Conditional Salvation
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agreed
Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Personal interpretation "adds works" to the Gospel. The Holy Spirit got it right from the beginning and has preserved the Gospel from the beginning, but apparently your church and other churches have not.
Those who don't believe the Gospel are wearing blinders (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). Justification is saved from the penalty of sin which equals salvation and not simply probation.
No, it's actually Scripture. I see that you continue to "parrot off" what your predecessors before you have taught.
You are the one who is confused.
A gift must be received. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Same gift in Romans 5:15-18. Salvation by grace through faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) and that's why it is NOT OF WORKS (vs. 9).
Eternal life is not given to all men, including unbelievers. Unbelievers have not received the gift of eternal life. Unbelievers are not justified by faith. Period.
You finally said it. Which we do by FAITH. It's not automatic to all men including unbelievers.
Which is saved from the penalty of sin "have been saved through faith" = salvation, not probation.
The faithful ones are ONLY those who from beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) trust in Christ as the all sufficient means of their salvation. Saving faith continues and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root and does not continue.
An empty profession of faith that remains alone (barren of works) = hell because this is not genuine faith but a dead faith. You say have faith AND DO HIS WILL as if our works "in addition to the cross" is what saves us. What is God's will for us to receive eternal life? John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Where do you see believes in Him "and do his will" in John 6:40 as if "believes in Him" is His insufficient will for us to receive eternal life and something further must be accomplished which constitutes "do His will" also and is then added as a supplement to believes in Him? People seem to write a blank check with "do His will" and fill in whatever amount of works they desire. Christ is an all sufficient Savior. No supplements needed.
I believe that Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient to save the world from death and sin (I don't believe in limited atonement), but not everyone in the world will automatically be saved from sin and death and receive eternal life with God. There is no universal salvation.
Not all men have been alive together with Christ and have been saved by grace through faith. Grace is Christ's part and faith is our part, not any works of the law, including the moral aspect of the law, which includes all good works. Salvation is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God.
Exactly!
Saved by grace through faith, not works. And it's not saved by grace through faith "infused with works", just not specific works of the law as Catholicism teaches. It's not faith + the 7 sacraments or faith + something else. It's faith IN CHRIST ALONE.
In other words, saved through faith to you means place on probation and if you are "faithful enough" then you finally inherit eternal life. How is that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works? Those with faith from beginning to end are faithful and will inherit eternal life. Those with a shallow temporary belief that has no root and does not endure are faithless and will not inherit eternal life.
You misunderstanding is placed on probation by grace through faith (not actually saved yet) then ultimately inherit eternal life by works (being faithful enough). How much is enough in your "is of yourselves" performance based plan of salvation?
I never denied salvation by grace part. The finished work of Christ not only makes it possible for man and God to be united now and for eternity, it makes it actual through faith.
I found it. How many different ways can you interpret "justified by faith alone in Christ" and other quotes that I cited from the Church Fathers?
Says you. That's what I've heard Roman Catholics and Mormons claim as well.
Complete ignorance? Your arrogance is showing.
Salvation by grace, through faith IN CHRIST ALONE and not by works is not condemned in Scripture. What is condemned is claims to have faith but has no works. This is a dead faith that remains alone (barren of works). That's the "alone" that condemns because this is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith. Not to be confused with FAITH IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation, which is not alone in the sense that it is barren of works, because it's a living faith, not a dead faith.
I really don't care what Luther wanted to do with the book of James. I'm a disciple of Christ, not Luther and I have no problem with the book of James. Paul and James compliment each other and do not contradict each other as some may believe. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8;9: Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). In other words, it is through faith IN CHRIST alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
First you tell me to read the writings of the Church Fathers (as if they must be right about everything) and now you are saying that Augustine has some heresies attached to him.
Christ died for the ungodly, yet not all who are ungodly will believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and have their faith accounted for righteousness.
