Condemned why?

[Shepherd]

John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

A warden of a prison decided to pardon everyone in the prison simply for saying "yes". Those who didn't say "yes" at the end of the day, would die when he had the place burned to the ground. So he went about sending letters of warnings to a few select inmates of his own choosing, and the warnings simply read: "whisper 'yes' to the warden when he walks past your cell". But the ones the warden had not chosen simply didnt get the letter.

At the end of the day all of the chosen ones had said "yes" and were freed from their cells and released from the prison. Then the warden sent out an announcement: "Ok, we are burning the prison down, all of you will die because you failed to say "yes".

The warden just LIED. Because the real reason they all will die, is because he never sent them the letter. Likewise, it's the same with Calvinistic theology.
But God says you're condemned because YOU failed to believe, not because God decided not to "enable you" to believe.

 

[Magenta]

My Bible says that men are without excuse.

 

[Shepherd]

My Bible says that men are without excuse.

Well, then Calvinism has to be a lie of the devil.

 

[Magenta]

Well, then Calvinism has to be a lie of the devil.

I can't say for certain what you mean when you say Calvinism because it seems there are quite a few different definitions of it floating around here among various members, some of whom surely do seem to have what is called CDS.

 

[Magenta]

It does seem what you are addressing largely is man's inability, but that is not exclusive to Calvinism, since Arminianism and also Molinism also teach it... Scripture affirms it and so does Jesus.

 

[timf]

One confusing thing about Calvinism is the English words elect and predestined. It might help to consider the elect as those who chose to accept an invitation extended to all. By making this choice, they gain entrance into a category that had been predetermined that some would occupy.

It can be tempting to consider ourselves the object Of God's full attention, however, we are warned against the danger of thinking too highly of ourselves;

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[NightTwister]

John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

A warden of a prison decided to pardon everyone in the prison simply for saying "yes". Those who didn't say "yes" at the end of the day, would die when he had the place burned to the ground. So he went about sending letters of warnings to a few select inmates of his own choosing, and the warnings simply read: "whisper 'yes' to the warden when he walks past your cell". But the ones the warden had not chosen simply didnt get the letter.

At the end of the day all of the chosen ones had said "yes" and were freed from their cells and released from the prison. Then the warden sent out an announcement: "Ok, we are burning the prison down, all of you will die because you failed to say "yes".

The warden just LIED. Because the real reason they all will die, is because he never sent them the letter. Likewise, it's the same with Calvinistic theology.
But God says you're condemned because YOU failed to believe, not because God decided not to "enable you" to believe.

LOL no.

 

[Magenta]

One confusing thing about Calvinism is the English words elect and predestined. It might help to consider the elect as those who chose to accept an invitation extended to all. By making this choice, they gain entrance into a category that had been predetermined that some would occupy.

From 1 Peter 1 verses 3-5 ~ The elect are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood. By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Magenta]

One confusing thing about Calvinism is the English words elect and predestined. It might help to consider the elect as those who chose to accept an invitation extended to all. By making this choice, they gain entrance into a category that had been predetermined that some would occupy.

From Ephesians 1 verses 4-6 ~ He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

 

[Magenta]

One confusing thing about Calvinism is the English words elect and predestined. It might help to consider the elect as those who chose to accept an invitation extended to all. By making this choice, they gain entrance into a category that had been predetermined that some would occupy.

In Revelation 19, at the wedding supper of the Lamb, such an invitation goes out, and one who responds
(gained entrance) is thrown out because he is not properly clothed. Do you know what the proper garments
are, and who was responsible for supplying them? Those who did not respond to the first invite felt they had
need of nothing, and we have those types here. Just earlier today someone made the claim that only atheists
are being referred to the numerous times it is said that the natural man is a slave to sin. Imagine that! It
really gets beyond bordering on ridiculous the things people substitute for what is actually written

from Revelation 3 verse 17-18 ~ You say, ‘I need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

 

[homwardbound]

John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

A warden of a prison decided to pardon everyone in the prison simply for saying "yes". Those who didn't say "yes" at the end of the day, would die when he had the place burned to the ground. So he went about sending letters of warnings to a few select inmates of his own choosing, and the warnings simply read: "whisper 'yes' to the warden when he walks past your cell". But the ones the warden had not chosen simply didnt get the letter.

At the end of the day all of the chosen ones had said "yes" and were freed from their cells and released from the prison. Then the warden sent out an announcement: "Ok, we are burning the prison down, all of you will die because you failed to say "yes".

