Combat , the spirit v the flesh

[SilverFox7]

Thank you! I think I figured out why the colour of that Colossians' face was so reactive to ambient light changes...
and I have reduced the overall contrast accordingly, and hopefully not too much, and then slightly adjusted the
colour some more. I realize monitors all display differently, too, so what looks good to me may look completely
"off" to somebody else, but there is not much I can do about that. I have done this work on two different devices
and viewed them on even more as well over the last five years, and they look different in each one! Whaddya think?

Colossians 3:17
. My eyes are really starting to feel strained. I need a break from all this...

Love it! You choose key gospel-related scriptures and add a unique perspective to them with your gorgeous artwork.

Are those freckles I see on the cheek and nose of the one above? Super cool and love the detail!

 

[Magenta]

Love it! You choose key gospel-related scriptures and add a unique perspective to them with your gorgeous artwork.

Are those freckles I see on the cheek and nose of the one above? Super cool and love the detail!

Thank you! And yes, freckles LOL. I like them too .

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I like how it's described that the Spirit of God "began to move him" and "came upon him" referring to the power God exhibited to save His people and forgive them for their sins. There is nothing I saw in Judges about the Spirit living within these leaders like He did with King David. While Samson was a man of great physical strength, he was completely weak and powerless to resist lustful temptations that ultimately cost him his life.

The last verse of Judges sums up the sad state of Israel very well during that time:


Judges 21:25

King James Version

25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

It was a sad state of affairs for Israel at that time because on the whole, they did not seek out the Lord let alone attempt to live within the awesome covenant He made with them. It's impossible for the Spirit to work when people reject God and live a life of idolatry and lust for temporary pleasures.

yeah the spirit living in us is of the gospel I was wondering about the interactions and differences between old and new

But then

“Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭63:11

“And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭11:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can see that Gods spirit was always working in and through and with man though the permanent filling of the spirit in us comes through Christ I eas wondering what you had noticed about the ot interactions and how it’s a pattern of what would be accomplished later ?



what I was asking is about how the spirit interacted in the past with men specifically the judges and also how he differently interacted with prophets like Elijah and Elisha for instance look at the spiritual references

“And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.”
‭‭2 Kings‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.

And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him. And he said, Bring me a new cruse, and put salt therein. And they brought it to him. And he went forth unto the spring of the waters, and cast the salt in there, and said, Thus saith the LORD, I have healed these waters; there shall not be from thence any more death or barren land. So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake.

And he went up from thence unto Beth-el: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.”
‭‭2 Kings‬ ‭2:14-15, 20-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or for instance

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭27:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD's people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭11:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems as prophets had a soecifically and close relationship with Gods spirit but the people didn’t have the same access to the spirit as the prophets

I was just wondering in general what you had noticed about the spirits interactions with the people in the ot before the gospel was given in full to all nations

Even from this verse forward

“And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To this verse

“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:17, 20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[SilverFox7]

“Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭63:11

Great questions, Pilgrim! The Holy Spirit was certainly at work in OT times as well but not to the same degree it is in NT times since that Day of Pentecost where it came upon Jesus' disciples in power and set the stage for the church to flourish and begin spreading the Gospel to all nations.

Some patriarchs, prophets, and at least one king had that special foretaste of the Spirit living within them like Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elisha & Elijah, and of course king David. But, on the whole, we see wording like the Spirit "resting upon" others for certain purposes.

As Jesus said:

John 16:7

King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

God's NT plan entailed first of all sending Jesus to teach His disciples and suffer and die for our sins. Then, the Holy Spirit was made available to all who are baptized and accept Jesus as their Lord & Savior.

Our God is a patient God. He starts things small and then builds it into something magnificent and powerful. The Holy Spirit being made available to us after Jesus' death is one example of how God's plans often start small and then grow into what we see today with millions of Christians spreading the good news of Jesus and being lights within often dark world!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Great questions, Pilgrim! The Holy Spirit was certainly at work in OT times as well but not to the same degree it is in NT times since that Day of Pentecost where it came upon Jesus' disciples in power and set the stage for the church to flourish and begin spreading the Gospel to all nations.

