Defense of Marriage Act: US Appeals Court

[TheGrungeDiva]

THIS ARTICLE was in the NYTimes. I'd be interested in hearing commentary, pro and con.

 

[celestemekent]

IF this country was a theocracy then I would find that article worrisome but it is not. We live in a secular society and we must not allow our own religious sense to cloud what is best for the country much less for our neighbor. The principle of equality before the law is so incredibly important as a constitutional principle that I would go very far when making allowances for others before striking it down. At our founding it was one of the precious few principles that set us apart from our mother country England. Sadly even that is being eroded away when it comes to the elites in our society given their $1000/hr lawyers and $5000 suits. We can only pretend that the wealthy get the very same treatment as the corner drug dealer when it comes to the outcomes of our court systems.

While I am not gay and have no pretense of beginning a gay marriage, the right for that gay marriage actually strengthens the concept of (normal) marriage in the long run. It engenders a broader sense of fair play and equality that enhances society. Allowing something for others (like gay marriage) has no negative effect on my life, therefore I support it.

 

[InNeedOfHelp]

I may get banned for saying this, but at this point I don't care. Anyways, I am a Christian and I am gay. I don't really care how many people tell me it is impossible to be both because I know I am both. I am done living my life hating myself. I won't do it anymore. I have prayed and cried with all my might asking God to take this away from me and He has not. Either God wants me as a gay man or He has already decided I am to spend eternity in Hell. Either way I will still praise him as the gay man I am.

As for the article, in my own biased opinion I see no problem with gay marriage and I think it should be legal. Not everyone believes the way the Christians who oppose it believe so why should everyone "suffer" from their particular beliefs. Honestly, what constitutes marriage in God's eyes? Is it what man classifies as marriage or what He classifies as marriage?

 

[Nautilus]

If anyone can give a logical argument about the benefits of denying equal rights I'll listen. Otherwise they need to shut up and stop trying to force everyone in the country to live by their worldviews.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I may get banned for saying this, but at this point I don't care. Anyways, I am a Christian and I am gay. I don't really care how many people tell me it is impossible to be both because I know I am both. I am done living my life hating myself. I won't do it anymore. I have prayed and cried with all my might asking God to take this away from me and He has not. Either God wants me as a gay man or He has already decided I am to spend eternity in Hell. Either way I will still praise him as the gay man I am.

As for the article, in my own biased opinion I see no problem with gay marriage and I think it should be legal. Not everyone believes the way the Christians who oppose it believe so why should everyone "suffer" from their particular beliefs. Honestly, what constitutes marriage in God's eyes? Is it what man classifies as marriage or what He classifies as marriage?

Thank you for sharing with us. I, for one, hope you do not get banned simply for stating your views.

As I've said before, we are all sinners, and as soon as I get all the beams out of my own eyes, I'll be able to see to help you get the specks out of yours. In the mean time, your sexual orientation is between you and God (and any partner or partners you may have, of course), and that's all that matters.

 

[RickyZ]

I may get banned for saying this, but at this point I don't care. Anyways, I am a Christian and I am gay. I don't really care how many people tell me it is impossible to be both because I know I am both. I am done living my life hating myself. I won't do it anymore. I have prayed and cried with all my might asking God to take this away from me and He has not. Either God wants me as a gay man or He has already decided I am to spend eternity in Hell. Either way I will still praise him as the gay man I am.

As for the article, in my own biased opinion I see no problem with gay marriage and I think it should be legal. Not everyone believes the way the Christians who oppose it believe so why should everyone "suffer" from their particular beliefs. Honestly, what constitutes marriage in God's eyes? Is it what man classifies as marriage or what He classifies as marriage?

Amen. God doesn't judge you and niether should anyone else here. We all do unbiblical things in our lives, it's part of that fallen nature, throw the first stone thing. Jesus says just come to Me and we'll figure it out in the end.

What constitutes marriage in God's eyes? When you 'make two into one'. That's what establishes a spousal relationship.

 

[quakerzen]

As someone that works in politics, I find it really intriguing that an EXTREMELY conservative judge wrote the opinion stating the Defense of Marriage Act is unfair. As a liberal Quaker, I find it really exciting that even conservatives are opening their hearts to equality for all of our brothers and sisters, gay/straight, black/white, rich/poor, young/old.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

As someone that works in politics, I find it really intriguing that an EXTREMELY conservative judge wrote the opinion stating the Defense of Marriage Act is unfair. As a liberal Quaker, I find it really exciting that even conservatives are opening their hearts to equality for all of our brothers and sisters, gay/straight, black/white, rich/poor, young/old.

