CONDEMNATION IS THE ROOT CAUSE
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I admit I do not fully understand the concept of incorruptible seed, and how it can't be tainted. There are verses on this, but what I do know is that Jesus is our High Priest, so it is not necessary for me to understand it because I am comforted in the reality of Jesus as my High Priest interceding on my behalf, able to save me completely.
This concept of incorruptibility might be shown to be similar to the concept of Gnosticism, but again, counterfeits exists to stray people from the truth. The apostle Paul divided his flesh from his spirit, in discussing his actions. He made the distinction. Again, I can't say I completely understand these concepts, and in actuality it isn't a necessity when you completely place your faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us. Its like the fine details, if you will, but I at least have an idea of the big picture. Jesus, Lord and Savior. Paid the penalty for my sin. He resurrected. I am reconciled to God. Simple. lol
The assurance given due to incorruptible seed, in terms of salvation and eternal destination is just another layer upon which we may be comforted (if we understand it). You have the incorruptible seed, Holy Spirit as the seal of Redemption, and Jesus, Himself, as High Priest and Mediator. All of these comfort us, and give us assurance in our faith to one day be in Heaven.
I say all of this, because people want to accuse others of Gnosticism, but must keep an eye out for counterfeits. There is the real and then the fake. Gnosticism perverts the truth, though it may share similar concepts (incorruptible seed). VVe must be diligent to not toss out that which is of God.
This concept of incorruptibility might be shown to be similar to the concept of Gnosticism, but again, counterfeits exists to stray people from the truth. The apostle Paul divided his flesh from his spirit, in discussing his actions. He made the distinction. Again, I can't say I completely understand these concepts, and in actuality it isn't a necessity when you completely place your faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us. Its like the fine details, if you will, but I at least have an idea of the big picture. Jesus, Lord and Savior. Paid the penalty for my sin. He resurrected. I am reconciled to God. Simple. lol
The assurance given due to incorruptible seed, in terms of salvation and eternal destination is just another layer upon which we may be comforted (if we understand it). You have the incorruptible seed, Holy Spirit as the seal of Redemption, and Jesus, Himself, as High Priest and Mediator. All of these comfort us, and give us assurance in our faith to one day be in Heaven.
I say all of this, because people want to accuse others of Gnosticism, but must keep an eye out for counterfeits. There is the real and then the fake. Gnosticism perverts the truth, though it may share similar concepts (incorruptible seed). VVe must be diligent to not toss out that which is of God.
Here it is peter. It was a reply to you in another thread that I think you may have missed.
Well, I won't repeat my last post. If you choose to thiink we are born with Gods' love in us and born without sin in us but we develop it later, I don't see where it matches up with scripture, but it isn't a point of such importance as to need to be argued about.
What is of importance is your belief that Jesus didn't mean what He said or was not telling us the truth about anger in our heart being murder. It's not important to a natural man. And it's not important to a regenerated but carnal man. It is important to a spiritual man, a man who seeks to follow our Lord but doesn't know why he has no power.
A spiritual man is the only one who can be helped by what I'm going to say. He will understand it and may be helped.
Jesus said anger in our heart means we have ALREADY murdered. You say this is not the truth and that it is not murder unless he does it outwardly. And many regenerated, but carnal, men agree with you.
Since you know that no man is capable of NEVER having anger or resentments, you won't believe Jesus. Did He tell us the truth or are you telling us the truth? Because you can't both be right. Either you are right or Jesus is right.
Many men who have been regenerated agree with you. They see the same thing you do - since it is impossible that they never ever have anger and resentment, since it is not in their power to completely stop it, they cover it up in their hearts and insist they are not murderers. They are not agreeing with Jesus. They are refusing that He told them the truth about this because to believe Him means admitting that they can't stop sinning/murdering. This is refusing to come to the light (the truth) for fear our sins will be exposed.
He wants to change our minds and hearts about this. He wants to heal us of it and He wants to fulfill the law in us, that we don't murder. But He can't do the work He wants to do if we keep insisting what He said is not the truth. He didn't come to heal those who think they are well and have no sickness. He came to heal those who know they need a physician.