The Gospel is and has always been the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). What did I change? Is this the Gospel that you accept or do you believe that this is not the Gospel from the beginning?
Those who don't believe the Gospel are wearing blinders (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). Justification is saved from the penalty of sin which equals salvation and not simply probation.
No, it's actually Scripture. I see that you continue to "parrot off" what your predecessors before you have taught.
You are the one who is confused.
A gift must be received. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Same gift in Romans 5:15-18. Salvation by grace through faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) and that's why it is NOT OF WORKS (vs. 9).
Eternal life is not given to all men, including unbelievers. Unbelievers have not received the gift of eternal life. Unbelievers are not justified by faith. Period.
You finally said it. Which we do by FAITH. It's not automatic to all men including unbelievers.
Which is saved from the penalty of sin "have been saved through faith" = salvation, not probation.
The faithful ones are ONLY those who from beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) trust in Christ as the all sufficient means of their salvation. Saving faith continues and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root and does not continue.
An empty profession of faith that remains alone (barren of works) = hell because this is not genuine faith but a dead faith. You say have faith AND DO HIS WILL as if our works "in addition to the cross" is what saves us. What is God's will for us to receive eternal life? John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Where do you see believes in Him "and do his will" in John 6:40 as if "believes in Him" is His insufficient will for us to receive eternal life and something further must be accomplished which constitutes "do His will" also and is then added as a supplement to believes in Him? People seem to write a blank check with "do His will" and fill in whatever amount of works they desire. Christ is an all sufficient Savior. No supplements needed.
I believe that Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient to save the world from death and sin (I don't believe in limited atonement), but not everyone in the world will automatically be saved from sin and death and receive eternal life with God. There is no universal salvation.
Not all men have been alive together with Christ and have been saved by grace through faith. Grace is Christ's part and faith is our part, not any works of the law, including the moral aspect of the law, which includes all good works. Salvation is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God.
Exactly!
Saved by grace through faith, not works. And it's not saved by grace through faith "infused with works", just not specific works of the law as Catholicism teaches. It's not faith + the 7 sacraments or faith + something else. It's faith IN CHRIST ALONE.
In other words, saved through faith to you means place on probation and if you are "faithful enough" then you finally inherit eternal life. How is that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works? Those with faith from beginning to end are faithful and will inherit eternal life. Those with a shallow temporary belief that has no root and does not endure are faithless and will not inherit eternal life.
You misunderstanding is placed on probation by grace through faith (not actually saved yet) then ultimately inherit eternal life by works (being faithful enough). How much is enough in your "is of yourselves" performance based plan of salvation?
I never denied salvation by grace part. The finished work of Christ not only makes it possible for man and God to be united now and for eternity, it makes it actual through faith.
I found it. How many different ways can you interpret "justified by faith alone in Christ" and other quotes that I cited from the Church Fathers?
Says you. That's what I've heard Roman Catholics and Mormons claim as well.
Complete ignorance? Your arrogance is showing.
Salvation by grace, through faith IN CHRIST ALONE and not by works is not condemned in Scripture. What is condemned is claims to have faith but has no works. This is a dead faith that remains alone (barren of works). That's the "alone" that condemns because this is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith. Not to be confused with FAITH IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation, which is not alone in the sense that it is barren of works, because it's a living faith, not a dead faith.
I really don't care what Luther wanted to do with the book of James. I'm a disciple of Christ, not Luther and I have no problem with the book of James. Paul and James compliment each other and do not contradict each other as some may believe. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8;9: Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). In other words, it is through faith IN CHRIST alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
First you tell me to read the writings of the Church Fathers (as if they must be right about everything) and now you are saying that Augustine has some heresies attached to him.
Christ died for the ungodly, yet not all who are ungodly will believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and have their faith accounted for righteousness.
The Gospel is and has always been the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). What did I change? Is this the Gospel that you accept or do you believe that this is not the Gospel from the beginning?
M
Do you feel that the..."for all HAVE sinned" part is more a statement of fact worded as if in past tense.
