Could someone who claims to believe John 6:53 is literal...

[Pilgrimshope]

I'm sure it has something to do with the promise of the Holy Spirit, but I'm attempting to grasp the relevance of His saying that He would not drink again until He drinks it with us in the kingdom. If He's speaking of the cup of 'His blood poured out for us,' then i understand why He'd say he wouldn't drink it again, but that He adds 'until I drink it with you in My Father's kingdom,' causes me to wonder.

“But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:36‬ ‭

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men….

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

….Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10, 13‬ ‭

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The kingdom in heaven will come to a renewed earth and then he will again walk among us in the body of Christ Jesus our Lord

 

[PaulThomson]

partaking of the bread and wine in communion and communion in the partaking of the flesh and blood, I can't see the conflation.

Do you have any notion as to why Jesus could not remain with us so that the Holy Spirit could come?

There is a second thread to your question that I should also present for your consideration.

When Jesus says it is good for us that he goes away, he is referring in context to going away "for a little while" during which they will mourn, and returning by implication "soon".

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Jhn 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know...
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So Jesus is going to the Father to prepare a place for His disciples.

Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Jhn 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Jhn 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Jesus is talking about going away to crucifixion and death and Hades on His way to ascending to the Father's side after His resurrection. This is indeed "a little while" until the disciples see Him again on Resurrection Sunday and they will rejoice, but when the world will no longer see the physical Jesus after His body is buried.

Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and I will manifest (emphanisO) myself to/for/by means of him (autOi).

I like "I will manifest Myself by means of him." Although a triple entendre could be intentional.

Jesus had said in Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profiteth nothing (my flesh, my physical visible tangible body and word do not make alive) : the words (ta rhEmata: the spoken words) that I speak to you ( lalO: present continuous in the Greek: the words I am speaking to you, not the written record of my words, logos), they are spirit, and they are life.

Jhn 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words (he will hear my written words as spoken to him personally and will embody them, like as he embodies food he eats) : and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him (our spirits will take up residence in him and he will be quickened and live by Us in him.).

Jhn 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jhn 16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
Jhn 16:6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away (to the Father via death on a cross and a short imprisonment in Hades): for if I go not away (if I don't die and rise again to the Father), the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, (if I die and rise again to the Father) I will send Him to you.

All this is to say that another thing Jesus meant by "it is expedient for you that I go away", was that they were about to be violently parted from Jesus for a few days and this would ordinarily throw them into depression, but Jesus is saying that his short term arrest and scourging and crucifixion and death and burial would allow Him to make a way for them to be permanently united with Him in the spiritual realm after He had presented Himself to the Father, had been accepted as the perfect sinless sacrifice and had been given back the original glory He had surrendered to incarnate as a human.

 

[SirSolaScriptura]

This is where the doctrine of Transubstantiation comes from, that the Bread and Wine become Christ's Literal Body and Blood at The Eucharist or Communion.

Martin Luther believed in Transub, and took that passage literally. However, Zwingli and others did not and took the symbolism approach.

My way of understanding it is:

John 6:53 is Jesus dissuading the crowds that just want regular miraculous loaves of bread (see whole chapter), and He is setting up the Mystery that will be revealed in Luke Chapter 22 when He breaks the bread and says, "this is my body broken for you," and took the cup and said, "This is my blood of the New Covenant shed for the remission of Sins, do this in remembrance of me."

Then Jesus literally fulfills this by having his Body broken and his Blood poured out four our sins in John Chapter 19.

 

[Magenta]

John Six Bread of Life ~ The bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world. John 6 verse 33 “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst. John 6 verse 35 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.” John 6 verses 50-51 Jesus took bread, spoke a blessing and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is My body.” Matthew 26 verse 26 Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. from John 6 verse 53

 

[PaulThomson]

This is where the doctrine of Transubstantiation comes from, that the Bread and Wine become Christ's Literal Body and Blood at The Eucharist or Communion.

Martin Luther believed in Transub, and took that passage literally. However, Zwingli and others did not and took the symbolism approach.