Some patriarchs, prophets, and at least one king had that special foretaste of the Spirit living within them like Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elisha & Elijah, and of course king David. But, on the whole, we see wording like the Spirit "resting upon" others for certain purposes.

As Jesus said:

John 16:7

King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

God's NT plan entailed first of all sending Jesus to teach His disciples and suffer and die for our sins. Then, the Holy Spirit was made available to all who are baptized and accept Jesus as their Lord & Savior.

Our God is a patient God. He starts things small and then builds it into something magnificent and powerful. The Holy Spirit being made available to us after Jesus' death is one example of how God's plans often start small and then grow into what we see today with millions of Christians spreading the good news of Jesus and being lights within often dark world!

Where do you suppose adams living spirit came from ?

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;

and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJ

“All the while my breath is in me, And the spirit of God is in my nostrils;”
‭‭Job‬ ‭27:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭

reconciled redeemed restored ….

 

[SilverFox7]

Where do you suppose adams living spirit came from ?

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;

and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJ

“All the while my breath is in me, And the spirit of God is in my nostrils;”
‭‭Job‬ ‭27:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭

reconciled redeemed restored ….

There are some different theories about the spirit of man as distinct from the Holy Spirit. Adam became a "living soul." Really, this is life that God imparted to Adam yet in contrast to animals, God blessed us with intellect and emotions along with the ability to have a direct relationship with Him. This "soul" is not eternal--it lasts for our short sojourn as mortals on this troubled planet.

Adam and Eve could have partaken of the fruit from the Tree of Life, but instead they chose the fruit of having "freedom" from God to live life as they desired.

True life from my point of view begins when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. The Holy Spirit becomes an integral part of our "souls", and we have an intimate relationship with God--we are tied to Him, and it should ideally be a partnership every moment of our lives.

Conversations like these just fire up the Spirit in me because we are in communion with our Loving Lord during our fellowship. It is a "high" like nothing else, and there are no negative side effects.

Have you felt that, too, Pilgrim?

 

[Nehemiah6]

This "soul" is not eternal--it lasts for our short sojourn as mortals on this troubled planet.

Souls and spirits are imperishable. Therefore you could say they are eternal. Eventually all souls and spirits will receive resurrected bodies. But there is one resurrection for the just (the righteous) and another for the unjust (the unrighteous). Annihilationism is a false doctrine. So is Soul Sleep.

 

[Aaron56]

There are some different theories about the spirit of man as distinct from the Holy Spirit. Adam became a "living soul." Really, this is life that God imparted to Adam yet in contrast to animals, God blessed us with intellect and emotions along with the ability to have a direct relationship with Him. This "soul" is not eternal--it lasts for our short sojourn as mortals on this troubled planet.

Adam and Eve could have partaken of the fruit from the Tree of Life, but instead they chose the fruit of having "freedom" from God to live life as they desired.

True life from my point of view begins when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. The Holy Spirit becomes an integral part of our "souls", and we have an intimate relationship with God--we are tied to Him, and it should ideally be a partnership every moment of our lives.

Conversations like these just fire up the Spirit in me because we are in communion with our Loving Lord during our fellowship. It is a "high" like nothing else, and there are no negative side effects.

Have you felt that, too, Pilgrim?

This thread delivers.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There are some different theories about the spirit of man as distinct from the Holy Spirit. Adam became a "living soul." Really, this is life that God imparted to Adam yet in contrast to animals, God blessed us with intellect and emotions along with the ability to have a direct relationship with Him. This "soul" is not eternal--it lasts for our short sojourn as mortals on this troubled planet.

Adam and Eve could have partaken of the fruit from the Tree of Life, but instead they chose the fruit of having "freedom" from God to live life as they desired.

True life from my point of view begins when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. The Holy Spirit becomes an integral part of our "souls", and we have an intimate relationship with God--we are tied to Him, and it should ideally be a partnership every moment of our lives.

Conversations like these just fire up the Spirit in me because we are in communion with our Loving Lord during our fellowship. It is a "high" like nothing else, and there are no negative side effects.

Have you felt that, too, Pilgrim?

yes brother it’s the reason I spend a lot of free time here that stirring of the spirit, it’s a Jesus thing and a real thing a word of God thing and I love it and feel it alot with certain people here


ayes I agree with what your saying and your thoughts there do you notice that a living soul has two parts ? One is the body god formed of the mud , the other is the living spirit breathed into him.

