Deacon run Church

[saved1975]

A prophet may travel or may be in one church. The Corinthian church apparently had some prophets right there in the congregation. The Jerusalem church did, too, but some of them took a trip to another church. One of those prophets went to meet Paul to give him a message when he was on his way to Jerusalem.

There can be prophets in a local church. If the church ignores what the Bible says in regard to how it's church meeting functions and suppresses spiritual gifts, (e.g. 'Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge), they can easily go unnoticed and unrecognized.

We often hear the word 'evangelist' used to refer to itinerant Bible teachers and exhorters who are not pastoring a local church. But in the Bible, Philip the evangelist proclaimed the gospel among those who had not heard it yet, and baptized those who believed the message. He also ministered in one-on-one evangelism.



But they are mentioned elsewhere. Many believe the seven in Jerusalem were deacons. Their job was feeding the poor, not telling everyone what to do. The elders and James did give some advice/instructions to Paul when he came to town, which he heeded, or was trying to heed until he got arrested.



The word translated 'bishop' means overseer. The same word is translated as either 'pastor' or 'shepherd.' The word refers to a sheep tender. It doesn't mean, "Solo local church CEO who does most of talking on Sunday." That's our cultural meaning of the word 'pastor', one which we should not read back into the text.



There is no basis in scripture for this. If there is someone with a gift of pastor in the church and he is not one of the elders of the church, not ordained as an overseer, then he should submit to the elders of the church. The apostles ordained elders to minister as bishops in the local church. Acts 20 and I Peter 5 command the elders of the church to 'pastor.' Translations obscure this fact when they use 'feed' or 'tend' to translate the verb form closely associated with the word 'pastor.'

Let's say a brand new believer has a budding gift of pastor. He is not qualified to serve as overseer in the church because he is a novice. Being appointing to the role has more requirements than gifting. A man should first demonstrate his pastoral skills by ruling his own house well, including his children, before being appointing to the role.

For about 1400 years or so, the main word for the church minister role was 'elder' or some derivation thereof. In English this came in as 'priest.' German had a very similar word that looks like 'priest' with a grammatical ending on it. The problem was, in Germanic languages, they started to use the word 'priest' and it's related cognate words to refer to Old Testament kohen. Now, elders in the Old Testament were not called 'kohen', they were called 'zaqen.' Being a priestly descendant of Aaron, and ministering in the temple at age 30, for example, did not make one an 'elder.'

So when Luther came on the scene, he spoke of the 'priesthood of all believers'-- not that all believers were elders, but priests in the sense referred to in the book of Revelation, a different word.

So, how did we get the word 'pastor' as the main word for Protestant clergy? There was a church in Geneva Switzerland, of which John Calvin was it's most famous minister. They sought to have a Christian society, with church and state intermixed. The word 'priest' was a loaded term, so they dropped it in favor of their word for 'pastor.' They believed the New Testament verses about 'elders' applied to their pastors who ministered in the word and sacrament.

In their attempt to design a theocracy, they examined writings about Greek-speaking Christian communities in Syria and North Africa in the 300's, and decided to emulate them in having 'garousia'. That word can also be translated as 'elder.' These were their city councilmen. So their city-councilmen were called elders. Since they had a hybrid of church and state, these 'elders' took on a prominent role in the church community.

John Knox knew and admired John Calvin and the work in Geneva. He later became the most famous Protestant Reformer in Scotland. The Church of Scotland imitated Geneva, even copying the distinction between 'pastors' and 'elders.' From hence the concept of the non-pastoral board elder spread around the world.

Btw, I got most of this from a theological journal written by a Presbyterian scholar.




The bible doesn't teach this.



The Bible doesn't teach this. Timothy was apparently an apostle (I Thes. 1:11, 2:6.) Paul also told him to do the work of an evangelist. He'd travel from place to place. When he was in Ephesus, he was supposed to appoint the local pastoral leadership. There were apparently multiple elders in the city. He may have had the option to appoint more.