To say: well, since I can't stop having anger and resentment in my own power, it can't be murder. I will just disagree with Him and say it isn't sinning. This is refusing the light for fear our sins will be exposed.
Do you see how deceitful our hearts can be that we don't even SEE when we are doing this?
Jesus: Anger in your heart means you have ALREADY murdered.
Us: No, anger is NOT murder as long as it doesn't result in outward action.
Do you see that this is rejecting what our Lord has said?
It is impossible to follow Him while at the same time refusing to believe what He said.
Does this begin to show you how it is that others can say it is impossible to keep the law by our own efforts? They aren't talking about outward murder. They are talking about the standards of a holy God.
He can't heal us and renew our mind if we insist on not believing Him. (And because of their unbelief, He could not do many miracles there).
Well, I won't repeat my last post. If you choose to thiink we are born with Gods' love in us and born without sin in us but we develop it later, I don't see where it matches up with scripture, but it isn't a point of such importance as to need to be argued about.
What is of importance is your belief that Jesus didn't mean what He said or was not telling us the truth about anger in our heart being murder. It's not important to a natural man. And it's not important to a regenerated but carnal man. It is important to a spiritual man, a man who seeks to follow our Lord but doesn't know why he has no power.
A spiritual man is the only one who can be helped by what I'm going to say. He will understand it and may be helped.
Jesus said anger in our heart means we have ALREADY murdered. You say this is not the truth and that it is not murder unless he does it outwardly. And many regenerated, but carnal, men agree with you.
Since you know that no man is capable of NEVER having anger or resentments, you won't believe Jesus. Did He tell us the truth or are you telling us the truth? Because you can't both be right. Either you are right or Jesus is right.
Many men who have been regenerated agree with you. They see the same thing you do - since it is impossible that they never ever have anger and resentment, since it is not in their power to completely stop it, they cover it up in their hearts and insist they are not murderers. They are not agreeing with Jesus. They are refusing that He told them the truth about this because to believe Him means admitting that they can't stop sinning/murdering. This is refusing to come to the light (the truth) for fear our sins will be exposed.
He wants to change our minds and hearts about this. He wants to heal us of it and He wants to fulfill the law in us, that we don't murder. But He can't do the work He wants to do if we keep insisting what He said is not the truth. He didn't come to heal those who think they are well and have no sickness. He came to heal those who know they need a physician.
To say: well, since I can't stop having anger and resentment in my own power, it can't be murder. I will just disagree with Him and say it isn't sinning. This is refusing the light for fear our sins will be exposed.
Do you see how deceitful our hearts can be that we don't even SEE when we are doing this?
Jesus: Anger in your heart means you have ALREADY murdered.
Us: No, anger is NOT murder as long as it doesn't result in outward action.
Do you see that this is rejecting what our Lord has said?
It is impossible to follow Him while at the same time refusing to believe what He said.
Does this begin to show you how it is that others can say it is impossible to keep the law by our own efforts? They aren't talking about outward murder. They are talking about the standards of a holy God.
He can't heal us and renew our mind if we insist on not believing Him. (And because of their unbelief, He could not do many miracles there).
Now at least I understand where you're coming from I will pray about this...
L
ladylynn
Guest
Wow., that is a lot to respond to Angela. I will have to try and answer by paragraph and go back up to do so., So this will be the paragraph I wrote first. Am going up to answer some of your post...
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perhaps money is the root of all evil:read:
Psalms 49:16
Don’t be afraid when a man is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased.
17*For when he dies he shall carry nothing away.
****His glory shall not descend after him.
18*Though while he lived he blessed his soul—
****and men praise you when you do well for yourself—
****
19*he shall go to the generation of his fathers.
****They shall never see the light.
20*A man who has riches without understanding,
****is like the animals that perish.
... . as the enemy of roots of all evil
condemned money to be one of its faith
and saulo este pablo we mean
the apostle of the gentiles have wrote
:read:
1 Corinthians 4:6
Now these things, brothers, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to think beyond the things which are written, that none of you be puffed up against one another.