“And the LORD God formed man ( body ) of the dust of the ground,

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;( spirit )

and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see what makes us children of God is exclusively his spirit in us I’m sure you agree there but notice this

“which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:38‬ ‭

Man a created body filled with a living spirit became a living soul. But when the body dies what happens to the living spirit inside ? The opposite of creation the body decays and dies the spirit returns to God who gave it for judgement so at death it’s the opposite

“Then shall the dust return to the dust as it was:

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”( breath of life )
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬


What happened was man followed the flesh rather than spirit and condemned themselves

“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

these two part of mankind are contrary since they ate the contrary fruit of good and evil it corrupted the flesh and the spirit still presses man for good .ot made the spirit god gave us become contrary to the flesh made of the earth so you can go back to the conflict there to see the issue between man’s spirit which came from god and the flesh which is corrupt through the knowledge of evil which gives birth to the lnguage of the new testement

ado you have this conflict there from genesis 6 between the two parts of mankind flesh’s and spirit

“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Man is in conflict between good and evil spirit and flesh


“For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh;

but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬





“That which is born of the flesh is flesh;

and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The point of all this is many see the holt spirit as a new replacement spirit for our old spirit but that’s not the case our living spirit is being redeemed by the holt spirit who comes to us as a companion , shepherd , leader healer ect redeeming our spirit

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

All living spirit came from God even the living spirit in mankind Jesus spirit comes to live in us and redeem and lead our spirit home to the father

What meaning to say is Adam lost companionship with Gods spirit and the gospel is what restores it for us

adam caused this to happen God out then in Eden with him but then

“So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

about Jesus work is to restore the doorway and remove the flames i Vito gnus back In restoring what man lost by sin

“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I see man’s spirit as a gift from God a portion of his living spirit , the. Man corrupted themselves through flesh , now we’re being called to do this and overcome the flesh win the victory of that battle between spirit and flesh

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think brother all things come from Gods spirit including mans , the Holy Ghost is the spirit of Jesus come to live in us and be with us leading our spirit home we literally are his disciples spiritually and walk with him daily

 

[SilverFox7]

Man a created body filled with a living spirit became a living soul. But when the body dies what happens to the living spirit inside ? The opposite of creation the body decays and dies the spirit returns to God who gave it for judgement so at death it’s the opposite

“Then shall the dust return to the dust as it was:

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”( breath of life )
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I love how you point out that ultimately our heritage ties back to our Creator and Father, God. One of my pastors made a great observation that we were made incomplete with the body and the human spirit (some say "soul"). He noted that the completion stage happens when we partake of the Tree of Life. Unfortunately for all of us, Adam and Eve (representing all of us) ignored God and chose to listen to and follow Satan instead.

All of that is being repaired now, however. The redemption begins with Jesus Christ and our completion in this life happens when we accept Him as our Lord and Savior and receive that other Spirit we so desperately need to live the abundant life now and receive the gift of eternal life in the future!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I love how you point out that ultimately our heritage ties back to our Creator and Father, God. One of my pastors made a great observation that we were made incomplete with the body and the human spirit (some say "soul"). He noted that the completion stage happens when we partake of the Tree of Life. Unfortunately for all of us, Adam and Eve (representing all of us) ignored God and chose to listen to and follow Satan instead.

All of that is being repaired now, however. The redemption begins with Jesus Christ and our completion in this life happens when we accept Him as our Lord and Savior and receive that other Spirit we so desperately need to live the abundant life now and receive the gift of eternal life in the future!

yes brother we need that relationship with Jesus but what I’m saying is

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Beginning and end is of God without sin before sin and after remission but the middle parts

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

…Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12, 19, 23-25‬ ‭

The beginning is Gods plan , the end is Gods plan , the middle is Gods plan corrupted by man’s sin

In genesis one Gods plan for this began To unfold

This is also in the beginning

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What I’m saying is I agree Christ is the only way but he is God the creator who was with them in Eden they had a relationship with his Holy Spirit and then we’re driven out and a barrier was set between them and he the flaming sword

