foretells new tongues.

"For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people ..."

God speaks to people with another tongue (not known ones).

"For he that speaks in an unknown tongue ... speaks unto God ... in the Spirit he speaks mysteries"

Unknown tongue is speaking mysteries in the Spirit.

"He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself"

Edifies himself? Does Scripture confirm this? Yes.

[SUP]20[/SUP] But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

Obviously its not hyperbole. It's clear that praying in the Spirit is building up most holy faith.

"To another many kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues"

Many kinds of tongues and interpretation of tongues. - 1 co 12 obviously this isn't hyperbole either. And we see once again interpretation is needed for tongues. Let's see what else we can find...

"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays"

Unknown to us, but not to God.

"What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also ..."

Paul is clearly not speaking hyperbole here. He is explaining the mechanics of tongues, you don't understand with your mind, so what do you do... you pray and sing with your mind as well. This isn't hyperbole.

"Else when you shall bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupies the room of the unlearned, say Amen at your giving of thanks, seeing he understands not what you are saying

Once again. No one can understand tongues, this is why prophesy is more important, I'll get to prophesy in another post. But the driving point is clear, no one understands tongues, but God, and it is spoken by the Spirit.

"I would that you all spake with tongues ... I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than you all ... Wherefore, brethren ... forbid not to speak with tongues"

And finally, we see here that Paul wishes all would speak in tongues. And Paul spoke in tongues more than all, but not tongues only, but even more prophesy! Because no one understands tongues. So, then do we forbid them? Paul says no.

Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. - 1 co 14

I pray for this continually.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. - Romans

The Spirit Himself prays for us.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Paul starts with Love never ends, tells us the greatest is love, this is the perfect he is addressing. We see this in his next sentence....

1 co 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

And how did he end in 1 co 12? 31:But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

Paul says MANY times, earnestly gifts, but pursue love. To think the perfect is anything, but love is preposterous to me.

C.

 

[SarahM777]

I'm surprised you didn't post this also, because it was on the site too. Maybe you guys can learn a lesson from him.

Stephen,

Perhaps you can answer a question that is puzzling me about this though,if the people who were at the start of the movement were spirit filled and being led by the Lord,and they having things being shown to them by the Lord,and they believed the gifts ceased and then were being restored,but yet now the teaching has changed to be more in line with the gifts NOT ceasing,did the people who founded the movement get it wrong or are the people who now say the gifts continued are wrong? How is that possible? Does that even make sense that out of the same thing you would have both restoration and continuation which seem to be opposed to each other YET BOTH say they are spirit filled? Remember the ones that founded the movement were saying the Lord showed them He was restoring the gifts.

 

[Abiding]

Then in Mark 4:11-12 Jesus makes a reference to Paul's definition of speaking in Tongues (from 1 Cor 14:2) when He speaks of "Mysteries" in Mark 4:11, pasted below./QUOTE brmicke

Hate to be the one to break it to ya, but Paul was called Saul when Jesus was around and Saul, wasn't exactly what you'e call a close friend of Jesus at the time. So there goes another part of your false teaching down the drain.

 

[GreenNnice]

You really look like you should eat more, squirrelabidihnghouse, I mean, look at those sticks ! What you eating all day, popcorn ? Air ?
You do have a rather big head proportionately to the skinny rest of your bod, thanks to all that hot air held in there , but, yeah, that's--OH, squirrel, you know, I'm just a-kidding ya, bro.

How are ya !

 

[Abiding]

Stephen,

Perhaps you can answer a question that is puzzling me about this though,if the people who were at the start of the movement were spirit filled and being led by the Lord,and they having things being shown to them by the Lord,and they believed the gifts ceased and then were being restored,but yet now the teaching has changed to be more in line with the gifts NOT ceasing,did the people who founded the movement get it wrong or are the people who now say the gifts continued are wrong? How is that possible? Does that even make sense that out of the same thing you would have both restoration and continuation which seem to be opposed to each other YET BOTH say they are spirit filled? Remember the ones that founded the movement were saying the Lord showed them He was restoring the gifts.

Hey..just saying hello Sarah...and boy are you a faithful and even tempered person...ok enuf of the smooth flatteries, sowy theres a person you talk to that not that long ago said the brownsville stuff was authentic...ive been around awhile too now dont get me wrong we all have prolly fallen into error...well i sure have...but the point here is this.....what the heck
is the difference between a charismatic/pente and the rest of the pack? whats so great about these gifts "if" they do us no good? give us no protection from the junk? are we to get a big fat spirit with the same big dumb brain? ok maybe thats just bunk on my part

 

[Abiding]

You really look like you should eat more, squirrelabidihnghouse, I mean, look at those sticks ! What you eating all day, popcorn ? Air ?
You do have a rather big head proportionately to the skinny rest of your bod, thanks to all that hot air held in there , but, yeah, that's--OH, squirrel, you know, I'm just a-kidding ya, bro.

How are ya !

your right green...i do need to eat more....but thatll prolly go to my head anyway