My way of understanding it is:

John 6:53 is Jesus dissuading the crowds that just want regular miraculous loaves of bread (see whole chapter), and He is setting up the Mystery that will be revealed in Luke Chapter 22 when He breaks the bread and says, "this is my body broken for you," and took the cup and said, "This is my blood of the New Covenant shed for the remission of Sins, do this in remembrance of me."

Then Jesus literally fulfills this by having his Body broken and his Blood poured out four our sins in John Chapter 19.

So, it sounds like you believe Jesus was saying you cannot have any life in you until you eat both communion bread and drink communion wine. That leaves all Catholic laity until fairly recently without life. That also makes regeneration dependent on taking communion bread and wine.

 

[Mem]

There is a second thread to your question that I should also present for your consideration.

When Jesus says it is good for us that he goes away, he is referring in context to going away "for a little while" during which they will mourn, and returning by implication "soon".

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Jhn 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know...
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So Jesus is going to the Father to prepare a place for His disciples.

Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Jhn 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Jhn 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Jesus is talking about going away to crucifixion and death and Hades on His way to ascending to the Father's side after His resurrection. This is indeed "a little while" until the disciples see Him again on Resurrection Sunday and they will rejoice, but when the world will no longer see the physical Jesus after His body is buried.

Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and I will manifest (emphanisO) myself to/for/by means of him (autOi).

I like "I will manifest Myself by means of him." Although a triple entendre could be intentional.

Jesus had said in Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profiteth nothing (my flesh, my physical visible tangible body and word do not make alive) : the words (ta rhEmata: the spoken words) that I speak to you ( lalO: present continuous in the Greek: the words I am speaking to you, not the written record of my words, logos), they are spirit, and they are life.

Jhn 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words (he will hear my written words as spoken to him personally and will embody them, like as he embodies food he eats) : and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him (our spirits will take up residence in him and he will be quickened and live by Us in him.).

Jhn 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jhn 16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
Jhn 16:6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away (to the Father via death on a cross and a short imprisonment in Hades): for if I go not away (if I don't die and rise again to the Father), the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, (if I die and rise again to the Father) I will send Him to you.

All this is to say that another thing Jesus meant by "it is expedient for you that I go away", was that they were about to be violently parted from Jesus for a few days and this would ordinarily throw them into depression, but Jesus is saying that his short term arrest and scourging and crucifixion and death and burial would allow Him to make a way for them to be permanently united with Him in the spiritual realm after He had presented Himself to the Father, had been accepted as the perfect sinless sacrifice and had been given back the original glory He had surrendered to incarnate as a human.

That much I understand and do appreciate your explanation of it in such detail. However, I was wondering in terms of His promise of 'another Helper' in relation to His ascension and subsequent return. I vaguely recall a suggestion that His death, burial, and resurrection initiated a sort of 'changing of the guard' so to speak or rather a changing of the (access shall we say?) of the Holy Spirit. Although, I don't remember exactly who posited that and probably should have tagged the post right away.
In any event, the things that I search out very rarely comes fully and hardly immediately. But I account that to my handicap of drawing things from the realm of the spirit into the realm of the natural, but that is the very nature of writing.

 

[SirSolaScriptura]

So, it sounds like you believe Jesus was saying you cannot have any life in you until you eat both communion bread and drink communion wine. That leaves all Catholic laity until fairly recently without life. That also makes regeneration dependent on taking communion bread and wine.

How did you get that from my points? I said Luther and Catholics believe in Transubstantiation, I do not, I believe its a remembrance and symbolic.

I believe through faith in Jesus we partake because He was broken for us and His Blood of New Covenant now covers us from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9-11).

That has the Apostle Paul says, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." (Romans 6:4).

I will restate: John 6:53 was Jesus getting rid of people who wanted free bread with his extreme statement of eating Him, then he clarifies at the Last Supper by instituting The Communion (Jesus often clarified hard sayings like his parables with just The Twelve Disciples), and actually accomplishes what He is talking about in Communion at The Cross.

The Communion or Eucharist is a remembrance of His Death until He Comes Again,
"For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." (1 Corinthians 11:26).