Again, the Bible does not teach this and you are reading your ideas back into scripture. I am not familiar with any specific verse that attributes an Ephesians 4:11 ministry to Titus. It looks like he was doing the same sort of work the apostolic teams on the mainland were doing, preaching and appointing elders of the churches that formed. Crete was an island with more than one city. He was to appoint elders in every city, with the church in each city having it's own local church government. There is no indication that he was setting himself up as 'the pastor' over the whole island.



The Bible does not teach this.

Church history proves the Timotheus and Titus were the Pastors [Singular] of their Churches.

The Bible does teach that the Pastor is the leader of the local Church. Philippians 1: 1, And 1 Tim 3: 1-8, Are God's MO for His Church.
A Pastor and Deacons, Anything else is out of divine order.

 

[saved1975]

These are "gifts of the Spirit." And there are many more.............anyone who uses their Holy Spirit given gift for the work of the Kingdom is practicing their "ministry."

There can be, and usually are, more than one Elder in a congregation. And Elder is simply that..........an older, more mature believer within a congregation.

All this aside, it does not change the Truth that Jesus Christ is the HEAD of the Church.....be it a lone congregation or the entire Body.

(God bless)

I agree, An Elder, As an older person will be in some, if not most Churches, But the religious "Elder" isn't scriptural.
The Biblical Elder, Is the Pastor of the local Church.
He may have under-Pastors, Such as a youth Pastor, But the Pastor is the one who is the leader.

Jesus is the head and leader of the Church, Or He should be, But He has ordained the Pastor to be His under-shepherd.

 

[p_rehbein]

Church history proves the Timotheus and Titus were the Pastors [Singular] of their Churches.

The Bible does teach that the Pastor is the leader of the local Church. Philippians 1: 1, And 1 Tim 3: 1-8, Are God's MO for His Church.
A Pastor and Deacons, Anything else is out of divine order.

Uh, well, not really.............
[h=1]1 Corinthians
12[/h]
1 .) Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 .) Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 .) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 .) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 .) And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 .) And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 .) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 .) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 .) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 .) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 .) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 .) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 .) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 .) For the body is not one member, but many....................

But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 .) And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 .) Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 .) And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 .) For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 .) That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 .) And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 .) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 .) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 .) Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 .) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 .) But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

 

[p_rehbein]

I agree, An Elder, As an older person will be in some, if not most Churches, But the religious "Elder" isn't scriptural.
The Biblical Elder, Is the Pastor of the local Church.
He may have under-Pastors, Such as a youth Pastor, But the Pastor is the one who is the leader.

Jesus is the head and leader of the Church, Or He should be, But He has ordained the Pastor to be His under-shepherd.

Ok, decide between the Elder and the Pastor..............???

Yes, the Pastor of a congregation is the "spiritual leader" of that congregation............however that does not mean they are the "governing authority" of the congregation......big difference there.

 

[saved1975]

Uh, well, not really.............
1 Corinthians
12


1 .) Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 .) Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 .) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 .) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 .) And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 .) And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 .) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 .) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 .) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 .) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 .) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 .) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 .) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 .) For the body is not one member, but many....................

But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 .) And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 .) Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 .) And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 .) For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 .) That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 .) And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 .) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 .) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 .) Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 .) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 .) But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

What has that got to do with Timotheus and Titus, Being the Pastor or their local Churches.

 

[p_rehbein]

What has that got to do with Timotheus and Titus, Being the Pastor or their local Churches.

Nothing other than as it relates to this comment of yours............

QUOTE: The Bible does teach that the Pastor is the leader of the local Church. Philippians 1: 1, And 1 Tim 3: 1-8, Are God's MO for His Church.
A Pastor and Deacons, Anything else is out of divine order.
END QUOTE............

(refer to the words in red)

 

[saved1975]

Ok, decide between the Elder and the Pastor..............???

Yes, the Pastor of a congregation is the "spiritual leader" of that congregation............however that does not mean they are the "governing authority" of the congregation......big difference there.

The Greek Bible texts say that, The Pastor, Elder, Shepherd and Bishop, are all the same office, They all have the same Ministry, Which is the Pastor of the local Church.

 

[p_rehbein]

The Greek Bible texts say that, The Pastor, Elder, Shepherd and Bishop, are all the same office, They all have the same Ministry, Which is the Pastor of the local Church.