I tried to say "me too" but that wasn't enough of a response.

So, "Yes, me too." And I really mean it.

 

[celestemekent]

That judge might have been very conservative, but he was not an evangelical. There is the critical difference because the religiously conservatives have little problem mixing religion and politics and would leave this country in a sort of theocracy if given the chance.

 

[meecha]

Amen. God doesn't judge you and niether should anyone else here. We all do unbiblical things in our lives, it's part of 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

that fallen nature, throw the first stone thing. Jesus says just come to Me and we'll figure it out in the end.

What constitutes marriage in God's eyes? When you 'make two into one'. That's what establishes a spousal relationship.

I Cor 6
Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.


sorry to spoil the party guys but this is total nonsense. God really does judge you the moment you declare that your sin is not sin. In the beginning God created them male and female for the purpose of procreation. Do not be deceived. We all struggle with sin but we are to keep on struggling until we overcome. My struggle with anger or pornography is no less a struggle than InNeeds struggle with same sex attraction....but I can never say that God made me that way and nor can you. We need to repent and turn again to Christ daily taking seriously his warnings and seeking the fellowship of the saints; we need to persevere and not give up. Homosexual marriage is a playing out of Romans 1. It is the sign of a society coming under severe and terminal judgement.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I Cor 6
Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

So, you see that little "a" after the word "homosexuals"? That's a footnote. You did not indicate what the footnote was. Perhaps you didn't know.

For you, then, and/or anyone out there who is unaware, the Greek word that is translated here as "homosexuals" has nothing to do with same-sex marriage or same-sex sex. A study of other Greek documents written around the 1st century reveals that this word has to do with men who are lazy, who don't do physical labor. The confusion came because men who thought themselves "above" physical and/or manual labor were seen, in that culture, as feminine. (Another word often used, perhaps more properly, is "effeminate.") It is similar to today's culture what we might call a "pansy" -- someone who is wimpy ... "you throw like a girl...." There is also a bit touch of the "gadabout" personality implied by this term.

Sexism aside (I know some women who could knock most any man down in a fight, and in most societies, women all too often have to do back-breaking work as much as, or more than, men), what Paul is decrying is not same-sex relationships, but skirting one's responsibilities, being haughty and/or lazy.

This word has NOTHING to do with homosexuality, and any version that has chosen to translate it that way is just plain wrong. I don't usually come out and say something is wrong like this -- I'm more likely to "agree to disagree" on most topics. But in this case, it's just plain wrong.

 

[celestemekent]

Actually I think the best term for it is cowards. Of all those characteristics of humans God hates cowards the most. People who wont stand for anything not even their own ideas it is a condition that is an opposite of faith.

 

[meecha]

So, you see that little "a" after the word "homosexuals"? That's a footnote. You did not indicate what the footnote was. Perhaps you didn't know.

For you, then, and/or anyone out there who is unaware, the Greek word that is translated here as "homosexuals" has nothing to do with same-sex marriage or same-sex sex. A study of other Greek documents written around the 1st century reveals that this word has to do with men who are lazy, who don't do physical labor. The confusion came because men who thought themselves "above" physical and/or manual labor were seen, in that culture, as feminine. (Another word often used, perhaps more properly, is "effeminate.") It is similar to today's culture what we might call a "pansy" -- someone who is wimpy ... "you throw like a girl...." There is also a bit touch of the "gadabout" personality implied by this term.

Sexism aside (I know some women who could knock most any man down in a fight, and in most societies, women all too often have to do back-breaking work as much as, or more than, men), what Paul is decrying is not same-sex relationships, but skirting one's responsibilities, being haughty and/or lazy.

This word has NOTHING to do with homosexuality, and any version that has chosen to translate it that way is just plain wrong. I don't usually come out and say something is wrong like this -- I'm more likely to "agree to disagree" on most topics. But in this case, it's just plain wrong.

The ESV translates the phrase "nor men who practice homosexuality". the footnote in theEnglish Standard Version which is the most to date literal version of the Greek says the following: the greek phrase refers to the passive and activ partners in consensual homosexual acts.

This word has NOTHING to do with homosexuality, and any version that has chosen to translate it that way is just plain wrong. I don't usually come out and say something is wrong like this -- I'm more likely to "agree to disagree" on most topics. But in this case, it's just plain wrong

I,ve been away for a few weeks Grunge....I didn't realise you'd become a Greek scholar?