 

[PaulThomson]

How did you get that from my points? I said Luther and Catholics believe in Transubstantiation, I do not, I believe its a remembrance and symbolic.

I believe through faith in Jesus we partake because He was broken for us and His Blood of New Covenant now covers us from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9-11).

That has the Apostle Paul says, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." (Romans 6:4).

I will restate: John 6:53 was Jesus getting rid of people who wanted free bread with his extreme statement of eating Him, then he clarifies at the Last Supper by instituting The Communion (Jesus often clarified hard sayings like his parables with just The Twelve Disciples), and actually accomplishes what He is talking about in Communion at The Cross.

The Communion or Eucharist is a remembrance of His Death until He Comes Again,
"For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." (1 Corinthians 11:26).

You posted -
My way of understanding [John 6:53] is:

John 6:53 is Jesus dissuading the crowds that just want regular miraculous loaves of bread (see whole chapter), and He is setting up the Mystery that will be revealed in Luke Chapter 22 when He breaks the bread and says, "this is my body broken for you," and took the cup and said, "This is my blood of the New Covenant shed for the remission of Sins, do this in remembrance of me."

Then Jesus literally fulfills this by having his Body broken and his Blood poured out four our sins in John Chapter 19."

You said, that the flesh Jesus is referring to in John 6:53 is the Bread of Luke 22 "

Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

If we put "the Communion Bread" into John 6:53 for "the flesh of the Son of Man", and "communion Bread" for "His blood", this is what we get this -

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the the communion Bread, and drink the communion wine, ye have no life in you.

How can one possibly read that and not conclude that taking Communion bread and wine is not just something one may do, one ought to remember Jesus; but that taking the communion bread and wine is something one must do after believing in Jesus, in order to have any life at all.

Insisting that Jesus' flesh is the communion bread, abd His blood is the communion wine, makes taking communion bread and wine a necessary step to receiving any life whatsoever. The notion that "Jesus flesh and blood" in John 5:53 are references to the communion bread and wine of Luke 22, is not necessary in order to make sense of the text; and doing so makes Jesus insist that laking communion is a prerequisite for salvation.

 

[PaulThomson]

That much I understand and do appreciate your explanation of it in such detail. However, I was wondering in terms of His promise of 'another Helper' in relation to His ascension and subsequent return. I vaguely recall a suggestion that His death, burial, and resurrection initiated a sort of 'changing of the guard' so to speak or rather a changing of the (access shall we say?) of the Holy Spirit. Although, I don't remember exactly who posited that and probably should have tagged the post right away.
In any event, the things that I search out very rarely comes fully and hardly immediately. But I account that to my handicap of drawing things from the realm of the spirit into the realm of the natural, but that is the very nature of writing.

I believe our Lord's first ascension to the Father and His subsequent return to earth happened on Resurrection Sunday morning. He appeared to Mary Magdalene and told her not to cling to Him because he had not yet ascended to His Father and told her to tell them He was ascending to His Father and their Father. (John 20). Soon after that, He appeared to the women on their way to the disciples, Greeted them and they grabbed His feet and worshipped Him (Mark 16, from memory). No objection from Jesus then, about clinging to Him.

I believe Jesus had ascended to the Father between those two meetings and had presented Himself to the Father as the heavenly fulfilment of the wave-offering of the first sheaf that was offered on the feast of firstfruits, which that Sunday was. I believe Zechariah saw a premonition of this return of Jesus into heaven and recorded it in Zec. 3. According to John 20, when Jesus appeared to His disciples on that Sunday evening, he breathed on them and said, "Receive ye the Holy Spirit." They received the Holy Spirit in them at that time as a well bubbling up to aeonous life. The Holy Spirit worked in them over the next 50 days to help them understand the scriptures about Jesus and their mission, and to help them forgive one another and come into harmony with God and one another. By Pentecost, they had become in one accord, and were ready to receive the manifest power of the Holy Spirit, who began manifesting in them as rivers of living water flowing out of them, to make them effective witnesses to Jesus' resurrection and glorification as Ruler and Judge over God's people. (Acts 2)

 

[GWH]

That does not explain John 6:53 while actually taking every word literally? You have not even used the words of John 6:53.