My Bible says:

1st Corinthians 12:27) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 .) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 .) Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 .) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


and that's not Greek to me...........

 

[saved1975]

My Bible says:

1st Corinthians 12:27) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 .) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 .) Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 .) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


and that's not Greek to me...........

That's because you quoted the Bible, NOT the Greek.

 

[p_rehbein]

That's because you quoted the Bible, NOT the Greek.

Well, yes.................thank you............

 

[presidente]

Church history proves the Timotheus and Titus were the Pastors [Singular] of their Churches.

So you are basing your doctrine on church history instead of scripture?

In 'church history' the idea developed of a distinction between elder and bishop, with the bishop being the leader of the elders/priests over one city. Crete is an island, btw. I Clement, a very early epistle, refers to the elders of the church in Corinth as 'bishops' plural. Paul also uses the term in the plural to address leaders in the church in Ephesus. I suspect later, when the one-man bishop practice was established, writers looked back into the New Testament, anachronistically claiming that this saint or that was the bishop of a certain church. Peter was claimed as bishop of Antioch and Rome. After a while, they did not have the Ephesians 4:11 ministries fully operating, and they read their own system back into the New Testament. Paul also seems to indicate in Galatians that James was an apostle.

The historical view doesn't fit with your one man pastor per local congregation model either, since you probably don't believe in one bishop over all the other priests in the city.

Timothy operated in an apostolic role. He would go with Paul to preach the Gospel in a city where there was no church, a church would be formed and grow. He'd preach elsewhere, and return to that first church to start a local eldership.

I'm not saying Timothy didn't pastor. But appointing elders is not the role of 'the pastor'-- in the modern sense of the word. In the Bible, elders were appointed by apostles. We also see that spiritual gifts could be imparted through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders. But we don't have any specific instances of a church with 'the pastor' over the other elders, let alone someone in this role appointing elders. Whether one accepts Timothy's apostolic ministry or not, he was to appoint overseers under the direction of Paul.

IMO, you should consider that you may have a lot of ideas about the role of 'pastor' that you have picked up from church tradition that are not taught in scripture. Maybe you think whatever church you go to 'has arrived' and the way they do things is right. I used to believe in the modern pastoral system until I studied it out in the New Testament. It's not consistent with Ephesians 4:11 or the whole picture of how these ministries operated in the Bible.

The elders, or bishops, were the appointed, 'officially recognized' leaders the apostles appointed in church. They may also have appointed deacons to serve in different roles, or the elders may have after they left. There is no indication that the apostles ever appointed someone to a separate role of 'the pastor' instead of elders, or over elders to tell them what to do. Either this is the same role as the elder, or it is a spiritual gift and if one is gifted with it and not appointed as an overseer in the church, he should submit to their leadership and operate in his unofficially recognized gift of pastor.

The problem with a lot of churches who forget history and don't pay much attention to scripture is that they don't see any Biblical qualifications to be 'pastor', so they focus on whether the person is 'called' which is rather subjective. Even worse, some of them focus on whether someone is 'called to preach'-- which is a call someone can have without having the gift of pastor. But the Bible gives lists of requirements for those who would oversee the church. And just being 'called to preach' isn't enough. If a man hasn't pastored his own family well and doesn't have his own life in order, then he is not qualified for the role. And many churches pay attention to how nice a man sounds when he preaches, instead of inquiring about his family life.

The Bible does teach that the Pastor is the leader of the local Church. Philippians 1: 1, And 1 Tim 3: 1-8, Are God's MO for His Church.
A Pastor and Deacons, Anything else is out of divine order.

The verses you quote don't use the word 'pastor.' It you look at the Titus 1 passage, elder and bishop are used interchangeably. Acts 20:28 shows that the elders of the church in Ephesus were made bishops by the Holy Ghost, and commands them to pastor the flock of God. You refer to Philippians 1:1. This speaks of bishops in the plural--in one church. This is talking about the elders of the church, not one big pastor.

