Demons have rights

[Mitspa]

I hate this thread title and seeing it every time I go to the Bible section.

Yea I thought Obama had passed some new rules for demons ...until I read the OP and the point she was trying to make.

 

[Rudimental]

I'd just like to point out that Satan and his angels have NOT yet been cast out of heaven. For example, Satan appeared before the LORD in heaven in the book of Job and he's still referred to as "the accuser of the brethren" who accuses the saints daily before God's throne in the book of Revelation.

Out of curiosity, when do you believe that Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven? Thanks.

Because it is written.

Revelation 12:7-12 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And...

Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Satan WAS case from Heaven, how can you say that he wasn't when it says in black and white that he was? What was the war about if it wasn't to cast Satan out? (who really wanted to stay in and take the throne of God as his)

He has "restricted access" with no open access to God but a "restricted (summoned) access only. The visits are temporary. His time before God’s throne is limited. 3) In no way is the purity of heaven tainted by the brief, God-ordained presence of a sinful being, “quarantined,” as it were in one of the lower heavens and not the top where God Himself is.

When we say, “God cannot allow sin into heaven,” we simply mean that God cannot allow human beings who are still in their sin to live in His presence. But it is possible for God to command a sinful being to stand (temporarily) in His presence in order to commission him (Isaiah 6), to exact an account from him (Job 1-2), or to judge him (Revelation 20:11-15) without compromising His holiness.

God’s holiness will eventually consume all sin. Until that day, His holiness regulates sin, and that means that Satan, on certain occasions, is briefly summoned before his Creator to give an account of his actions. But the earth is his home.

God bless.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Because it is written.

Revelation 12:7-12 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And...

Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Satan WAS case from Heaven, how can you say that he wasn't when it says in black and white that he was? What was the war about if it wasn't to cast Satan out? (who really wanted to stay in and take the throne of God as his)

He has "restricted access" with no open access to God but a "restricted (summoned) access only. The visits are temporary. His time before God’s throne is limited. 3) In no way is the purity of heaven tainted by the brief, God-ordained presence of a sinful being, “quarantined,” as it were in one of the lower heavens and not the top where God Himself is.

When we say, “God cannot allow sin into heaven,” we simply mean that God cannot allow human beings who are still in their sin to live in His presence. But it is possible for God to command a sinful being to stand (temporarily) in His presence in order to commission him (Isaiah 6), to exact an account from him (Job 1-2), or to judge him (Revelation 20:11-15) without compromising His holiness.

God’s holiness will eventually consume all sin. Until that day, His holiness regulates sin, and that means that Satan, on certain occasions, is briefly summoned before his Creator to give an account of his actions. But the earth is his home.

God bless.

What you quoted from Revelation chapter 12 is YET FUTURE. I addressed the same on another thread a while back, so I'll just "quote" myself if you don't mind:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104781-war-heaven.html#post1822372

Daniel chapter 11

[31] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
[32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
[33] And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
[34] Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
[35] And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
[36] And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
[37] Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
[38] But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
[39] Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
[40] And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
[41] He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
[42] He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
[43] But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
[44] But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
[45] And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel chapter 12

[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The prophet Daniel had been mourning and praying for three full weeks (Daniel 10:1-12) and then he was visited by an angel who revealed unto him what would happen in relation to his people ("thy people" - Daniel 12:1), the Israelites/Jews, in the end times. Yes, the angel forewarned Daniel of the antichrist who would "enter also into the glorious land" (Daniel 11:41) or enter into Israel and "plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain" (Daniel 11:45). IOW, the antichrist will be situated in Israel in the last days. Yes, the antichrist will "exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods" (Daniel 11:36). Furthermore, the antichrist will also "pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate" (Daniel 11:31). IOW, there is a coming rebuilt temple in Jerusalem in which "the daily sacrifice" will be restored until the time comes that the antichrist "takes away" the same and "places the abomination that maketh desolate" in "the sanctuary of strength", thereby "polluting" it. Yes, it's called "the abomination that maketh desolate" because when said "abomination" is placed within the rebuilt temple, then God will allow invading armies into Jerusalem to "make it desolate". Anyhow, it is at this juncture in time, when "the abomination that maketh desolate" is set up within the coming rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, that "Michael shall stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" (Daniel 12:1) or when what is commonly called "the great tribulation" begins. With this prophetic background before us, let's now shift our focus to Revelation chapter 12:

Revelation chapter 12

[1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
[2] And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
[3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
[13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
[15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
[16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Here, we see the "dragon", the Devil or Satan (Revelation 12:9), "making war with the remnant of her", the "woman's" or Israel's, "seed which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 12:17). IOW, in the last days, Israel will enter into an end time agreement with the antichrist and the aforementioned Jewish temple will be rebuilt and the antichrist will ultimately "shew himself that he is God" (II Thessalonians 2:4) from within the same. There will be a "remnant" of believing Jews at this time who will flee from Judaea unto "a place prepared of God" and she, "the remnant", "shall be fed there a thousand two hundred and threescore days" or for 1260 days or for 3 1/2 years with a Biblical calendar consisting of 360 days a year. Yes, this 1260 days is the same exact timeframe as "a time, and times, and half a time" (Revelation 12:14) with "a time" equalling one year. IOW, "the great tribulation" will only be a 3 1/2 year timeframe and it will be triggered IN THE NATURAL REALM by the setting up of "the abomination which maketh desolate" and brought about IN THE SPIRITUAL REALM by the "war in heaven" between "Michael and his angels" and "the dragon and his angels" (Revelation 12:7). Yes, when such a "war" is waged in the heavenlies and Satan and his angels are cast down to this earth (Satan still has access to heaven as I type), THEN "the devil will come down to us, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time" (Revelation 12:12)...and that "short time" is the aforementioned 1260 days or the aforementioned "a time, and times, and half a time" or 3 1/2 years. Keep this in mind as we read the following from Jesus' Olivet discourse:

Matthew chapter 24

[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand):
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Again, "when we shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place" (Matthew 24:16) or when we shall see the antichrist "pollute the sanctuary of strength" or pollute the sanctuary of the coming rebuilt temple in Jerusalem "and take away the daily sacrifice, and place the abomination that maketh desolate" (Daniel 11:31), THEN we should also expect to see "them which be in Judaea flee into the mountians" (Matthew 24:16) or then we should expect to see "the remnant" of believing Jews in Judaea flee unto "a place prepared of God" where she, "the remnant", "shall be fed there a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Revelation 12:6) or for 1260 days or for "a time, and times, and half a time" (Revelation 12:14) or for 3 1/2 years with a Biblical calendar consisting of 360 days a year. Yes, this 3 1/2 year timeframe which begins IN THE NATURAL REALM when "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stands in the holy place" (Matthew 24:15) or this 3 1/2 year timeframe which begins IN THE SPIRITUAL REALM when Satan and his angels are cast down to earth and "the devil comes down to us, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time" (Revelation 12:12) coincides perfectly with the "shortened days" (Matthew 24:22) that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet discourse. IOW, seeing how Satan will be cast down to the earth and seeing how he will "come down to us, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time" (3 1/2 years), if God didn't limit the time of Satan's wrath to the same 3 1/2 year timeframe, then "there should no flesh be saved" or nobody would be spared from Satan's wrath. Anyhow, there is great correlation between Daniel chapter 12 and Revelation chapter 12 and also great correlation between those two chapters of the Bible and other portions of the Bible as well.

We don't get to set our own timelines.

What John wrote about in Revelation chapter 12 correlates directly to what Daniel had prophesied and it is YET FUTURE.

 

[Jeff_56]

re just the title. yes indeed, they even get to trick people into posting pictures of and using as avatars pictures of idols.

 

[sveinen]

demons be Burnt in hell.

 

[Joidevivre]

Lest we forget....

 

[nate7829]

I think it would be a good idea for everyone to put a reference (book, chapter, verse) when they say the Bible says something, so that we all can look it up and be edified.

The Bible is prophetic, and thus all things it mentions have not yet come to pass. For example, In Dan 9/24, Daniel is given a message from Gabriel that included a prophecy that it would encompass "to make an end of sin" among other things. If you look around, there is not an end to sin. You could argue that Christ paid the price on the cross, and thus conquered sin, but sin is still around, it has not come to an end. I state this only as proof, that not everything the Bible refers to has already happened, some things are yet future.

When Christ talked about seeing Satan fall from Heaven (Lk 10/17-20), the context is that of Christ telling the disciples that He has given them authority over "all the powers of the enemy"...but then He goes on to tell them NOT to focus on this, but rather to focus on the fact that they are saved (that their names are written in the book of life - see Re 20/11-15 for more on this).

It is Biblical that Satan is allowed into heaven. In the book of Job, Satan is before God's presence (see Job 1/6-12). Satan is labeled as "the accuser of the brethren", and it is not until the book of Revelation (prophetic) that Satan and his demons are thrown out of Heaven, cast down to earth. (Re 12/7-17)

Christ makes mention of what demons do when cast out, in an off-handed remark in reference to the generation that he was dealing with (see Lk 11/24-26, Mt 12/43-45).

The whole thrust of the Christian life though, should be to rejoice our names are written in the Book of Life, and that we have passed from death to life (Jn 5/24). We should not be seeking wars with demons, as if we're on a crusade to fight them, because Christ Himself said that's the wrong focus to have (Lk 10/17-20). At the same time, we have been given all the power over the enemy (Christ said we would do greater works than He did because He was going to the Father - see Jn 14/12, and thus would send the Holy Spirit - see Jn 14-16), so if we do come across people that have deomonic power in their lives, and they WANT to be set free, God can set them free - not everyone wants to be set free - see Mt 8/28-34)

In our own lives, Jn 15 should be the passage we hold onto, in regards to demonic oppression, because it says that Christ abides in us if we love Him, and we know we love Him by keeping his commands (which was to love one another as He loved us - look at 1 Jn as well). I know someone will now quote that we must obey the 10 commandments, to which I reply that Christ Himself said He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it (Mt 5/17) and that treating one another as we want them to treat us is the fulfillment of all the law and the prophets (Mt 7/12)

The bottom line of all this is that if we love Christ, we will obey His Word, and treasure His commands, because they give us life (see Ps 119 & Jn 15). If we have Christ abiding in us, Satan will not be abiding in us at the same time. If we are not obeying Christ's Word, then we are not remaining in Christ's love, and He is not abidng in us (this is plain from both Jn 15 and 1 Jn 1-3). So, the key is to treasure God's Word in our hearts and to remain in His love and thus abide in Him, and He in us (Ps 1/1-3, Jn 15, Ps 119). This is what our focus should be on, not on the specifics about demons.

Be blessed.