The gospel is about restoring what man lost , reconciling that relationship lost through Adam and all Men’s transgression

“to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the gospel is a restoration and of what man was designed to be before sin

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

abut man became like this through sin

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

clearly this is not his intention when he made man in his image he’s repenting and grieved in his heart that he made mankind who he called very good in the beginning man does a deep spiral downward through the ot and eventually we need to see gods image again because we’re so distorted from it through sin so then we see Jesus

“in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Believers are being redeemed to what man is made to be from the start

“But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:18


the term reconciled is very specific it implies clearly a prior existing relationship that went badly and there was a seperation but later there is an act of reconciliation between the two parties

Jesus dying on the cross is his act of reconciliation between man and God and our act of reconciliation to God is to hear and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ just as Adam rejected his word

 

[SilverFox7]

the term reconciled is very specific it implies clearly a prior existing relationship that went badly and there was a seperation but later there is an act of reconciliation between the two parties

Jesus dying on the cross is his act of reconciliation between man and God and our act of reconciliation to God is to hear and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ just as Adam rejected his word

Amen. I think you have summed all of this up extremely well. I'm curious to read your thoughts about our "souls". If the soul is eternal, why does Ezekiel, for example, say that the soul that sins shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20

King James Version


20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

And, if for example, I die and go to heaven, what is the point of the resurrection of the dead saints who will meet Jesus in the atmosphere at His return?

I know there are many perspectives on this topic within our Christian community, but the one that makes the most sense to me is when we die, we are indeed dead (absence of life). Then, as Christians we will be raised from the dead in our new resurrected bodies when Christ returns in power and glory to establish His kingdom here on earth (see example scriptures below from the Apostle Paul):

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

King James Version


13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Enjoy your hopefully long 4th of July weekend, brother!

SF

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Amen. I think you have summed all of this up extremely well. I'm curious to read your thoughts about our "souls". If the soul is eternal, why does Ezekiel, for example, say that the soul that sins shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20

King James Version


20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

And, if for example, I die and go to heaven, what is the point of the resurrection of the dead saints who will meet Jesus in the atmosphere at His return?

I know there are many perspectives on this topic within our Christian community, but the one that makes the most sense to me is when we die, we are indeed dead (absence of life). Then, as Christians we will be raised from the dead in our new resurrected bodies when Christ returns in power and glory to establish His kingdom here on earth (see example scriptures below from the Apostle Paul):

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

King James Version


13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Enjoy your hopefully long 4th of July weekend, brother!

SF

a thank you brother I hope you also enjoy your weekend and hopefully time with family and friends !!

See this here brother

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God said let’s make man ( singular ) in our image ( multiple )

We know this part

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So he’s declared what he’s going to do create man in the image of God to rule over the material things he created in earth. .This shows us more details of the how he did this creation of man in his own image and likeness

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, ( body )

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; ( living spirit )

and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

consider this

“And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

adamnis a living soul but he isn’t yet complete of course, in the big picture but already you see Gods living spirit placed inside a man which brings life to the created man.

So you see it here man’s true purpose and function and place from the very beginning as a habitation for a portion of the spirit of life that God is and that that has created all things.

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“.. for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them;

and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭6:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i bekieve this is actually man’s full purpose in tbe plan of creation from the very start but it was never meant to be finished until man fell into sin and death Christ came and then we had an image of God to see and believe in and be changed into

so when you see the living soul of Adam created when God breathed into him it’s only the beginning of mankind’s eventual process of living in the body of flesh , parting from this tabernacle , and becoming the image of Christ glorified

The chapter you might want to zero in on is here it really delves deep into this matter the restoration part and how a living soul is on the earth a man that has a personal intimate spiritual relationship and fellowship with God. But the spirit is what is being raised up and glorified because God is a spirit more than flesh not less but far more

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

…There are also celestial bodies,( heavenly ) and bodies terrestrial: ( earthly ) but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, The first man Adam ( ot first man ) was made a living soul;

the last Adam ( nt first man ) was made a quickening spirit.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; ( Adam the living soul was created first )

and afterward that which is spiritual. ( Jesus the firstborn of the dead revealed afterwards )

The first man ( Adam ) is of the earth, earthy:

the second man is the Lord ( Jesus ) from heaven.