What I'm saying is that the elders of the church, who are appointed as overseers, made overseers by the Holy Ghost, are pastors. But the Biblical practice is to have more than one of them in the local church, and there is no Biblical evidence that one of them is to be the church dictator over the others. They all are to submit to the leadership chief Pastor referred to in I Peter 5, which is Christ. Also, there were certain lifestyle and character qualifications laid out for being int he role. It wasn't just a matter of having a gifting or claiming a call.

 

[presidente]

The Greek Bible texts say that, The Pastor, Elder, Shepherd and Bishop, are all the same office, They all have the same Ministry, Which is the Pastor of the local Church.

You could probably find a commentary that gives an explanation along those lines, though that isn't a very linguistic approach to the issue. Poimen does not mean 'pastor.' Neither does presbuteros or episkopos. The Bible does tell presbuteros, elders, to 'pastor' the flock of God, to 'pastor' the church of God. (See Acts 20:28 and I Peter 5 and look up feed or tend in the Greek for details.)

Apostles were also told to pastor. Paul asks, regarding his own right to be paid, "Who pastors a flock and does not drink of the milk thereof." Jesus tells Peter 'pastor My sheep' and 'pastor my lambs'.

Some translations obscure this connect, using the word 'feed' for a verb form that could be translated 'pastor' which is closely related to poimen. They probably do this because the meaning of a Hebrew word translated pastor is 'feed' and because of previous translations. I speak a foreign language and their Bible translation uses a verb form derived from 'pastor', which I think better reflects the Greek.

There are some differences between what we see in scripture and what we see in many churches.

1. Scripture presents the apostles appointing multiple elders, and commanding elders to pastor.
2. There is no indication that they set up one elder above the rest as 'the pastor.'
3. The Bible emphasizes being in one according, being in one heart and one mind, and there are examples of the church having some input on decisions (
e.g. the choosing of the seven, the church discussing the Gentile circumcision issue before the council at Jerusalem, Jesus teaching the last step of a church discipline process where the offender is brought before the congregation and has a chance to hear the congregation, the congregation were actively being involved in expelling the immoral brother spoken of in I Corinthians 5.)
4. Elders were appointed from within their own congregation. There is no evidence that they were professional 'hired gun' clergymen from the outside.
5. Overseers had to live up to a specific set of lifestyle and character qualifications, and not just claim to be 'called.'
6. The 'call to preach' or 'call to pastor' isn't even specifically mentioned in scripture as a qualification. Desire is.
7. There is no specific evidence that the way early church elders were compensated was by a set salary, though elders who ruled well were worthy of 'double honor' especially those who ministered in preaching and teaching.
8. The elders did not do all the teaching, else we wouldn't know if they were 'apt to teach' prior to appointment. In I Corinthians 14:26, 'every one of you' could do the teaching, prophesying, etc.
9. Other than elders being 'at to teach' scripture does not emphasize their role of one of them being 'the speaker' in a given church meeting. The saints, including the elders are to 'exhort one another.' The prophets are specifically mentioned as having a speaking role in church in I Corinthians 14, but elders are not specifically mentioned.

 

[saved1975]

So you are basing your doctrine on church history instead of scripture?

In 'church history' the idea developed of a distinction between elder and bishop, with the bishop being the leader of the elders/priests over one city. Crete is an island, btw. I Clement, a very early epistle, refers to the elders of the church in Corinth as 'bishops' plural. Paul also uses the term in the plural to address leaders in the church in Ephesus. I suspect later, when the one-man bishop practice was established, writers looked back into the New Testament, anachronistically claiming that this saint or that was the bishop of a certain church. Peter was claimed as bishop of Antioch and Rome. After a while, they did not have the Ephesians 4:11 ministries fully operating, and they read their own system back into the New Testament. Paul also seems to indicate in Galatians that James was an apostle.

The historical view doesn't fit with your one man pastor per local congregation model either, since you probably don't believe in one bishop over all the other priests in the city.

Timothy operated in an apostolic role. He would go with Paul to preach the Gospel in a city where there was no church, a church would be formed and grow. He'd preach elsewhere, and return to that first church to start a local eldership.