The warden just LIED. Because the real reason they all will die, is because he never sent them the letter. Likewise, it's the same with Calvinistic theology.
But God says you're condemned because YOU failed to believe, not because God decided not to "enable you" to believe.

I wrote sad to the post, because God has not missed anyone for the call. Jesus went to that cross once for us all, no one left out, everyone knows within themselves., God does just love them. The Confusion is religion, that takes charge over God and becomes God themselves, leading people into a ditch. Some doing that know that, some don't
As Saul, who became Paul got revealed and taught new to reveal to us all, God loves us all and calls us all to choose freedom in his risen Son and trust in God alone, who we do not see physically anymore, Phil 3 2 Cor 5:16
All, that got left from the cross is: To choose to believe God and no matter what troubles come on, anyone, stand as in Col 1, especially Col 1:21-23 Eph 1:6-7 Phil 1:6.
Anyone who turns to God in belief to God, gets married to God through risen Son for them. The fallen Angels hate this. Therefore will do whatever can do, even try to plant thought in wrong interpreting of scripture. To beset anyone that will listen to evil acting as good, trying to say you got troubles, because you sinned again and God is berating you. That is a lie, since, Son took all sin away for us all 1 John2:1-4 on the cross John 19:30, John 1:29
We can read this in Job also, before the cross. Those worldly counselors, kept saying to Job. You must have sinned God is punishing you! Not true, Job would say and started getting a little haughty over it. Then God took Job in to teach him what was happening to him over the sin issue ordeal people do to one another to this day and are wrong when God took away all sin at the cross for us all in Son's one time willing death, that he is now risen from forever in eternity for us all to choose to beleoive and not quit to one day see truth over adversities happening here on earth to all. The rain does not pick anyone good or bad it rains on us all
The issue now is believe God and stand in God or not

 

[homwardbound]

In Revelation 19, at the wedding supper of the Lamb, such an invitation goes out, and one who responds
(gained entrance) is thrown out because he is not properly clothed. Do you know what the proper garments
are, and who was responsible for supplying them? Those who did not respond to the first invite felt they had
need of nothing, and we have those types here. Just earlier today someone made the claim that only atheists
are being referred to the numerous times it is said that the natural man is a slave to sin. Imagine that! It
really gets beyond bordering on ridiculous the things people substitute for what is actually written

from Revelation 3 verse 17-18 ~ You say, ‘I need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Believe God in risen Son for you. Receive the truth from God once believe God and one will see as long as one does not quit, thanks

 

[Melach]

It does seem what you are addressing largely is man's inability, but that is not exclusive to Calvinism, since Arminianism and also Molinism also teach it... Scripture affirms it and so does Jesus.

most people who claim arminianism are semi-pelagian these days.

the natural man just cannot accept they are at the mercy of God and must depend on grace wholly. there has to be a 50-50. "God did His part, now i do mine"

 

[GWH]

most people who claim arminianism are semi-pelagian these days.

the natural man just cannot accept they are at the mercy of God and must depend on grace wholly. there has to be a 50-50. "God did His part, now i do mine"

Exactly! God initiates; sinners cooperate--or say "no".
However, the natural tulipist just cannot accept that the ability to reject saying "yes" to God's grace
that enables seeking His salvation is what makes souls accountable and hell consistent with divine love,
which I just explained elsewhere but is also relevant on this thread:


My understanding from Scripture about the justness of hell/being condemned for saying "no" to God is as follows:

{{{A person—even a theist—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.

This, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken.

God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (MT 12:39, 24:24, 1CR 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (MT 23:37). Two unusual theophanies included when God appeared to Moses (in a burning bush per EX 3:2-6), whom God wanted to establish the Jewish lineage for the Messiah (OT), and to Saul/Paul (as the resurrected Jesus in ACTS 9:3-6), whom God chose to establish the NT church of Christ. Miracles are rare (not normative).

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil (or yes and no). These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good/yes results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil/no results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects/says no to the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting/saying no to Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word. God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

Why would anyone choose to believe otherwise? Only God knows why people choose atheism/say "no". It is a mystery stated by Isaiah, which is cited by Jesus (in MT 13:14-15): “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused.” Apparently, this callous attitude demands God to nullify faith/MFW and thereby abrogate the essence of humanness by performing miracles in order to prove He exists (MT 12:39, 24:24, JN 20:29 & 1CR 1:22). In other words, atheists presume to know better than God; they want to usurp divine authority to determine what is best or good, but they may one day (at the eschaton per RV 20:15) wish they had admitted the possibility that God has ordained this mortal life on earth for the purpose of people proving to Him who is worthy of (qualified for) eternal life in heaven (cf. RM 2:5-8 & 2CR 13:5; heart/mind: hard or open?).

