Clarification on the word possession in the New Testament

[Ariel82]

Angela, that's an awesome testimony...will have to see about getting the book...maybe used or from a library.

 

[Ariel82]

Some years ago I had a thought. The Lord gives us authority spirituality, like a weapon we
could us, but if we do not, we let the enemy take control and do things, because we have
the rights and the Lord calls us to exercise them.

It is like kids in playground. If we have no boundaries or restrictions, or prayer or limitations
on what the enemy can do, then he will do whatever comes to his mind.

So for me the focus we should have is how to exercise the authority in the spiritual realm.
I remember a pastor talking about a conviction to pray for people travelling on a train near
where he lived going off to commit suicide. After continual prayer things started to change.

As people of light we walk with a real heritage in this world. But often we do not encourage
one another to see the abject need and problems all around us. For instance depression among
young men is getting close to the main cause of death among them.

I am speaking partly to myself here, we need a clearer vision how to reach out and help bring
this light into people whose lives have become so dark and painful, they want to literally stop
living.

Excellent observation.

We as children of God definitely have authority through Christ in the Spirit realm and the power of prayer is very strong.

We all need to pray and ask God how we can be a light to those around us. Reach out to those in darkness and give them hope and love and the freeing truth found in the gospel.

 

[PeterJens]

Excellent observation.

We as children of God definitely have authority through Christ in the Spirit realm and the power of prayer is very strong.

We all need to pray and ask God how we can be a light to those around us. Reach out to those in darkness and give them hope and love and the freeing truth found in the gospel.

On that front, on this website there are some seriously hurt people who are coming
for help. The problem is often it is not just one issue but a whole ream of them
and the guidance they are looking for is hard to give.

Maybe we should have a prayer thread for praying through some of the situations.

 

[Ariel82]

On that front, on this website there are some seriously hurt people who are coming
for help. The problem is often it is not just one issue but a whole ream of them
and the guidance they are looking for is hard to give.

Maybe we should have a prayer thread for praying through some of the situations.

Sure, you can start one in the prayer forum.

I just pray over the whole site and skim forums. We all have a limited amount of time in the day, but we have some wonderful people on here that respond pretty quickly to calls for help.

For people who think about suicide that live in the USA I give them this information...

"No matter what problems you are dealing with, we want to help you find a reason to keep living. By calling 1-800-273-TALK (8255) you’ll be connected to a skilled, trained counselor at a crisis center in your area, anytime 24/7."

If God gives me time and moves my heart, I post a comment or prayer. However, I spend more time silently praying over the situation than actually posting. Most of the time God has already moved another member to speak and I just pray in agreement.

It's actually pretty awesome to see God answer prayers and change lives.

 

[Ariel82]

Okay I am going to lay out my belief based on my understanding of scriptures and what I have observed myself of the spiritual realm.

I believe God can speak to us in many ways.

1. He can speak to us through scriptures...making the words living and cutting through the lies the world has feed us. For example even sinners love those who love them, but God calls us to love our enemies, bless those who curse us, go the extra mile, turn the other cheek, forgive others even if they don't ask or deserve it because we don't deserve God's forgiveness of our sins, but by His grace and love we have it through the blood of Christ Jesus.

2. He can speak to us through other believers through encouraging words, compassionate gifts of food, clothes, shelter, time or just being there to listen and pray as a friend.

3. Our life circumstances...complicated but can expand later if needed.

4. By answering our prayers, even if the answer is no or wait a while

5. At night in our dreams while we sleep. This one is more tricky because deceiving spirits can enter our dreams as well. Most people don't remember their dreams, but I believe God teaches us and allows us to be tested in our dreams. I often fail because I don't remember to trust God and pray when the monsters chase me.

Sometimes I will dream of a situation through someone else's eyes and hear the lies demons speak to them. I know it has to be a God thing, because I will spend time in prayer and Bible study searching for Biblical answers to refute the lies. Then sometime that day or week, I will meet someone who tells me their story and who is going through that situation. It gives me a chance to pray with them and give them the word of knowledge God has revealed.

Sometimes I am selfish and ignore the spiritual realm and don't pray about it and search scriptures, but God is teaching me to trust Him and not my own understanding or logic.

He tells me to step out in faith, that He will catch me if I fall. He will be a lamp upon my feet and though the world may judge me foolish, clumsy and naive. God says I am His beloved child and He will be my eyes and guide my feet, all I have to do is take His hand and go where He leads me.

It was a really powerful message when I was hiking 30 plus miles of the AT with the Methodist youth and didn't think I could make it without tripping and falling off the mountain or get eaten by a bear.

Anyway, God bless you all. Gonna kiss my kids awake and go on a bike ride.

 

[posthuman]

The questions that come to mind is:

1. How can people tell if someone is demonically influenced versus just listening to their fleshy desires?

2. What should people do if they suspect a demon is present?

Just a couple that come to mind

In re: (1), is there a difference, and what would the difference be? Is it just gradation?