I'm not saying Timothy didn't pastor. But appointing elders is not the role of 'the pastor'-- in the modern sense of the word. In the Bible, elders were appointed by apostles. We also see that spiritual gifts could be imparted through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders. But we don't have any specific instances of a church with 'the pastor' over the other elders, let alone someone in this role appointing elders. Whether one accepts Timothy's apostolic ministry or not, he was to appoint overseers under the direction of Paul.

IMO, you should consider that you may have a lot of ideas about the role of 'pastor' that you have picked up from church tradition that are not taught in scripture. Maybe you think whatever church you go to 'has arrived' and the way they do things is right. I used to believe in the modern pastoral system until I studied it out in the New Testament. It's not consistent with Ephesians 4:11 or the whole picture of how these ministries operated in the Bible.

The elders, or bishops, were the appointed, 'officially recognized' leaders the apostles appointed in church. They may also have appointed deacons to serve in different roles, or the elders may have after they left. There is no indication that the apostles ever appointed someone to a separate role of 'the pastor' instead of elders, or over elders to tell them what to do. Either this is the same role as the elder, or it is a spiritual gift and if one is gifted with it and not appointed as an overseer in the church, he should submit to their leadership and operate in his unofficially recognized gift of pastor.

The problem with a lot of churches who forget history and don't pay much attention to scripture is that they don't see any Biblical qualifications to be 'pastor', so they focus on whether the person is 'called' which is rather subjective. Even worse, some of them focus on whether someone is 'called to preach'-- which is a call someone can have without having the gift of pastor. But the Bible gives lists of requirements for those who would oversee the church. And just being 'called to preach' isn't enough. If a man hasn't pastored his own family well and doesn't have his own life in order, then he is not qualified for the role. And many churches pay attention to how nice a man sounds when he preaches, instead of inquiring about his family life.



The verses you quote don't use the word 'pastor.' It you look at the Titus 1 passage, elder and bishop are used interchangeably. Acts 20:28 shows that the elders of the church in Ephesus were made bishops by the Holy Ghost, and commands them to pastor the flock of God. You refer to Philippians 1:1. This speaks of bishops in the plural--in one church. This is talking about the elders of the church, not one big pastor.

What I'm saying is that the elders of the church, who are appointed as overseers, made overseers by the Holy Ghost, are pastors. But the Biblical practice is to have more than one of them in the local church, and there is no Biblical evidence that one of them is to be the church dictator over the others. They all are to submit to the leadership chief Pastor referred to in I Peter 5, which is Christ. Also, there were certain lifestyle and character qualifications laid out for being int he role. It wasn't just a matter of having a gifting or claiming a call.

The Greek meaning for, Pastor, Bishop, Elder and Shepherd, are all the same, And that means, The Pastor is a Bishop, and Elder and a Shepherd.
God's MO for the running of the Church is, Pastor and Deacons... Anything else is out of divine order.

 

[saved1975]

You could probably find a commentary that gives an explanation along those lines, though that isn't a very linguistic approach to the issue. Poimen does not mean 'pastor.' Neither does presbuteros or episkopos. The Bible does tell presbuteros, elders, to 'pastor' the flock of God, to 'pastor' the church of God. (See Acts 20:28 and I Peter 5 and look up feed or tend in the Greek for details.)

Apostles were also told to pastor. Paul asks, regarding his own right to be paid, "Who pastors a flock and does not drink of the milk thereof." Jesus tells Peter 'pastor My sheep' and 'pastor my lambs'.

Some translations obscure this connect, using the word 'feed' for a verb form that could be translated 'pastor' which is closely related to poimen. They probably do this because the meaning of a Hebrew word translated pastor is 'feed' and because of previous translations. I speak a foreign language and their Bible translation uses a verb form derived from 'pastor', which I think better reflects the Greek.

There are some differences between what we see in scripture and what we see in many churches.