And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35-37, 40, 42-47, 49-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This sounds crude a bit but in my mind it’s like an incubator process mans spirit with Jesus spirit inside a temple of our body and in the end the living soul is glorified and saved through the spirit while parting from the corrupted flesh and blood body goven a new and eternal body of Christ and not Adam for a new and eternal world promosed and inherited through Christ and the gospel and not Adam and the law

So soul in my own conclusion is what we are when a spirit from God is living inside a body on earth and we will eventually shed this form of flesh and blood because it’s temporary due to sin and death but then our spirit who we actually are inside will go to God for judgement if we’re believers of not we have to sleep and wait until the end.

i see both Testaments as two parts of Gods ultimate plan one to show man what it’s like to revel against god and die and the other based on his forward promises in tbe ot what it’s like for God to have mercy and love towards you and re create you into a better person and one he calls his child what it’s like if he decides to save you even though you destroyed and condemned yourself before what if he reaches out on reconciliation and salvation and said just hear and believe me and follow and forget the old things

sort of the rise and fall of creation but then the restoration and promise of a new one where believers will dwell in peace forever with him like it was in Eden before sin began to reign in mankind and brought death and destruction

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I believe a soul which doesn’t repent will perish but those who repent and believe the gospel have passed from that death of sin into life and will be made something more that Adam the living soul but in Gods image glorified in the heavens with Christ Jesus

“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:4-7‬ ‭

There’s so much he’s got planned for mankind ahead to fill eternity we can’t even imagine or fathom his eternal plans but we are going to be glorified as of we had never sinned and made I to his image again whom is without sin

 

[Magenta]

Souls and spirits are imperishable. Therefore you could say they are eternal.

Your assertions directly contradict Scripture (1 Timothy 6:16) ~

He alone (God) is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light.

Our God is a Consuming Fire

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Amen. I think you have summed all of this up extremely well. I'm curious to read your thoughts about our "souls". If the soul is eternal, why does Ezekiel, for example, say that the soul that sins shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20

King James Version


20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

And, if for example, I die and go to heaven, what is the point of the resurrection of the dead saints who will meet Jesus in the atmosphere at His return?

I know there are many perspectives on this topic within our Christian community, but the one that makes the most sense to me is when we die, we are indeed dead (absence of life). Then, as Christians we will be raised from the dead in our new resurrected bodies when Christ returns in power and glory to establish His kingdom here on earth (see example scriptures below from the Apostle Paul):

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

King James Version


13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Enjoy your hopefully long 4th of July weekend, brother!

SF

And, if for example, I die and go to heaven, what is the point of the resurrection of the dead saints who will meet Jesus in the atmosphere at His return?

that part depends on this part

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

some truly believe in Jesus that he’s gods son he lives and died fornthier sins and was raised up the third day ect but they don’t hear his word and keep his word

“Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:54‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s independent from the other promise of never encountering death ( spiritually not bodily ) some will sleep when they die because they haven’t repented and faced judgement rejecting it when they rejected his word

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See there are two groups in this those who hear and keep Jesus words d will be translated when tbier body dies and never enter into death but into heaven

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, ( two times now and also later ) when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24-25, 28-29‬ ‭

some christians die in thier sins and have to wait u til the last day and judgement others repent now and follow his judgements and tbey ere translated into the kingdom of you notice he brings e redeemed back with him but also there’s a group that is raised up d also a loving group that is suddenly changed ?

it depends on what we have heard and how we respond to it if we repent and obey the lord or if we believe he died and rose and reject his judgements or if we reject the gospel entirely and reject God completely is another situation

a remember this ?