 

[meecha]

malakos= soft,effeminate
arsenokoyte=one who lies with a male as with a female (Thayers)

the two taken together denote the passive and active role in homosexual sex...the former playing the "girl"

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Actually I think the best term for it is cowards. Of all those characteristics of humans God hates cowards the most. People who wont stand for anything not even their own ideas it is a condition that is an opposite of faith.

I respectfully disagree, celeste.

One must consider the culture in which Paul and his audience lived. I see where you're going, and you may be on to something, with cowardice being a grievous sin culturally as well. But the way I see it, in that culture, men worked "outside the home," as it were. Women were the "homebodies." A man who lazed about the house, not breaking a sweat to do "honest day's work," chatting with the ladies ... that is the image that is called to mind. At least, that is my understanding from studying history of Greek culture of that day.

Either way, it has nothing to do with homosexuality ... we are in agreement there.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I,ve been away for a few weeks Grunge....I didn't realise you'd become a Greek scholar?

I didn't "just become" a Greek scholar. I have been versed in Greek language and culture since I began studying Koine in 1992. How long have you been studying it?

 

[JimJimmers]

I have no particular commentary, pro or con, for the dismantling of DOMA, but this is relevant to the issue. Same-Sex Couple Sues Over Wedding Site - WSJ.com

 

[InNeedOfHelp]

I Cor 6
Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.


sorry to spoil the party guys but this is total nonsense. God really does judge you the moment you declare that your sin is not sin. In the beginning God created them male and female for the purpose of procreation. Do not be deceived. We all struggle with sin but we are to keep on struggling until we overcome. My struggle with anger or pornography is no less a struggle than InNeeds struggle with same sex attraction....but I can never say that God made me that way and nor can you. We need to repent and turn again to Christ daily taking seriously his warnings and seeking the fellowship of the saints; we need to persevere and not give up. Homosexual marriage is a playing out of Romans 1. It is the sign of a society coming under severe and terminal judgement.

Well maybe you missed my post I don't know, but I have prayed to God to change me since I was 12. I am 18 now. That is 6 years. Why have I not changed even the slightest bit over these 6 years? Why if homosexuality is such a sin would he let me float in it and then to only let me sink and drown? Why has God not saved me from this sin if He hates it so much? Am I not worthy enough to be saved? Does God really hate me? Why do I have to end up like this? My parents will hate me if they know this about me. How could they love an abomination? Do I deserve to live? Do you not realize what thoughts like these can do to a child who is only 12? I really don't think you do. Do you realize that suicide is much much higher in teens who are gay. I would like to say that I have had these thoughts at some point. I have thought about how life would be better if I had not been born into my family. My parents don't need a gay child. It would only crush them as they are Bible believing Christians.

However, at this point in my life I have came to the conclusion that me not being here is not the answer. Everyone is here for a reason no matter how big or small that reason is so I have decided as I said in my post that since I am not changing in the slightest bit that I will praise God no matter what. If He accepts me into Heaven that is His choice, if he sends me to Hell that is also his choice. I would prefer the first, but it is all up to Him.

Also, did God really create Adam and Eve to procreate? To my knowledge they had no procreation until after the garden. Wouldn't it seem kind of funny to have the garden start filling up with people? I mean honestly, think about it for a second. Noah lived until he was like 900 I think. That is freaking old so I don't think procreation was the first thing on their mind. Lets look at a verse...

Genesis 2:18 (NKJV)
18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”

All that says is he made Eve so Adam would not have to be alone. Not one thing about procreation and if you want to expand out on it a little more none of the surrounding verses say anything about procreation. While we are on the subject of procreation if that was God's original intent for all of mankind then what about the people who physically can not father or mother a child? From your understanding of this one point they need to repent of not being able to have babies? Is not having a child a sin?

How is a loving relationship the playing out of Romans 1? If you are directly referring to Romans 1:26-27 that refers to lustful acts not loving committed relationships. How do you equate the two? Also if I have never been attracted to a woman in my life, which I haven't(no offense ladies I just find your woman areas unappealing) then how would it be unnatural for me to be with a man(which I have never been with a guy). Wouldn't me going against my attractions to please society be unnatural. Also if God creates everything what do you say to the animals who are gay. Some of the gay ones even mate for life. God created them didn't He? I don't see how you could say He didn't. It is the same basic concept.

