Connecting the Dots . . .

[doulos]

As I said before. God did not blind the jews, they blinded themselves in unbelief!

God did not blind them, they blinded themselves,

Nothing personal friend but I think I’ll believe what Scripture says over the fallacy (I.E. Lie) you are trying to promote. Is the following verse in error or is EG in error?
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear: ) unto this day.

Fulness of the Gentiles = all the Gentiles whore are going to be saved have come to the Lord.

wrong. It means the time the gentiles were given to trample jerusalem and Isreal.. ie daniels gentile kingdoms.

Now time and fullness means the same thing? Since when?
Fulness as used in Rom11:25
Fullness G4138 πλήρωμα plērōma
play'-ro-mah
From G4137; repletion or completion, that is, (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period): - which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness.

Times as used inm times of the Gentiles from Luke21:24
times G2540 καιρός kairos
kahee-ros'
Of uncertain affinity; an occasion, that is, set or proper time: - X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare G5550.

 

[doulos]

The Old Covenant is done finished.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
That which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish but has not vanished yet. For God to be true to His Word that it is an everlasting covenant requires that He keep some under that covenant to this day.

The only thing i may have had any real issue with is salvation
through the Old Covenant especially since noone can without a temple and sacrifices.

A temple and sacrifices did not save the Old Testament saints. They were saved by drinking from the same Rock you and I drink from and that Rock is Christ.
1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;And did all eat the same spiritual meat;And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Regardless oof whether one is born before or after the crucifixion it has always been about being born again.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Even before the crucifixion Christ expected Old Testament saints to understand this.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again
For more Scripture showing that even precrucifixion salvation was a matter of faith see Gen15:6, Hab2:4, Psa51:16-17 and Mic6:8.

The "times of the gentiles" being the time that unbelieving gentiles would have dominion over the "Israel of God"

The time of the Gentiles is the time when Gentiles control or trample Jerusalem. It is a historical fact the Gentiles ceased to control Jerusalem in 1967 as a result of the 6 day war, so the time of the Gentiles came to an end in June 1967.
Luk 21:24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

[doulos]

Some may disagree, that a Jew who has been given a spirit of slumber until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in can come to know Christ and be born again just as Abraham, Moses and other Old Testament saints were. But to say that the view espoused says Jews don’t need Jesus or that it is offering another method of salvation is fallacy. Regardless of whether one promotes a fallacy intentionally or unintentionally does not change the fact it is fallacy.(in effect a lie). The view being espoused by Therapon does not promote another method of salvation but instead is attempting to demonstrate that God reveals Himself to different people in different circumstances and times in different ways. Old Testament saints like Abraham and Moses did not see the first advent of Christ and the gospel yet by placing their faith in the coming Messiah (Christ) they were born again. Aren’t New Testament saints born again by placing their faith and coming to know Christ? What’s the difference both come to know Christ and are born again as a result of their faith in Christ? It is not a matter of not needing Jesus or another method of salvation (as some people are falsely saying) but instead a matter of how God chooses to reveal Himself to the sovereignly blinded Jew until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and whether or not the Jew given a spirit of slumber can still come to know Christ and be born again through the Old Testament like Abraham Moses and the other Old Testament saints.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

For the above verse to be true, then for anyone to be saved from Adam until the Lord returns must be born again by coming to know Christ and being washed clean by His shed blood for the remission of our sins. Regardless of whether or not one was an Old Testament saint like Moses who lived long before the crucifixion and resurrection (in our eyes, but in God’s the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world) or whether one lives in 2013 long after the crucifixion one must be born again to see the kingdom of God. The belief that both Old and New Testament saintsare born again through Christ is confirmed by Scripture.
1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;And did all eat the same spiritual meat;And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Old Testament saint or New Testament saint the method is the same, no one was saved by the law, but instead by coming to know Christ. It has always been about coming to know Christ (drinking from the Rock) and being born again!

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Rom 2:28 -29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Old Testament saint or New Testament saint makes no difference those who come (or came) to know Christ have a circumcised or new heart and are filled with the Holy Spirit. The method of salvation has never changed. What has changed is how God chose to reveal Himself to us depending on who we are and what age we live in. To the Old Testament saint Christ was revealed as the coming Messiah. To the New Testament saint Christ was revealed through His life on earth where He was crucified and resurrected for the remission of our sins. So how does God reveal Himself to the Jew that has been sovereignly blinded to the first advent of Christ and the gospel? How does God reveal Himself to the enemy of the gospel that is elect?