I assume this discussion will cite/include John 16:25-29 at some point?

 

[PaulThomson]

I assume this discussion will cite/include John 16:25-29 at some point?

I am waiting with anticipation for you to do do.

 

[Mem]

I believe our Lord's first ascension to the Father and His subsequent return to earth happened on Resurrection Sunday morning. He appeared to Mary Magdalene and told her not to cling to Him because he had not yet ascended to His Father and told her to tell them He was ascending to His Father and their Father. (John 20). Soon after that, He appeared to the women on their way to the disciples, Greeted them and they grabbed His feet and worshipped Him (Mark 16, from memory). No objection from Jesus then, about clinging to Him.

I believe Jesus had ascended to the Father between those two meetings and had presented Himself to the Father as the heavenly fulfilment of the wave-offering of the first sheaf that was offered on the feast of firstfruits, which that Sunday was. I believe Zechariah saw a premonition of this return of Jesus into heaven and recorded it in Zec. 3. According to John 20, when Jesus appeared to His disciples on that Sunday evening, he breathed on them and said, "Receive ye the Holy Spirit." They received the Holy Spirit in them at that time as a well bubbling up to aeonous life. The Holy Spirit worked in them over the next 50 days to help them understand the scriptures about Jesus and their mission, and to help them forgive one another and come into harmony with God and one another. By Pentecost, they had become in one accord, and were ready to receive the manifest power of the Holy Spirit, who began manifesting in them as rivers of living water flowing out of them, to make them effective witnesses to Jesus' resurrection and glorification as Ruler and Judge over God's people. (Acts 2)

I assume this discussion will cite/include John 16:25-29 at some point?

I've come to a realization that the answer I'm searching out must have something to do with love. Jesus 'left' us but not without it. And it is enough. It is perfectly adequate to keep us while He is 'away.' And I suppose the 'expedient need' for that is that, love and faith are inseparable, and neither can be 'bought.' We can't buy God's love anymore than God would 'buy' our faith. However, without these, together, there's no hope.

 

[GWH]

I am waiting with anticipation for you to do do.

Freudian slip?

 

[armchairscholar]

Western thinking tends to promote agency while royal or kingdom thinking promotes representation. Royal/kingdom thinking is higher-level thinking.

We know, functionally, the bread and the wine are not the flesh and blood of Jesus or any man for that matter.

But Jesus was speaking from a royal position. In such a position, a thing represents what He says it represents.

Now, a certain thing doesn't have to function like the thing it represents (like a lamb can never be a man). So Jesus wasn't talking about the agency of the thing. He was talking about what a certain thing was in representation.

So later we read this from the same Jesus who spoke in John 6:

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”

27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

So it's quite clear that the bread and the wine were not functionally like the body and blood of Jesus YET Jesus said about the bread "this is my body" and about the wine "this is my blood".

Does Jesus have the authority to say that the bread and blood represent something other than bread and blood?

If you believe His words here:

"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

Then you would have to conclude that He can has the authority to say that the bread and wine represent whatever He wishes they represent. This is royal thinking.

The bonus for us is: we are allowed to participate in this higher-level thinking. So, when we eat the bread and drink the wine and agree with Him that they are in fact his flesh and His blood (while not functionally so) we fulfill the requirements of His word spoken in John 6:

"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you have no life in you."

The benefits of this, like all things of eternal substance, are only obtained by faith. That is another thread.

I love how you broke this down. You’re so right about the difference between our usual way of thinking and this “royal thinking” Jesus uses. It’s like He’s inviting us to see things on a deeper level, where bread and wine aren’t just food but a powerful picture of His sacrifice. The way you tied it to His authority really makes it clear—Jesus can say what these things represent because He’s the King!

I also appreciate how you pointed out that we get to join in this by faith. It’s not about the bread and wine literally being His body and blood, but about trusting what He says they mean. That’s such a cool way to connect with Him during communion. It makes me think about how much faith shapes the way we see God’s truth.