1. Scripture presents the apostles appointing multiple elders, and commanding elders to pastor.
2. There is no indication that they set up one elder above the rest as 'the pastor.'
3. The Bible emphasizes being in one according, being in one heart and one mind, and there are examples of the church having some input on decisions (
e.g. the choosing of the seven, the church discussing the Gentile circumcision issue before the council at Jerusalem, Jesus teaching the last step of a church discipline process where the offender is brought before the congregation and has a chance to hear the congregation, the congregation were actively being involved in expelling the immoral brother spoken of in I Corinthians 5.)
4. Elders were appointed from within their own congregation. There is no evidence that they were professional 'hired gun' clergymen from the outside.
5. Overseers had to live up to a specific set of lifestyle and character qualifications, and not just claim to be 'called.'
6. The 'call to preach' or 'call to pastor' isn't even specifically mentioned in scripture as a qualification. Desire is.
7. There is no specific evidence that the way early church elders were compensated was by a set salary, though elders who ruled well were worthy of 'double honor' especially those who ministered in preaching and teaching.
8. The elders did not do all the teaching, else we wouldn't know if they were 'apt to teach' prior to appointment. In I Corinthians 14:26, 'every one of you' could do the teaching, prophesying, etc.
9. Other than elders being 'at to teach' scripture does not emphasize their role of one of them being 'the speaker' in a given church meeting. The saints, including the elders are to 'exhort one another.' The prophets are specifically mentioned as having a speaking role in church in I Corinthians 14, but elders are not specifically mentioned.

The Bible and the Greek Bible texts prove that God's MO for the Church is, The Pastor and Deacons.
The Elders, [Plural] were appointed to every city, Not every Church.

In the early days, before the Church was fully established, Or being set up, The Apostles and the presbytery Had to Pastor the Church, But when the Churches were fully established and Jesus gave the Ministry gifts. The Pastor, [Singular] was the leader of the Church, He was under Jesus, The head of the Church.

God's MO for the running of the Church, Is, a Pastor and Deacons.
Philippians 1: 1. 1 Tim 3: 1--8.

 

[presidente]

The Greek meaning for, Pastor, Bishop, Elder and Shepherd, are all the same,

This is false. Elder means 'older man.' Bishop means 'overseers.' Pastor and shepherd are translated from the same Greek word.

God's MO for the running of the Church is, Pastor and Deacons... Anything else is out of divine order.

So are you saying you don't believe in Ephesians 4:11 ministry, including the ministry of apostles? And that you don't believe in there being a congregation?

 

[Yet]

Jesus put functions in the ekklesia. Office is a mistranslation by the King James translators for the purpose of controlling the folks, top down, starting with James the king then from the religious wolves down. The word office denotes this satanic hierarchy that the scriptures soundly condemn.

Lucifer in Isaiah 14' lifted himself above the congregation through his servant the king of Babylon. He does so today through the clerics who love the praise of men (think Pharisees). Jesus called them snakes....I didn't say that, the true Jesus Christ, Yeshuah Ha Meshiach, of the bible you own and use said that.

Any man that exalts himself will be humbled. There are a lot of men and women in this exalted domineering position that mean well with a true heart for God. But they are in gross error nonetheless.


Wake up to 'what says the Spirit unto the ekklesia' and has been saying all along. The Jesus of the bible said in Matt. 23 'it shall not be so among you'. If your gathering has the false clerical/laity system in play, that's a different Jesus, a different spirit, and a different gospel. Harsh? You bet. But so are the NT scriptures on this.

 

[Osiyo]

thinming=taming the deacons

And in a day when Gospel music and Gospel preaching and Gospel work can become so mechanical or ordinated toward me, myself and I. It reminds all of us today that we have to do Gods work with Gods Spirit. We have to do Gods work and approach it with Gods heart because one day, it does not matter if your friends approve of you or how popular you are or I might be. One day the Bible says I will stand, in front of the one whose eyes are like fire, and I can’t get over on Him.

The bible says that when Jesus went into the Temple He reminded us, this is not your house, this is my Father’s house, and my Father’s house has to be run my Father’s way. And when you touch something sacred in a secular way, I’m going to kick you all out of here. And even though He’s not walking through churches today and kicking people out, there is going to come that day when Paul says that we’ll all stand at the judgment seat of Christ. And we’re going to have to give a review to the Lord, and we will be reviewed, on why we did what we did and how we did it.