Such evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per JN 17:12, RM 9:22, GL 6:8, PHP 3:19, 2THS 1:9, 2PT 3:7 & RV 20:13-14).}}}

What do you think about this rationale for hell?
(Hope you don't mind the format of the citations; I need to change it on our website sometime.)

 

[homwardbound]

most people who claim arminianism are semi-pelagian these days.

the natural man just cannot accept they are at the mercy of God and must depend on grace wholly. there has to be a 50-50. "God did His part, now i do mine"

Me asking, so you are not 100% dependent on God? Along with other groups of claimed believers?
Me, I am 100% dependent on God, being given risen Son to stand in. Now I do not always act as if got it, yet am thankful from God I got it, thanks

 

[GWH]

Me asking, so you are not 100% dependent on God? Along with other groups of claimed believers?
Me, I am 100% dependent on God, being given risen Son to stand in. Now I do not always act as if got it, yet am thankful from God I got it, thanks

Me too, and everyone including atheists are totally dependent on God,
including for the MFW that is allows them to ignore Him..

 

[rrcn]

While there are many perspectives on the situation I believe this may be the best summary:
[Jhn 3:19 KJV] 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

[GWH]

While there are many perspectives on the situation I believe this may be the best summary:
[Jhn 3:19 KJV] 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Well, let us expand the summary to include/begin with John 3:16-18.

 

[lrs68]

In plain words, not by how God wrote the events of what we read in the Bible. Let's look at the Gospels and especially John in a broader view. Let's take a look at it from the big picture we can see from Genesis to the Gospels.


1. God deals with man by way of the LAW.

2. Everything written, emphasizing the suffering and rejection concerning the coming Messiah doesn't really include many of the things we now understand. This includes the fact that the Messiah is God or the Son of Man let alone the Christophany of Melchizedek Priesthood.

So life is going on as normal, you take your sin offering to the Temple, you eat Kosher, you go to Synagogue, you obey God in every way that He commanded [(and we know it's kinda possible because the young rich man said he did and Yeshua confirmed it)] and you are just trying to survive the normalcy of life.

Then one day a man shows up and proclaims He is the [only way] to get to God.

Even Adam in his perfection and sinless state before falling would have scratched his head and said, WHAT?

Then we read the Gospels and it says man didn't accept light because they loved darkness.

If God did what He did 2,000 years ago today no one would at first find this rational.

***Now the kicker here also is the prophecy of Isaiah that said the Jews would be blinded and deafened by God***

But I say, from the viewpoint of NOW BEING ABLE to see the whole picture of what happened in Jesus day as a Follower of Christ.......... even now Saved and can understand what happened I still can see why the Jews were like.......WHAT?

 

[tablet123]

John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

A warden of a prison decided to pardon everyone in the prison simply for saying "yes". Those who didn't say "yes" at the end of the day, would die when he had the place burned to the ground. So he went about sending letters of warnings to a few select inmates of his own choosing, and the warnings simply read: "whisper 'yes' to the warden when he walks past your cell". But the ones the warden had not chosen simply didnt get the letter.

At the end of the day all of the chosen ones had said "yes" and were freed from their cells and released from the prison. Then the warden sent out an announcement: "Ok, we are burning the prison down, all of you will die because you failed to say "yes".

The warden just LIED. Because the real reason they all will die, is because he never sent them the letter. Likewise, it's the same with Calvinistic theology.
But God says you're condemned because YOU failed to believe, not because God decided not to "enable you" to believe.

Calvinistic theology is false.

We have a choice in our salvation for God's kingdom is true love.

If we do not make a choice in our salvation then it is robotic love which is not true love and God is not evil to condemn people who have no choice but to reject the truth.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.

God calls things that have not happened yet as though they happened for if it is a plan of Him to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hinderance.

Predestined to salvation does not mean God chooses who will be saved or not but it means He had the plan to give mankind salvation in the beginning but this salvation is to whoever wants it.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God wants all people to be saved and come to the truth.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God does not want anyone to perish but wants all people to come to repentance.

If Calvinism is true why is God commanding all people to repent.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Any person can have that salvation.

It is sad Calvinists are not on board with that.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

If Calvinism is true why is God calling people and not choosing them for if Calvinism is true all He would call would be saved.

God will call us according to our heart condition to work with us to get the truth and when we get to the door of truth we have to choose to walk through it for His kingdom is true love but we would of not got to the door of truth if He did not intervene in our life.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

These people did not walk through the door of truth and enjoy worldly pleasures.