Concerning the gift of tongues
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It is good to know what you assume based on nothing more than that is what people often do, but I do not appreciate your
desire to cast shade. You have a nasty habit of doing that. I simply quoted Scripture, which I thought we were discussing.
I must assume you do not consider the Holy Spirit of God not to be supernatural in any way, since you claim was
Scripture does say it is only by the Holy Spirit of God but you seem to be denying that.
Don't be coy. Why don't you just come right out and claim it?
desire to cast shade. You have a nasty habit of doing that. I simply quoted Scripture, which I thought we were discussing.
I must assume you do not consider the Holy Spirit of God not to be supernatural in any way, since you claim was
Scripture does say it is only by the Holy Spirit of God but you seem to be denying that.
Don't be coy. Why don't you just come right out and claim it?
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Yes, Scripture including:
TOP #120: God’s normative method of conversion is via persuasion. [2Cor.5:11] This method was practiced by Paul in the synagogue at Thessalonica (ACTS 17:1-4) and in Athens at a meeting of the Areopagus (Acts 17:16-34)
TOP #121: God’s love for all motivates the ministry of reconciliation. [2Cor 5:14-21] Believers receive God’s love via the gift of the Holy Spirit per TOP #29 (cf. #119).
TOP #258: Warn a divisive or argumentative person twice and then excommunicate him/her. [Tit. 3:9-11]
TOP #85: A community of believers should not associate with immoral people who claim to be Christians. [1Cor.5:1-13, Tit. 3:9-11]
Sins cited include sexual immorality, greed, idolatry, slander, drunkenness and swindling (cf. TOP #13) in the first passage,
and arguing, quarreling and divisiveness in the second. Such excommunication is an appropriate or approved form of judging.
TOP #129: Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the Christian faith. [2Cor. 13:5] Apparently, the self-test includes aiming for perfection (v.9 and TOP #188: The goal of Christian faith is to become blameless, PHP 2:14-16) Note that being indwelt by the HS does not result in immediate actual perfection, which remains a lifelong goal (as Paul will teach in 3:12).
The basis for passing the test in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
TOP #120: God’s normative method of conversion is via persuasion. [2Cor.5:11] This method was practiced by Paul in the synagogue at Thessalonica (ACTS 17:1-4) and in Athens at a meeting of the Areopagus (Acts 17:16-34)
TOP #121: God’s love for all motivates the ministry of reconciliation. [2Cor 5:14-21] Believers receive God’s love via the gift of the Holy Spirit per TOP #29 (cf. #119).
TOP #258: Warn a divisive or argumentative person twice and then excommunicate him/her. [Tit. 3:9-11]
TOP #85: A community of believers should not associate with immoral people who claim to be Christians. [1Cor.5:1-13, Tit. 3:9-11]
Sins cited include sexual immorality, greed, idolatry, slander, drunkenness and swindling (cf. TOP #13) in the first passage,
and arguing, quarreling and divisiveness in the second. Such excommunication is an appropriate or approved form of judging.
TOP #129: Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the Christian faith. [2Cor. 13:5] Apparently, the self-test includes aiming for perfection (v.9 and TOP #188: The goal of Christian faith is to become blameless, PHP 2:14-16) Note that being indwelt by the HS does not result in immediate actual perfection, which remains a lifelong goal (as Paul will teach in 3:12).
The basis for passing the test in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
- There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
- Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
- Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
- Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
- Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
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Read the below scriptures carefully noting how the body of Christ is equated to the body of a man with all the diverse pieces that must fit together and function together to make the body function as it should, and the gifts are likened together various body parts, enabling them to function as a composite unit.
Subject: Gifts Christian chat REPOST
Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.
First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.
Also keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future.
And too, keep in mind that the early church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, and prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned about in the Hebrew letter as well.
You have to first ask yourself and answer the question as to what is "that which is perfect"?
The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.
The "face to face" and "known as we are known" is relating to the distinction between the old testament readings, and coming to Christ via the New Testament and the comparison to the veil in reading Moses, and we now, they then, being able to look into a glass or mirror and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image. Ref below 1 Cor 13:12 and below 2 Cor 3 primarily verse 18 to understand what "face to face" is, namely, now we can, as they could, see a reflection of Christ metaphorically when looking into a mirror or "glass" because we now have Christ as they also did then, and are part of him, as opposed to under the old covenant as noted with the Moses comparison or analogy, or when Moses is read as was stated in the scripture.
To piece it all together, you must look at the gifts and the logic in, and need for them at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify it, as well as to grow the church such as by use of tongues, being a sign to unbelievers.
I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Galatians 3, and Ephesians 4. Look very closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get the true picture of their meaning as relates to the subject matter.
1 Corinthians 12:8-31
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many.
20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
2 Corinthians 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Galatians 3:23-27
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Ephesians 4:7-16
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Subject: Gifts Christian chat REPOST
Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.
First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.
Also keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future.
And too, keep in mind that the early church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, and prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned about in the Hebrew letter as well.
You have to first ask yourself and answer the question as to what is "that which is perfect"?
The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.
The "face to face" and "known as we are known" is relating to the distinction between the old testament readings, and coming to Christ via the New Testament and the comparison to the veil in reading Moses, and we now, they then, being able to look into a glass or mirror and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image. Ref below 1 Cor 13:12 and below 2 Cor 3 primarily verse 18 to understand what "face to face" is, namely, now we can, as they could, see a reflection of Christ metaphorically when looking into a mirror or "glass" because we now have Christ as they also did then, and are part of him, as opposed to under the old covenant as noted with the Moses comparison or analogy, or when Moses is read as was stated in the scripture.
To piece it all together, you must look at the gifts and the logic in, and need for them at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify it, as well as to grow the church such as by use of tongues, being a sign to unbelievers.
I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Galatians 3, and Ephesians 4. Look very closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get the true picture of their meaning as relates to the subject matter.
1 Corinthians 12:8-31
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many.
20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
2 Corinthians 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Galatians 3:23-27
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Ephesians 4:7-16
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Mormons cannot tell the difference between the Holy Spirit and demonic spirit or an evil spirit pretending to be an angel from God.
You do know that the devil masquerades as an angel of light? That is not attributed to the actual Holy Spirit or the spiritual gifts that God gives to believers who believe.
You do know that the devil masquerades as an angel of light? That is not attributed to the actual Holy Spirit or the spiritual gifts that God gives to believers who believe.
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What are actually you trying to say? The Bible answers all the questions but you seem to disagree. Perfection has nothing to do with the future of actual perfection with Christ even though even Paul himself states we only know in part but we will know even as we are known when the perfect comes.
Who wrote the copy/paste you attribute to a repost in this forum?
Who wrote the copy/paste you attribute to a repost in this forum?
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