. . and the question that first comes to my mind upon reading the OP, which is also in re: (2), since it's now been explained to us that the scripture is describing 'influence' rather than possession, as culture perceives, what does the scripture mean when it talks about 'casting out' demons?
Under my former impression, the sense of 'ownership' included a pervasive influence, and so casting out the demon rid a person of that influence and effectually liberated them from a bondage. In the sense that i am being taught ((and thank you very much, Lauren!!)) there is also a sense of liberation, but the idea of bondage - has that changed? From an absolute lack of control to a self-imposed subjection? So that the act of 'casting out' is acting both on the demon, expelling them from the person's mind, but also this acts on the person themselves, ridding them of their own willing subjection to the influence?

Or are people even able to do such things? How does the notion of 'total inability' due to our sin nature play here? Can anyone keep themselves from sin? Then how can we keep ourselves from demonic influence?
We need Christ!!

---

On this point, i'm reminded of Christ's teaching about when a demon is removed from a person, that it goes to arid places, and finding no rest, comes back to the person and finds everything neat and in order and ready for occupancy. The demon then returns with 7 of its compatriots, and the state of the person at the end is worse than at the first! ((Luke 11:24-26, and Matthew 12:43-45))

What is the teaching here? Isn't it that mankind is subject to influence - contrary to our proud view of ourselves, thinking we always act with free agency according to our own individual 'free choice' - and that if the influence of a demon is not replaced by the occupancy of the spirit of God, as it were, then a person who is rid of the influence of one devil becomes influenced by even more devils in the end?

So it is not sufficient to simply cast out the influence of demons one at a time -- then the work is never finished; it is like exterminating a house of pests by squishing a single ant at a time!

Is this right?

What is needed is Jesus Christ!!!
Casting out demons, ridding the presence and influence of them in people, without giving them the gospel, is ultimately useless - and may even be in the end, bad for a person, because you only make room for more demons!

 

[posthuman]

((OK, now to read the other 5-6 pages of this thread and see if what i put has already been addressed, lol))

 

[Ariel82]

So Satan and his minions are not very original thinkers and try to imitate God and twist His messages.

Ways Satan corrupts God's messages:

1. He cherry picks scriptures and tempts us with our fleshly desires (turning stone into bread), our pride ( cast yourself down and make God save you) and our lust for power (rule over all nations, people, your own life, etc.).

Other lies his demons love to brainwash people into believing: "you are worthless"(see previous post for rebuttal scriptures) " those promises aren't for you, God doesn't really love you." (yes He does and there are Bible verses if you need them)" you are losing your mind, normal people don't hear voices or see angels"(the Bible documents people seeing angels and demons) "you sick because you have hidden sin" (we have been washed clean of our sins through the blood)" you sin so demons have rights to your life until you repent and plead the blood of Jesus over the situation" (demons have no rights. You belong to God and all others are thieves and mob bosses trying to shake you down. Just pray, give thanks and praise God, it's like calling the spiritual 911. God will send His angelic police to take care of the problem. Would you try and beat up real life robbers?

Now some people will probably be offended because they believe these lies spread by demons. I prefer to believe people spread the lies out of immaturity and not testing the spirits and not out of willful misdirection in exchange for demonic powers. However many people who willfully worshipped Satan through witchcraft and wizardry have not shaken off all their familiar spirits and out of pride do not humble themselves before God.

Oh that is another lie often told "you are super special prophet and better than other Christians, they don't agree with you because they aren't as special."

That is a lie and appeals to people's pride. God says we are all equal in Christ. We are all sinners in need of a Savior. No matter how many spiritual gifts or good works we do, we are no better because without the blood of Christ, we would all go to hell for our sins. You only need one sin to be judged condemned, but through God's grace and the Blood We are redeemed.

Wow that's long..gonna post and then move on if I have time.

 

[posthuman]

Some one pointed out the armor of God....most are for,defense and only two are offensive..and it says to stand, not chase after demons or runaway from them.

Just an aside -- but while the sword is obviously an offensive weapon, it is also quite defensive, being every bit as useful as a shield to parry blows.

The shield, too, just as much as it is clearly defensive, can be used offensively - 'bashing' the opponent in the face, driving him backwards. Striking with the edge of it. You can kill a person with a shield.

These occur to me, but this third thing i had to be taught, oddly enough -- the shoes, too, can be used for offense. It wasn't until i heard a teacher say this in a sermon - but with hard boots, you can certainly inflict a whole lot of damage on someone by kicking, even to death.

Think about those things spiritually -- not just by the word of God, but also by our faith, and by the gospel of peace with God, our enemy can be destroyed! This certainly applies back to the OP

 

[Ariel82]

Awesome break over, back to the daily grind..kids need new shoes for school. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

 

[posthuman]

One Sunday, we went to church, and the pastor preached on this topic - and how demons do not possess Christians, (with a lot of Scripture) but they can oppress people. Then he used the illustration of something grabbing on your shoulder (the same shoulder I saw in my dreams) and how you couldn't rip it off. He said you had to break each leg separately to receive freedom, and much prayer against the demons. We were both stunned. He went up for prayer, and that is when each leg started to break. I don't remember what each leg was, but he has been better, except the one time we forgot the vaccine, which was one of the legs.