7*For who makes you different? And what do you have that you didn’t receive? But if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
:rofl: we just want to send the message
of this brethren (
talking while sleeping ) of ours :happy: we hope for all your kindly consideration
:ty:
godbless us all always
I agree Ben..
I listened to one of Dr. Brown's video about the gnostic view put forth here. He said Gnosticism was just starting back then when John wrote his epistle and it became full blown by a 100 years later.
I reflected on that and all heresy has it's roots in truth. The apostles were preaching that our inner man..our new creation in Christ was circumcised from our flesh. Paul called it the circumcision of Christ..of the flesh and of the heart.
Basically it's 2 sides of the same coin. This "apparent" schism from the flesh and spirit gives rise to all sorts of thoughts and in the unregenerate man - strange stuff can come out of that.
Of course we are responsible with what we do in these bodies because they are the temple of God and we do have this treasure ( Christ in us ) in an earthen vessel.
Paul called it the circumcision of the body of flesh from the heart.
Colossians 2:11-13 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
[SUP]12 [/SUP] having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Romans 2:29 (KJV)
[SUP]29[/SUP] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
If seems that when God sealed us with the Holy Spirit when we believed in Christ - He cut away our new man ( in our spirit ) in Christ from our body of flesh. This is why we have a new heart now in Christ.
Of course all this will be foolishness to people that don't believe Christians are even born again yet , let alone understand about the new birth of the new creation in Christ.
Those Scriptures are not necessarily specific to Greek Gnosticism. It was later when the early Church had to contend with the Gnostic movement in the 1st and 2nd century A.D. Irenaeus in his Against Heresies should be required reading on it.
Gnosticism involved a mix of pagan Greek philosophy with the early doctrines of Christianity. To this day many of the secret societies evolved from the ancient pagan "mystery schools" still teach Gnostic doctrine against Christ Jesus.
Just recently, a newly discovered papyrus fragment speaking of Jesus' wife was declared authentic by some Harvard nut, which is a sign of Gnostic influence, which in that case is only another denial of many of the Divinity of Jesus Christ as God The Son.
The Gnostics did not believe Jesus actually died on the cross, but instead that His disciples removed His body from the cross before He died, and that Jesus lived to old age, married, and had children. The pseudo book The Da Vinci Code was specifically about the continued existence of a literal blood lline from Jesus' loins, which of course is false. These fakes even treat the supernatural powers Jesus had as something that's passed on from generation to generation through His genes, that is how wrapped up in pagan superstition those Gnostics are. It's the same old ploy by Satan, trying to get you to deny that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ incarnate via The Holy Spirit.
Why do they want you to reject that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ? Because it affects your salvation of course, but what else? So you can be fooled into believing you can become your own... god, that you can save yourself. This is what the Gnostic 'knowledge' is rooted upon. The name Gnostic comes from the Greek word gnosis, which means 'to know', like firsthand experience. Their method of salvation they preach is through spiritual exercises that supposedly awakens their inner spirit to manifest powers in nature that all men in ancients times used to have (i.e., priests of Atlantis thing).
Thus their salvation idea is based on a DIY method, like scientific process almost. The heart of this idea began in ancient Sumer/Babylon, ancient India and China, ancient Egypt and Greece. The schools that taught these secrets would only teach them to the initiated, and to get in, you had to be accepted as a neophyte on probation before being allowed to start a study of the "mysteries" (which is still how secret societies today operate).
So in essence, Gnosticism is actually the same old pagan philosophy of the ancient "mystery schools" seeking to slide into Christianity and modify The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Here's an example of how Gnosticism tries to usurp principles of Christianity:
Once accepted as a neophyte and put on probation, you'd be told the reason why you sought these ancients out to join is because you knew there was more, and had questions no one could yet answer, which shows that you are Jesus' true elect. They love to play that idea of election upon you a lot. Only that you can do what Jesus did (our Lord Jesus say something on that order, but not how the Gnostics mean it). In reality, we can do nothing of ourselves.