Also I would like to thank you TheGrungeDiva and RickyZ, you were/are both very nice.

 

[sweetspiritgirl]

Sad to see lovers of God in such confussion...Yes God loves you but your either for him or against him...When you love God you love his word..You either choose you or you choose God..Says my people DIE FOR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ..seems to me your so busy praying you forgot to build a relationship with God..cant do that with out knowing his word..how are you to know him to love him ? Yet you pray..Gods word should flow through your spirit causing change causing you to be alive in spirit and dead in your transgressons..HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY YOUR TWO OPTIONJS FOR THEY DO NOT COME FROM HIS WORD? God sent Jesus to bring LIFE unto youy and your going to throw it all away for a gay love? Shame on you to think so foolishly...You choose to trample the blood of Jesus and yet speak as if God is wrong so that you can be right? God is supreme..his love is never dying he called you by name and yousay im going to praise God as a gay man? Seems to me the seeds that have been inplanted into you are not that of Jesus..Think of when eve was tricked..guess she isnt the only one now is she? The world wants to fit Jesus into their lifes into their worlds...sorry when you accepted Jesus into your heart you gave your rights to do as you plz away and you picked up that cross and said i will follow you ..I dont speak my oppinion cause theres no life nor power in it..but what i do speak comes from a word that shall nvr pass away..You choose to serve GOD AND disobey him..fine you do so hun...but remember this God didnt pre destine us to be gay were predestined to be his children ..were given the right to choose..seems like the only thing between you and God is your choose of lifestyle..hope you dont hear the words i know you not....As for me anything that sets itself against the knowledge of God shall be brought down..for I love Gods word..for in the begibnning was the word and the word was with God and the word is GOD..Lord bring forth the labors into the harvest and to speak of you glorious word whom Satan tried to cover up and get our eyes fixed upon the lies of his dark kingdom...I pray for you hun that truth shall come to you that calrity shall follow you all the days of your life...and that thst confussed spirit that oipresses you will be brokjen off you in the name of Jesus and in doing so you will be like a saul who became a paul ..thats the power of my God he can open the heavens and pour out his spirit to bring revelation and knowledge that comes FROMN THE GREAT I AM I AM..In jesus name let this man see!!

 

[InNeedOfHelp]

Sad to see lovers of God in such confussion...Yes God loves you but your either for him or against him...When you love God you love his word..You either choose you or you choose God..Says my people DIE FOR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ..seems to me your so busy praying you forgot to build a relationship with God..cant do that with out knowing his word..how are you to know him to love him ? Yet you pray..Gods word should flow through your spirit causing change causing you to be alive in spirit and dead in your transgressons..HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY YOUR TWO OPTIONJS FOR THEY DO NOT COME FROM HIS WORD? God sent Jesus to bring LIFE unto youy and your going to throw it all away for a gay love? Shame on you to think so foolishly...You choose to trample the blood of Jesus and yet speak as if God is wrong so that you can be right? God is supreme..his love is never dying he called you by name and yousay im going to praise God as a gay man? Seems to me the seeds that have been inplanted into you are not that of Jesus..Think of when eve was tricked..guess she isnt the only one now is she? The world wants to fit Jesus into their lifes into their worlds...sorry when you accepted Jesus into your heart you gave your rights to do as you plz away and you picked up that cross and said i will follow you ..I dont speak my oppinion cause theres no life nor power in it..but what i do speak comes from a word that shall nvr pass away..You choose to serve GOD AND disobey him..fine you do so hun...but remember this God didnt pre destine us to be gay were predestined to be his children ..were given the right to choose..seems like the only thing between you and God is your choose of lifestyle..hope you dont hear the words i know you not....As for me anything that sets itself against the knowledge of God shall be brought down..for I love Gods word..for in the begibnning was the word and the word was with God and the word is GOD..Lord bring forth the labors into the harvest and to speak of you glorious word whom Satan tried to cover up and get our eyes fixed upon the lies of his dark kingdom...I pray for you hun that truth shall come to you that calrity shall follow you all the days of your life...and that thst confussed spirit that oipresses you will be brokjen off you in the name of Jesus and in doing so you will be like a saul who became a paul ..thats the power of my God he can open the heavens and pour out his spirit to bring revelation and knowledge that comes FROMN THE GREAT I AM I AM..In jesus name let this man see!!

And this is why I have thought of killing myself before. Good job. Some Christian you are.