When i was just a teen, a man taught me about these things, describing them in almost exactly the same way. People everywhere, whose eyes God has opened, see the same things!

i don't know if anyone is familiar - and i don't endorse it, except that it is important and fine in terms of human literature - but this is like W.S. Burroughs' description of 'mugwumps' in his book, Naked Lunch. He was writing about addiction - primarily to drugs, but with application to many other things, including sin - but his eyes were open to the some of the same things, seeing them dimly, as through a murky glass. Dark, evil creatures who cling to a persons back, whispering into their ears, with many sharp arms digging into their flesh, as if to move them like puppets.

---

P.S.
My heart warms to see you back, Angela - you hadn't posted for a few weeks, and i had begun to be concerned that something had happened to you! i love you, elder sis

♥​

 

[PeterJens]

Now some people will probably be offended because they believe these lies spread by demons.

Last time I looked, it was the Holy Spirit who taught us through His word.
Anything else comes from another source, mainly man.

Most theology is taught by sincere people who for various reasons hold to their
perspectives. They are often very sincere and will jump down your throat if you
step on their pet areas.

What I personally need to learn is people make mistakes and have a loose grasp
of some people and issues in scripture, which to me are crystal clear.

A for instance is saying a demon led Peter to declare Jesus was the Messiah.
Scripture does not say this, actually it was the Father who revealed it to Peter.

But why would someone slip out such a phrase? Because the idea of deception,
manipulation is so strong in their mind it is everywhere.

But at what point does such an assertion become error, sin, a lie, blasphemy, slander,
something to be questioned?

Over many years, too long, these people and their stories become embedded into my
mind. Peter is impetious, he desires so much, yet is not mature enough to know if he
can deliver. He falls short, but Jesus knows how important this brother is to the gospel
and the church.

So being a Berean, is important. Letting all the words of Christ dwell in your heart,
to sleep on them, remember them, know them, feel them, see them is part of making
Jesus our Lord. We know what the lies of the enemy are when we dwell closely with
Jesus not by imagining there is any value in the deception of the spiritual realm the occult
brings.

The people from the "spiritual" dimension, often are absolutely certain of their special
knowledge and insight, rather than it actually being a real hinderance. Jesus talks about
us being as innocent as children, inquisitive and honest from the heart. This is the foundation
of who we are. All the insights of the past are not of the Kingdom, but another power and
foundation and should be left totally alone.

 

[Ariel82]

Yes...no possible way I could have been distracted and didnt proof read my post before typing...can't make a mistake, apologize and try and correct yourself around Peter...cuz if you don't agree with Peter or have a different view point you must be into the occult? (that Peter would be your barbs and arrows)

Here is a question Peter, does God still talk to people today and if so how?

 

[Ariel82]

In case you missed it

Oh that is another lie often told "you are super special prophet and better than other Christians, they don't agree with you because they aren't as special."

That is a lie and appeals to people's pride. God says we are all equal in Christ. We are all sinners in need of a Savior. No matter how many spiritual gifts or good works we do, we are no better because without the blood of Christ, we would all go to hell for our sins. You only need one sin to be judged condemned, but through God's grace and the Blood We are redeemed.

I should also add that all prophesy points to Christ and the gospel and not open to private interpretation. All words of knowledge is confirmed in fellow believers hearts by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Stephen63]

POSSESSION (by the demon(s), NOT the other way around):
Mark 5:1-8 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, [SUP]3 [/SUP]Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: [SUP]4 [/SUP]Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, [SUP]7 [/SUP]And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.


OPPRESSION (outside influence, not inside, being bound):
Luke 13:10-16 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. [SUP]15 [/SUP]The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? [SUP]16 [/SUP]And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

Possession is not by the person, but by the demon(s). He who controls possesses.

Exorcism is to cast out from within, not cast off from without. That is deliverance.

 

[Ariel82]

If the demon controlled/possessed the person completely, how was he able to ask Jesus for help? Was it the demon or the man who worshipped Him?

 

[Stephen63]

If the demon controlled/possessed the person completely, how was he able to ask Jesus for help? Was it the demon or the man who worshipped Him?

Mark 5:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran up and bowed down before Him; [SUP]7 [/SUP]and shouting with a loud voice, he *said, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!"

Notice the sentencing doesn't break..... same "person" reacting..... all the same context.

 

[pottersclay]

POSSESSION (by the demon(s), NOT the other way around):
Mark 5:1-8 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, [SUP]3 [/SUP]Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: [SUP]4 [/SUP]Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, [SUP]7 [/SUP]And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.


OPPRESSION (outside influence, not inside, being bound):
Luke 13:10-16 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. [SUP]15 [/SUP]The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? [SUP]16 [/SUP]And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

Possession is not by the person, but by the demon(s). He who controls possesses.

Exorcism is to cast out from within, not cast off from without. That is deliverance.

Exorcism and deliverance are not the same....though many believe it to be.

 

[pottersclay]

Exorcism actually an occult term.

 

[Ariel82]

Exorcism and deliverance are not the same....though many believe it to be.

Can you expand on the topic? What is the difference (besides what Stephen stated) and what are we called to do if we meet someone in either state?

What do you mean exorcism is an occult term?