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now consider this

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then consider this

“And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:42-43‬ ‭

a then lastly consider this

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, ( the martyrs and also the faithful )

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

…..And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. ( end of the world ) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:

and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. ( no atonement )

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”(atonement for believers whose works were yet imperfect )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:4-5, 11-15‬ ‭

I personally and anything I ever say is just my own thinking , but I don’t think it’s as cut and dried as we sometimes feel based on what we ourselves know others dont know the same things we do some reject the things they read but others just never hear them in order to believe them so each believer really has thier own unique standards based on what they know of Christs word some will translated at death , others will sleep and wait until the last day to be raised and judged and thier faith in Christ will save them also that day but hey won’t be part of the first resurrection given to those who repent now and follow Jesus as disciples and the martyrs.

some whos works fail will be saved “ as by fire “

“If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Nehemiah6]

Your assertions directly contradict Scripture (1 Timothy 6:16) ~

HAHAHHAHAHAHA

 

[Magenta]

HAHAHHAHAHAHA

That you find Scripture laughable should be disturbing to you.

He alone (God) is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light.

 

[SilverFox7]

And, if for example, I die and go to heaven, what is the point of the resurrection of the dead saints who will meet Jesus in the atmosphere at His return?

that part depends on this part

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

some truly believe in Jesus that he’s gods son he lives and died fornthier sins and was raised up the third day ect but they don’t hear his word and keep his word

“Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:54‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s independent from the other promise of never encountering death ( spiritually not bodily ) some will sleep when they die because they haven’t repented and faced judgement rejecting it when they rejected his word

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See there are two groups in this those who hear and keep Jesus words d will be translated when tbier body dies and never enter into death but into heaven

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, ( two times now and also later ) when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24-25, 28-29‬ ‭

some christians die in thier sins and have to wait u til the last day and judgement others repent now and follow his judgements and tbey ere translated into the kingdom of you notice he brings e redeemed back with him but also there’s a group that is raised up d also a loving group that is suddenly changed ?

it depends on what we have heard and how we respond to it if we repent and obey the lord or if we believe he died and rose and reject his judgements or if we reject the gospel entirely and reject God completely is another situation

a remember this ?

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now consider this

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then consider this

“And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:42-43‬ ‭

a then lastly consider this

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, ( the martyrs and also the faithful )

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

…..And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. ( end of the world ) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:

and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. ( no atonement )

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”(atonement for believers whose works were yet imperfect )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:4-5, 11-15‬ ‭

I personally and anything I ever say is just my own thinking , but I don’t think it’s as cut and dried as we sometimes feel based on what we ourselves know others dont know the same things we do some reject the things they read but others just never hear them in order to believe them so each believer really has thier own unique standards based on what they know of Christs word some will translated at death , others will sleep and wait until the last day to be raised and judged and thier faith in Christ will save them also that day but hey won’t be part of the first resurrection given to those who repent now and follow Jesus as disciples and the martyrs.

some whos works fail will be saved “ as by fire “
“If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Fantastic work! I will need to soak all of this in, but you have certainly provided some new perspectives I haven't considered.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Fantastic work! I will need to soak all of this in, but you have certainly provided some new perspectives I haven't considered.

amen brother that’s my only intent just consideration Others may not have considered same thing I look for here things to consider that I may not have before

 

[SilverFox7]

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

…There are also celestial bodies,( heavenly ) and bodies terrestrial: ( earthly ) but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, The first man Adam ( ot first man ) was made a living soul;

the last Adam ( nt first man ) was made a quickening spirit.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; ( Adam the living soul was created first )

and afterward that which is spiritual. ( Jesus the firstborn of the dead revealed afterwards )

The first man ( Adam ) is of the earth, earthy:

the second man is the Lord ( Jesus ) from heaven.

These are really encouraging verses from the Apostle Paul because he gives us a great glimpse into what God has planned for us. We need to make the most of this short mortal life for sure to spread the good news and allow Jesus to shine through us to those who we interact with on a daily basis. However, we are moving towards something much bigger as you noted, brother.

This temporary dwelling place (our mortal bodies and minds) that are often filled with pain and weakness will be replaced by an imperishable body that will be raised in "power" and "glory". I suspect it will be very similar to Jesus' resurrected body when He appeared to His disciples on several occasions after His resurrection and before the ascension.

The resurrected Jesus was physical, yet He could hide His identity from His disciples. They could feel Him, He was able to enjoy some grilled fish with Peter and a few others, but He was also able to vanish and appear as needed, too.

I enjoy my life and the work I am doing currently for the Lord, but I can't wait to experience eternal life and what God has planned for us as His resurrected children and family!