That even though all have sinned, after being washed clean that the righteousness manifested in us through Christ, our actions should now follow that righteousness. (Faith with works, since Faith without is a dead faith)
Faith without works to me looks like.
I'm saved because I believe in Christ, but it's ok for me to continue to sin.
Can't even the devil do that?
All HAVE fallen short appears to put us all on an equal playing field to start from...
....As opposed to excusing us from continuing to fall short, since if we continue what we know we ought not do...
Loving the world instead of God...the love of the Father is not in us.
As if Christ would be saying
I know you HAVE sinned...but now, go and sin no more.
That even though all have sinned, after being washed clean that the righteousness manifested in us through Christ, our actions should now follow that righteousness. (Faith with works, since Faith without is a dead faith)
Faith without works to me looks like.
I'm saved because I believe in Christ, but it's ok for me to continue to sin.
Can't even the devil do that?
All HAVE fallen short appears to put us all on an equal playing field to start from...
....As opposed to excusing us from continuing to fall short, since if we continue what we know we ought not do...
Loving the world instead of God...the love of the Father is not in us.
As if Christ would be saying
I know you HAVE sinned...but now, go and sin no more.
Just because those who are justified NOW but are NOT YET glorified does not mean they will bot be glorified. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL OF THEM.
Many genuine born again believers will fall by the wayside and never inherit eternal life? Where does the Bible say that? You obviously don't know what a genuine believer is and what power keeps and preserves them.
The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief that "there is one God," as in (James 2:19), or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31). In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also believe "mental assent" that there is "one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation." Unbelievers have a hard time making a distinction between belief/faith and works. Many will erroneously say faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works. We must not confuse the root of salvation (faith in Christ) with the fruit (good works).
You need a new set of bifocals then.
Sales pitch. Your church has done a great job of thoroughly indoctrinating you.
Even the one's with heresies attached to them?
So was everyone else. You can find the Gospel in the Bible.
Right here demonstrates clearly to me that you don't know what you are talking about and I am just wasting my time beating a dead horse. I have not only heard the Gospel but I BELIEVE the Gospel, unlike you. Man is told to study to shown himself approved unto God. The Bereans searched the Scriptures and did not leave that up to a group of men in the Roman Catholic or Orthodox church to do it for them. We are not told in Scripture to have other people study it for us and then blindly follow their interpretations. I will answer some more of your statements and then I'll be just about done with your nonsense.
What else is inspired writing?
Yeah right. In your delusional world of unbelief, it's possible for you to believe just about anything.
Christ is the ONLY way. Salvation through faith, not works, is the only way to Christ. Through pride you "add works" to the gospel of Christ.
Christ is the Head of the Church, the Body of Christ, which is made up of ALL born again BELIEVERS.
STRAWMAN ARGUMENT.
That statement is the epitome of irony.
I most certainly do. That's why I don't blindly allow the Roman Catholic or Orthodox church to interpret the Bible for me.
The concept of sola scripture is absurd.[/QUOTE] Says your church and the Roman Catholic church because they want power and control, just like the Pharisees did.
You mean 2 Thessalonians 2:15. What were those traditions? Whatever your church or the Roman Catholic church says they are? No. What do these traditions teach in addition to what the Bible teaches? Until the Bible was finished being written, whatever was said orally by apostolic authority does not add or take away from Scripture.
More irony.
Your continuous strawman arguments are getting old and you can't assure me of anything. So what is this ONE GOSPEL that you claim I have never been taught? Did you pervert the Gospel as badly as the Roman Catholic church did?
Fallible writings of men throughout history can be wrong or manipulated. We have a more sure word, THE BIBLE.
The Holy Spirit led me to the Truth and I have chosen to accept it. I chose to believe the Gospel.
I know what the unchanged Gospel of Christ is and I BELIEVE the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16). The question is: What do you say this unchanged Gospel of Christ is? Or in other words, what does your church say this unchanged Gospel of Christ is and you took their word for it.