So let’s set this straw argument which is a fallacy about Therapon saying Jews don’t need Jesus or is offering another method of salvation aside and get down to the real issues. So for those who disagree with the view Therapon espouses I have a few questions and hopefully you will actually address the issue with a Scripturally sound explanation instead of an unprovable doctrinally based explanation that cherry picks Scripture in an effort to condemn the Jews. Remember Scripture will not contradict Scripture it is our interpretations that make it appear that way. For our doctrines and beliefs to be correct we must make scripture reconcile Scripture instead of making Scripture contradict Scripture.

Did the fullness of the gentiles come in during the first century or is it ongoing until the last gentile to be born again comes to the Lord?

If the fullness of the gentiles has not come in and there are SOME (not all) Jews still sovereignly blinded to the first advent of Christ and the gospel can they be held accountable for not recognizing the first advent of Christ and the gospel in light of Roman4:15?

If they are still sovereignly blinded and are not held accountable for recognizing the first advent of Christ and the gospel in light of Roman4:15 can they if they are provoked to jealousy return to the only Scriptures (Old Testament) they are allowed to see then come to know Christ and be born again by placing their faith in the Messiah (Christ) just as Abraham and Moses were?

Now before one starts trying to answer those questions in a manner designed to prove that the fullness of the gentiles came in during the first century therefore the spirit of slumber has been lifted and Rom 4:15 does not apply so all Jews must recognize the gospel or be condemned ask your self these questions. Wouldn’t that be proving that the Old Covenant which God said is an everlasting covenant died in the first century? While from our perspective we have a New and better covenant we must not forget that while the Old covenant “which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away” it has not vanished yet! It can’t or God would not be true to His word that it was an everlasting covenant.

 

[peterT]

We're not talking about those in the wilderness, we are talking about those who have been spiritually blinded to not recognize the gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you believe they are in transgression because they have been given the spirit of slumber? Doesn't scripture tell us, for where no law is, there is no transgression? Romans 4:15

1Christianwarrior316

Yes we are talking about those in the wilderness, because we look back in the Bible and see how God operated in the past and who was killed for not believe and obeying the words of Moses.

And as they are today (the Jews), they believe not and obeying not the words of Moses still.

According to you we can’t take Jesus at his word.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


And we can’t take john at his word ether.


2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

And if we can’t take them at their word, then we can’t take them at their word.

You are rewrite scripture Like this

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (EXCEPT FRO THE JEWS)

1 John 4:3 And (NOT) every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son (EXCEPT FOR THE JEWS).

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins(EXCEPT FOR THE JEWS).

You doctrine goes agents all the thing Jesus said, and did, and came to do

 

[Abiding]

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
That which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish but has not vanished yet. For God to be true to His Word that it is an everlasting covenant requires that He keep some under that covenant to this day.

A temple and sacrifices did not save the Old Testament saints. They were saved by drinking from the same Rock you and I drink from and that Rock is Christ.
1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;And did all eat the same spiritual meat;And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Regardless oof whether one is born before or after the crucifixion it has always been about being born again.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Even before the crucifixion Christ expected Old Testament saints to understand this.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again
For more Scripture showing that even precrucifixion salvation was a matter of faith see Gen15:6, Hab2:4, Psa51:16-17 and Mic6:8.




The time of the Gentiles is the time when Gentiles control or trample Jerusalem. It is a historical fact the Gentiles ceased to control Jerusalem in 1967 as a result of the 6 day war, so the time of the Gentiles came to an end in June 1967.
Luk 21:24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

What do you think the New Covenant is? temporal? come on the Old ran into the New. Theres not 2.
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Jesus confirmed, completed, all done confirmed confirmed confirmed completed! it is finished!
Memo: Old Covenant needed stuff

you provided:Hebrews 8:13


[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (not linger in limbo to be changed per personal private interpretation)

But the context keeps going without chapter and verses
Hebrews 9:1-7


The Earthly Sanctuary

9 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; [SUP]3 [/SUP]and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, [SUP]4 [/SUP]which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in whichwere the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; [SUP]5 [/SUP]and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

So it was final in 70ad. I think you need to rethink things. without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

Reread the end of Matt 23 for your eschatology of some rebirth of Israel
then read requirements of coming back to the land after a diaspora in the OT.

 

[Abiding]

wow i got some catching to do with GRA and EG dern youngsters.

 

[zone]

[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete.

no no.
the first one isn't really obsolete. ignore what the text says.

the Obsolete Covenant is still good for the Faithful Old Testament Wine Skins who got to keep the obsolete because they'da perished if Jesus poured New Wine into them.

the New Wine is for the Gentile Church.

whatever that is.