Their point is that through your own works and thru spiritual exercises, your spirit can become literally perfect in the flesh and you become 'enlightened', 'illuminated'. That's why they treat our Lord Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, Zoroaster, etc., as all equals, as avatars sent every 2,000 years or so to the people on earth to evolve their spiritual learning.
In 17th century British Mason John Robison's book Proofs Of A Conspiracy, he mentioned a letter written by Adam Weishaupt, the founder of the Bavarian Illuminati, of how he had duped a certain Christian divine with his initiate degree on Christianity. Weishaupt said he didn't know that he would be the founder of a new religion (i.e., tainted form of Christianity, such as like Gnosticism).
One must needs ask, what's a high Christian Church leader doing on the membership roles of such an organization like Weishaupt's Illuminati order in 1770's Bavaria? It's because of how these pagans devise sneaky ways to appeal to the innocent who are looking for more knowledge than what God has given them.
They work how Satan worked in Luke 4 with tempting our Lord Jesus to jump down with quoting a Scripture in the Psalms showing Jesus would not be harmed. Satan added one short phrase to the original Scripture which changed its meaning. So if you didn't know what that Scripture originally said, then you might fall for Satan's modification of it. Our Lord Jesus instead of course rebuked Satan for it.
Yes he did. The two warring 'I's. Romans 7, I believe. His solution to the problem was to not obey the flesh. The gnostic solution is to simply deny it's existence.
Interesting, I'll go on record and say hyper-graxe gnostic thought are not the same even though it may appear that way to you right now.
It seems to be a matter of perception.
You are speaking from Earth to Heaven. Which is we are imperfect and being perfected.
We are speaking from Heaven to Earth. Which God has declared us new creations. And we believe it.
Is there a process to us seeing it? Yes, I call this obeduence.
You see I believe when God said He would write His law on my heart and mind, He was serious, and that as a new creation I do desire the things of God.
The places where I don't currently desire his ways is where I need to repent. And as I see Him, experience Him daily, He shows me the model I was designed after. I am not Him. But as you said I am joined with Him.
From imperfect to perfect my viewpont is, I am growing into who He already declared me to be.
Faith is needed in moments where i dont see His Will. I choose to still see myself and others how He says they are in Scripture. As His Will manifests in their life they grow into who He designed them to be.
What is your definition of faith? What is your understsnding of nee creation? And why do you think we are going bsck to Adam perfrct mind when we are reborn in the New Adam which is Christ. And we are called new creations, which is completely different. Scriptyre even says we have better promises in Christ.
You say, we are joined with the Lord.
But dont you think being joined with Him changes us?
Think of it like this:
Spirit (we are joined) > Soul (we got new and old stuff going on) > Body
This is the invading flow of His Kingdom on Earth tgrough us.
C.
QUOTE=HeRoseFromTheDead;2673060]The renewing of our minds is the restoring of our mind to what it was before Adam's sin. This means growing from an imperfect, flawed state into perfection.
The gnostic and hyper grace concept of renewing the mind is realizing that we are already perfect and rejecting and abandoning any ideas that conflict with this identity.[/QUOTE]
It seems to be a matter of perception.
You are speaking from Earth to Heaven. Which is we are imperfect and being perfected.
We are speaking from Heaven to Earth. Which God has declared us new creations. And we believe it.
Is there a process to us seeing it? Yes, I call this obeduence.
You see I believe when God said He would write His law on my heart and mind, He was serious, and that as a new creation I do desire the things of God.
The places where I don't currently desire his ways is where I need to repent. And as I see Him, experience Him daily, He shows me the model I was designed after. I am not Him. But as you said I am joined with Him.
From imperfect to perfect my viewpont is, I am growing into who He already declared me to be.
Faith is needed in moments where i dont see His Will. I choose to still see myself and others how He says they are in Scripture. As His Will manifests in their life they grow into who He designed them to be.
What is your definition of faith? What is your understsnding of nee creation? And why do you think we are going bsck to Adam perfrct mind when we are reborn in the New Adam which is Christ. And we are called new creations, which is completely different. Scriptyre even says we have better promises in Christ.