Many genuine born again believers will fall by the wayside and never inherit eternal life? Where does the Bible say that? You obviously don't know what a genuine believer is and what power keeps and preserves them.
The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief that "there is one God," as in (James 2:19), or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31). In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also believe "mental assent" that there is "one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation." Unbelievers have a hard time making a distinction between belief/faith and works. Many will erroneously say faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works. We must not confuse the root of salvation (faith in Christ) with the fruit (good works).
You need a new set of bifocals then.
Sales pitch. Your church has done a great job of thoroughly indoctrinating you.
Even the one's with heresies attached to them?
So was everyone else. You can find the Gospel in the Bible.
Right here demonstrates clearly to me that you don't know what you are talking about and I am just wasting my time beating a dead horse. I have not only heard the Gospel but I BELIEVE the Gospel, unlike you. Man is told to study to shown himself approved unto God. The Bereans searched the Scriptures and did not leave that up to a group of men in the Roman Catholic or Orthodox church to do it for them. We are not told in Scripture to have other people study it for us and then blindly follow their interpretations. I will answer some more of your statements and then I'll be just about done with your nonsense.
What else is inspired writing?
Yeah right. In your delusional world of unbelief, it's possible for you to believe just about anything.
Christ is the ONLY way. Salvation through faith, not works, is the only way to Christ. Through pride you "add works" to the gospel of Christ.
Christ is the Head of the Church, the Body of Christ, which is made up of ALL born again BELIEVERS.
STRAWMAN ARGUMENT.
That statement is the epitome of irony.
I most certainly do. That's why I don't blindly allow the Roman Catholic or Orthodox church to interpret the Bible for me.
The concept of sola scripture is absurd.[/QUOTE] Says your church and the Roman Catholic church because they want power and control, just like the Pharisees did.
You mean 2 Thessalonians 2:15. What were those traditions? Whatever your church or the Roman Catholic church says they are? No. What do these traditions teach in addition to what the Bible teaches? Until the Bible was finished being written, whatever was said orally by apostolic authority does not add or take away from Scripture.
More irony.
Your continuous strawman arguments are getting old and you can't assure me of anything. So what is this ONE GOSPEL that you claim I have never been taught? Did you pervert the Gospel as badly as the Roman Catholic church did?
Fallible writings of men throughout history can be wrong or manipulated. We have a more sure word, THE BIBLE.
The Holy Spirit led me to the Truth and I have chosen to accept it. I chose to believe the Gospel.
I know what the unchanged Gospel of Christ is and I BELIEVE the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16). The question is: What do you say this unchanged Gospel of Christ is? Or in other words, what does your church say this unchanged Gospel of Christ is and you took their word for it.
M
I agree with you there, so let's ask
why is sin rampant today?
For accepting it within ourselves,
or for not?
What did Christ save us from, sin which leads to death?
or from having to address our own sin which is transgression against God.
The bible tells us if we judged ourselves, we would not have to be judged.
How well do we then judge ourselves.
Why are our leaders corrupt?
For accepting sin??
or for confronting it to keep the church clean?
Should it be confronted, or overlooked?
How shall we then reconcile this verse:
"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
Should we keep looking to the verses we all sin. We're all born a sinner, we're not perfect etc.
Or at some point realize
1 John 3
5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins.
why is sin rampant today?
For accepting it within ourselves,
or for not?
What did Christ save us from, sin which leads to death?
or from having to address our own sin which is transgression against God.
The bible tells us if we judged ourselves, we would not have to be judged.
How well do we then judge ourselves.
Why are our leaders corrupt?
For accepting sin??
or for confronting it to keep the church clean?
Should it be confronted, or overlooked?
How shall we then reconcile this verse:
"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
Should we keep looking to the verses we all sin. We're all born a sinner, we're not perfect etc.
Or at some point realize
1 John 3
5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins.