Culture

[jettrooper]

Can someone help me make sense of this? I have a Logical argument that I need analyzed for any flaws. It seems to me that the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles constitute a foundation that would create a culture distinctly different from that of the world. Many Christians today attempt to interpret scripture in light of the culture they currently live in but scriptures talk of not being of the world. Please share what you think, here is the argument:

Logical argument - Culture

1. Culture is a system of ethical values derived from at least Social Structures, Customs and Traditions, Communications, Economics, and Forms of Government.
2. The Bible teaches Social Structures, Customs and Traditions, Communications, Economics and Forms of Government.
3. Therefore the Bible teaches culture

 

[Guest]

Hi jettrooper,

There are several definitions for the word 'culture.' Where did you derive your definition from?

 

[AuphirahQueen]

Great question that had me pondering for an answer!!! The Great Sanhedrin hated JESUS including his disciples and Romans hate the Hebrews( Jews) because Hebrews(Jews) were always rebelling against Romans authority. The Body of Christ does not belong to this culture of man(wicked).

[h=1]John 18 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h]36 “My kingdom is not of this world,” said Jesus. “If My kingdom were of this world, My servants[e] would fight, so that I wouldn’t be handed over to the Jews. As it is, My kingdom does not have its origin here.”[f]
37 “You are a king then?” Pilate asked.
“You say that I’m a king,” Jesus replied. “I was born for this, and I have come into the world for this: to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to My voice.


[h=1]John 17 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Jesus Prays for His Disciples[/h]6 I have revealed Your name
to the men You gave Me from the world.
They were Yours, You gave them to Me,
and they have kept Your word.
7 Now they know that all things
You have given to Me are from You,
8 because the words that You gave Me,
I have given them.
They have received them
and have known for certain
that I came from You.
They have believed that You sent Me.
9 I pray[b] for them.
I am not praying for the world
but for those You have given Me,
because they are Yours.
10 Everything I have is Yours,
and everything You have is Mine,
and I have been glorified in them.
11 I am no longer in the world,
but they are in the world,
and I am coming to You.
Holy Father,
protect[c] them by Your name
that You have given Me,
so that they may be one as We are one.
12 While I was with them,
I was protecting them by Your name
that You have given Me.
I guarded them and not one of them is lost,
except the son of destruction,[d]
so that the Scripture may be fulfilled.
13 Now I am coming to You,
and I speak these things in the world
so that they may have My joy completed in them.
14 I have given them Your word.
The world hated them
because they are not of the world,
as I am not of the world.
15 I am not praying
that You take them out of the world
but that You protect them from the evil one.
16 They are not of the world,
as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify[e] them by the truth;
Your word is truth.
18 As You sent Me into the world,
I also have sent them into the world.
19 I sanctify Myself for them,
so they also may be sanctified by the truth.

 

[Enga]

Dear jettrooper,
you have said that Many Christians today attempt to interpret scripture in light of the culture they currently live in but scriptures talk of not being of the world.

can you give some example on how the christians interpret in light of the culture they currently live in.

 

[Saint-John]

God has his own ways, culture and man conforms to it or he is not in the picture (Christianity)...many like to take bits and pieces and claim they are for Jesus Christ..ie john 3 v 16..many claimed to be Gods people in Jesus time and he showed them what happens when you get it right with God..........

same today Jesus told his followers how to identify true believers..

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


you cant get these unless you do it Gods way..not just bits and pieces of scripture..

 

[Enga]

God has his own ways, culture and man conforms to it or he is not in the picture (Christianity)...many like to take bits and pieces and claim they are for Jesus Christ..ie john 3 v 16..many claimed to be Gods people in Jesus time and he showed them what happens when you get it right with God..........

same today Jesus told his followers how to identify true believers..

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


you cant get these unless you do it Gods way..not just bits and pieces of scripture..

1. What baptism are you referring to?
2. Whoever believe and baptised shall be saved? What does that mean?
3. What power will they use to cast devils and perform all kind of miracles? Even if we do that we will still not enter God’s kingdom. “Matthew 7:21, [SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God’s kingdom. The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants. [SUP]22 [/SUP]On that last Day many will call me Lord. They will say, ‘Lord, Lord, by the power of your name we spoke for God. And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]Then I will tell those people clearly, ‘Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.’”

1. So who’s power are we going to use to do all this things?

We will do everything in God’s name but God will say I do not know you.
We have to follow what is in the bible.

 

[Enga]

you believe and baptized but what kind of baptized is the bible referring to?
1. there are water baptism and Holy Sirit batpise,
2. water baptism just show us that we have chance our heart and lives. And water baptism does not make us worthy.
3. The Holy Spirit and fire baptism is still unknown. Even today know one in the word knows it.

 

[jettrooper]

Hi jettrooper,

There are several definitions for the word 'culture.' Where did you derive your definition from?

That is a very good question and basically the answer is from multiple sources. There is no formal consensus among anthropologist on the definition. However two sources I am citing in my personal study are:
[1] Hiebert, Paul G., Anthropological Insights for Missionaries. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker.,1985, pg 30
[2] David Matsumoto, Linda Juang, Culture and Psychology, Cengage Learning 2012, pg 102

The idea is to try to assimilate the best information available the make determinations from that.

 

[jettrooper]

Great question that had me pondering for an answer!!! The Great Sanhedrin hated JESUS including his disciples and Romans hate the Hebrews( Jews) because Hebrews(Jews) were always rebelling against Romans authority. The Body of Christ does not belong to this culture of man(wicked).

John 18 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

36 “My kingdom is not of this world,” said Jesus. “If My kingdom were of this world, My servants[e] would fight, so that I wouldn’t be handed over to the Jews. As it is, My kingdom does not have its origin here.”[f]
37 “You are a king then?” Pilate asked.
“You say that I’m a king,” Jesus replied. “I was born for this, and I have come into the world for this: to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to My voice.


John 17 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6 I have revealed Your name
to the men You gave Me from the world.
They were Yours, You gave them to Me,
and they have kept Your word.
7 Now they know that all things
You have given to Me are from You,
8 because the words that You gave Me,
I have given them.
They have received them
and have known for certain
that I came from You.
They have believed that You sent Me.
9 I pray[b] for them.
I am not praying for the world
but for those You have given Me,
because they are Yours.
10 Everything I have is Yours,
and everything You have is Mine,
and I have been glorified in them.
11 I am no longer in the world,
but they are in the world,
and I am coming to You.
Holy Father,
protect[c] them by Your name
that You have given Me,
so that they may be one as We are one.
12 While I was with them,
I was protecting them by Your name
that You have given Me.
I guarded them and not one of them is lost,
except the son of destruction,[d]
so that the Scripture may be fulfilled.
13 Now I am coming to You,
and I speak these things in the world
so that they may have My joy completed in them.
14 I have given them Your word.
The world hated them
because they are not of the world,
as I am not of the world.
15 I am not praying
that You take them out of the world
but that You protect them from the evil one.
16 They are not of the world,
as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify[e] them by the truth;
Your word is truth.
18 As You sent Me into the world,
I also have sent them into the world.
19 I sanctify Myself for them,
so they also may be sanctified by the truth.

Thank you. I am in agreement with you.

 

[jettrooper]

Dear jettrooper,
you have said that Many Christians today attempt to interpret scripture in light of the culture they currently live in but scriptures talk of not being of the world.

can you give some example on how the christians interpret in light of the culture they currently live in.

Many examples are difficult to see simply because our culture blinds us from seeing it. In my personal study, of which this post is only a portion of, I refer to some issues that are both controversial and completely ignored in main stream churches today. Consider fasting for one. I can honestly say in my years of life (43) I have never heard a sermon on fasting. Fasting is instructed in scripture and was done at least twice a week in the first century church. Our culture does not value it therefore the church ignores it. Others are celibacy, marriage, Lord's Supper, and church leadership. There is one more that is extremely controversial but I will decline to mention it here because I simply want to examine the logic. If the logic is sound then the controversy is irrelevant I must make changes to comply with scripture. Make sense?

 

[jettrooper]

you believe and baptized but what kind of baptized is the bible referring to?
1. there are water baptism and Holy Sirit batpise,
2. water baptism just show us that we have chance our heart and lives. And water baptism does not make us worthy.
3. The Holy Spirit and fire baptism is still unknown. Even today know one in the word knows it.

I agree. Baptism can definitely fall prey to the cultural blinders. But also has repentance and the definition of repentance in our culture. Repentance has lost the Lordship meaning behind it. Repentance is a change of Lordship as well as a change in lifestyle.

 

[Guest]

That is a very good question and basically the answer is from multiple sources. There is no formal consensus among anthropologist on the definition. However two sources I am citing in my personal study are:
[1] Hiebert, Paul G., Anthropological Insights for Missionaries. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker.,1985, pg 30
[2] David Matsumoto, Linda Juang, Culture and Psychology, Cengage Learning 2012, pg 102

The idea is to try to assimilate the best information available the make determinations from that.

I see. Thank you for the reply!

Scripture does appear to present a foundation for culture, particularly in the Old Testament. Do you think we should base our model on the culture of the times depicted in either the Old Testament or the New Testament? Or, rather, do you think culture is static, or a dynamic thing?

 

[jettrooper]

I see. Thank you for the reply!

Scripture does appear to present a foundation for culture, particularly in the Old Testament. Do you think we should base our model on the culture of the times depicted in either the Old Testament or the New Testament? Or, rather, do you think culture is static, or a dynamic thing?

Excellent Question!

I will first give an analogy. An atheist will often times say something like. If God created everything, and evil exists, then God created evil and therefore God is evil. Well, in this argument there is a logical fallacy (the fallacy of necessity and possibility). The Atheist's argument necessitates that evil must happen and that it cannot not happen in the world or rather that evil is not only just a possibility. God created a world in the right state "good", but corruption changed it.


Similarly we falsely believe that Culture must change in the world. We necessitate that change must happen for the sake of progress. However God's directives, laws and obligations would, I think, create a static culture that would only be corrupted by people with misinterpretations of God's Word. This is true in the world now, just look at today's fashion line. The grocery checkout line is more like a soft porn view show. I once witnessed a woman wear a see-through dress in church (I mean see through lace), and she thought it was ok, ie modest. One of our "Praise" singers once wore a miniskirt. Clearly this is not the Modesty that God intended and this kind of change really scares people so they use psychological defense mechanisms such as denial and rescuing devices to justify that position.

Now do not confuse certain elements of life with culture. One person accused my reasoning once saying that would mean I need to wear a robe everyday instead of pants. Well, the scriptures do not forbid pants, and since Christ fulfilled the role of the Levite priests, even that means that a robe is not necessary.

I think both the OLD and NEW testament should be used but based on the commands and proper inference from the historical content as well. However, I am still thinking this whole thing though and would love a good reason for the contrary if one exists. It certainly would make me more popular

 

[Enga]

Dear fiend, in the past only few people see and talk to God.People like Moses and Abram.

And then came the time of Jesus but only few people see Him.
Jesus sends holy spirit in his name but not many people receiveit. Only the disciple receives it and the disciple prayed over people and theyreceive the Holy Spirit.

But the Disciples died and the work or distribution of Holy Spiritceased with the disciple because there was no one to continue on with the work.Only the Good new spread to the world.

You have to find wereHoly Spirit is then you will see the what you asked.

Bibles says that God will be with someone and people willlook of God.

Dear friend. Please ask me if you have some more questions.

Acts 21:11
, Coming over to us, he took Paul’s belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, “The Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.’”
This should be a question that we should ask, what will the Jewish leader will tie and hand it over to the gentiles. Who is the owner of the belt?
Paul is the owner of the belt and that may mean that the Jews in Jerusalem will kill Paul and the other disciples. When they kill and destroy all of them then No one will do the distribution of Holy Spirit just like the Disciples did.
Holy Spirit itself says that, in this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.’”
What were Paul and the other disciple doing? Actually, Paul was distributing the spirit of God to the people. Pauls was doing the work because he himself got the spirit of God and he Distribute them including the other disciples.
However, God was with the Israel people and also, Jesus come down and did his work in Israel. And then, what is it that will be handed over to the gentiles?
Holy Spirit itself said all this things right after the death of Jesus Christ and also after the day of Pentecost
God was with the Israel and He gave Jesus to them to unite all of use and then Jesus went up to God and asks God to send Holy Spirit in his name and Holy Spirit came down first in Israel.
However, most of them did not believe in Jesus and what was given by God was rejected. Therefore, they reject Jesus even after death and they reject Holy Spirit as well by killing the ones that distribute Holy Spirit especially the Apostles. Just because they already know God. They think that all the things Jesus did and also the disciples did was not true.
It confirmed it here,
Acts 13:46,[SUP]46 [/SUP]Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 63:10, Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.
But the question is where Holy Spirit is now? And where is the Work of the Holy Spirit Now? It’s in God’s hands. We need to find it because with the baptism of Holy Spirit we cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Acts 8:16-19, [SUP]14 [/SUP]the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted the word of God. So they sent Peter and John to the people in Samaria. [SUP]15 [/SUP]When Peter and John arrived, they prayed for the Samaritan believers to receive the Holy Spirit. [SUP]16 [/SUP]These people had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, but the Holy Spirit had not yet come down on any of them. This is why Peter and John prayed. [SUP]17 [/SUP]When the two apostles laid their hands on the people, they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19:1-4, While Apostles was at Corinth; Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples [SUP]2 [/SUP]and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
[SUP]3 [/SUP]So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The bible says that in line 14, “people of Samaria accepted the word of God” just like you and me when we accepted the word of Christ in the beginning when we first become Christians.
And they “baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but the Holy Spirit had not yet come down on any of the”
And then it says that “they send Peter and John”- Why do they have to send peter and John?
“Peter and john prayed for the Samaritan believer”- they accepted word Jesus Christ and they believed Just like you and me.
And then it says that, “these people had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, but the Holy Spirit had not yet come down on any of them”.
If Jesus promises to send Holy Spirit to us then they should already have Holy Spirit and they do not need peter and John to put their hand on them to pray for them in order to receive Holy Spirit because they accepted the word of God and they also believe and Holy Spirit should automatically went to them. How is possible that peter and John have to go and pray for them.
It continues line 17, “When the two apostles laid their hands on the people, they received the Holy Spirit”.

1. They accept the word of Lord Jesus Christ
2. They believed AND
3. They Baptised
4. They did not receive Holy spirit

Romans 11:14, [SUP]14 [/SUP]in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy[SUP] and[/SUP] save[SUP] some[/SUP] of them.

 

[Enga]

ask if you have any of you have some question.

 

[jettrooper]

ask if you have any of you have some question.

What you say is the role of the Holy Spirit when it comes to the influence on modern culture?

 

[Enga]

Yes, but Holy Spirit is the one that will reveal all things that Jesus said and also we think that we have already receive holy spirit but we have not receive it. We have to find it then we will see everything including teh question of Culture.