You say, we are joined with the Lord.
But dont you think being joined with Him changes us?
Think of it like this:
Spirit (we are joined) > Soul (we got new and old stuff going on) > Body
This is the invading flow of His Kingdom on Earth tgrough us.
C.
QUOTE=HeRoseFromTheDead;2673060]The renewing of our minds is the restoring of our mind to what it was before Adam's sin. This means growing from an imperfect, flawed state into perfection.
The gnostic and hyper grace concept of renewing the mind is realizing that we are already perfect and rejecting and abandoning any ideas that conflict with this identity.[/QUOTE]
Paul's solution was to walk by the Spirit. And by doing so you won't obey the flesh, since you can't do both.
It is those who are lead by the Spirit of God who are sons.
C.
It is those who are lead by the Spirit of God who are sons.
C.
what is your personal belief.
and who appointed you judge to who is in the body and who is not.
42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.Acts 10
batting religion about and what others believe , is not going to growing anything.
One Body with Many Members
12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body---Jews or Greeks, slaves or free---and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.19 If all were a single member, where would the body be?20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it,25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.1 Corinthians 12
and who appointed you judge to who is in the body and who is not.
42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.Acts 10
batting religion about and what others believe , is not going to growing anything.
One Body with Many Members
12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body---Jews or Greeks, slaves or free---and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.19 If all were a single member, where would the body be?20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it,25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.1 Corinthians 12
Amen...some try to do the opposite and try not to do things in the flesh when it's by the Spirit that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Being led by the Spirit of God is the ultimate standard whereby we may know someone is a son of God. This raises the question, “If you aren’t led by the Spirit of God, does that mean you are not born again?”
It is true that everyone who is not born again is not led by the Spirit of God and that everyone who is born again is led by the Spirit of God, but that requires some explanation.
First, there are varying degrees of being led by the Holy Spirit. No believers are following the leading of the Lord as much as they could be, and if an absolute standard was applied to this verse, no believers would qualify to be sons of God. With this in mind, believers have been led by the Spirit to some degree in making Jesus their Lord, if nothing else.
Second, being led by the Spirit does not cause people to be sons of God, but being sons of God causes them to be led by the Spirit.
All believers do have the Spirit of God to lead them, but that doesn’t mean all believers heed His leading. In context, Paul had just spoken about denying the flesh through the power and leading of the Holy Spirit. Here he was simply pointing out that all Christians have the leading of the Holy Spirit available to them to accomplish this.
for example
Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Galatians 2:
walking in faith is to walk in acceptance , that god has saved you through jesus christ. (no string attached)
ave believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ
if your still looking at law for justification, to what sin is. then your walking in the flesh.
Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Galatians 2:
walking in faith is to walk in acceptance , that god has saved you through jesus christ. (no string attached)
ave believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ
if your still looking at law for justification, to what sin is. then your walking in the flesh.
who appointed us judge.
do you get the drift. if your saved, your saved with gods seed, so how can it get incorruptible.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.John 10
so are you drifting toward free will. free choice. would live and learn as you walk with the spirit, sound simple
tells you here ,no one will snatch them out of my hand. how and when, did it go in to our hands etc
Here is the scripture that talks about incorruptible seed. Our new man in Christ was born again ( for those that believe in being born again ) and joined to the Lord and was created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:22-23
1 Peter 1:18-19 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
[SUP]19 [/SUP] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Being born again is in the perfect passive = a past event that it's completed effects are in a continuous present state...passive is that the Spirit of God did it to us.
Here Paul says that God is incorruptible.
Romans 1:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
My own personal believe is that sin in the flesh does not corrupt God who is one in my spirit. Nor does He move out of Christians if they sin. Paul told the Corinthians that they were taking the Holy Spirit with them when they were having sex with the temple prostitutes.
Paul's answer to these Corinthians who were doing all kinds of strange things - is to tell them who they were in Christ. In one case in which they were boasting - Paul said that he had decided to turn such a one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. This seems to have been a severe case done by a fully mature Christian that was in authority over them.