OK, what is the point here. Here are the definitions of what a pastor and deacons are:

Baptists declare the office of pastor is one of two that a church patterned after New Testament churches should have. The Bible uses three words for the same office: elder, pastor and bishop. In the Greek language of the New Testament, these words indicate different functions and not different persons (Acts 20:17-28;1 Peter 5:1-5).
Baptists look to the Bible for the qualifications for persons to serve as pastor (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9). The qualifications fall generally into two categories character and gifts for ministry. The office of pastor should be used to serve others, not in selfish or self-promoting ways.
Each Baptist church selects (calls) the person to be its pastor. The specific process differs to some degree among churches, but the following pattern is followed by most.
• When the church is pastor less, the congregation elects a pastor search committee to prayerfully evaluate the qualifications of various persons to be the church’s pastor.
• After careful deliberation, the committee recommends to the church as a whole the person it believes God wants to be the pastor.
• The prospective pastor visits the church and preaches “in view of a call.” The congregation then votes on whether or not to “call” the person. If the vote is favourable, the prospective pastor either accepts or declines.
• A pastor serves in the church as long as both pastor and congregation agree the relationship should continue.
The relationship of pastor and church is a very special one. Each has opportunities and responsibilities which, when properly met, make the relationship positive and productive. For example, the church should pray for, provide financial support to, encourage and assist the pastor in carrying out the purposes of the church. Likewise, a pastor should pray for, minister to, disciple and provide godly servant leadership for the people of the church.

Baptist Deacons
The second office in a Baptist church is that of deacon. Whereas pastors are usually selected from persons outside the membership of the congregation, deacons are selected from within the membership. The biblical qualifications for a deacon (1 Timothy 3:8-13) focus primarily on character and relationships within the church, family and community. Deacons are to be persons of impeccable character and deep faith who rely on the Holy Spirit.
Acts 6:1-6 likely records the beginning of the role of deacons. They are to care for the physical needs of the congregation so that pastors can concentrate on spiritual needs. The deacons are not viewed as a governing body but as servant leaders.
In a Baptist church the process of selecting deacons involves the entire congregation. Although churches differ in regard to the details of the process, the common practice is for the entire church to vote on who will be selected as deacons.
The role of a deacon varies from church to church. In many churches, deacons are asked to evaluate and recommend major matters to be brought to the entire congregation for vote. Churches involve deacons in various ministries, such as visiting the sick, helping families in distress and providing relief to the poor.

And now the advice that will work. Our church had this same problem and we (the body) over came it.

First off be bold in the Spirit, pray, and I mean really pray, as the Church belongs to Christ, He personally will be very interested in this situation. He's on your side, you cannot fail with Him on your side, so align yourself through prayer and you will witness the true power of the Spirit of the living God, Don't argue with them, make your statements Biblical, and only biblical, use the rules and regulations laid down in the Bible for just such cases. But without earnest pray, it will not work for you as you are up against the spirit of the antichrist here, he is the driving force behind this. In all prayers especially before the deacons, rebuke Satan in the name of Jesus every time you pray, allow the Spirit to lead, this is simple to do, do nothing, the Spirit will lead you, just be empty, no emotions, just an empty vessel, and let the Lord fill you, and He will, because it's his Father House! Be blessed and your Church is now on the prayer list, and we will pray, because without prayer there is no power of grace.

 

[saved1975]

This is false. Elder means 'older man.' Bishop means 'overseers.' Pastor and shepherd are translated from the same Greek word.



So are you saying you don't believe in Ephesians 4:11 ministry, including the ministry of apostles? And that you don't believe in there being a congregation?

Ekder can mean an older man, but it also means the Pastor.
If you check the Greek, You will see it.



I believe in all of the five fold Ministry,
And an Apostle will be in a Church, but he will have no Authority over the Pastor.

 

[john832]

That's because you quoted the Bible, NOT the Greek.

I cannot read, write or speak Greek, so I guess I am doomed.

 

[saved1975]

I cannot read, write or speak Greek, so I guess I am doomed.

Not knowing the Greek doesn't doom you.
It's the rejection of Jesus that will doom people.