Departure From Oblivion!

[ember]

Does anybody know where I can find some hyssop and a lamb? I'm trying to prepare for passover. Thank God it's not until next year. I live in a subdivision so I need to prepare my neighbors to not turn me in for animal cruelty when the time comes.

please...are you serious?

 

[oldthennew]

Shoshanah,

we love the title of your THREAD....

to speak to KENNETH,

on the question did everything change at the CROSS??..the scripture speaks to us very plain
on this matter,
JOHN 10:35......and the scripture CANNOT be BROKEN.
anytime a teacher brings forth a DOCTRINE where one scripture annuls another, it is a
teaching of confusion....

as Christ says in MATT.24:35. --Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My Words will by no means
pass away.
which means, that His Words are ETERNAL...or, FOREVER..........................

as it is written,
My Words are Spirit and they are Life.'

it is written again,
Forever, Oh Lord, Your Word is settled in heaven.'
and again, it is written,

The entirety of Your Word is Truth, and every one of Your righteous Judgments endure for ever'.

and again,
Not ONE JOT or ONE TITTLE shall PASS from The LAW, till ALL be fulfilled...........

and what does ISAIAH say??,
The grass withers, the flower fades, but the Word of our God stands FOREVER.....

quoted in the NT by 1Peter 1:24-25. THIS IS CONNECTED DIRECTLY TO BEING 'BORN-AGAIN',,,,,,

ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD AND IS PROFIITABLE'.........................................................

and, what can we say more??? .Of Paul, for Paul says, I believe ALL THINGS WRITTEN -
in THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.....Christ says, 'One these two Commandments hang
ALL the Law and the Prophets and, the weightier matters of the Law are, MERCY, FAITH, and JUSTICE' -
in short,
IT IS ALL (((ONE))) BOOK - and though it has many authors, The Lord is behind it ALL.....
and there are NO 'contradiction in Scripture, only in man'...

 

[KennethC]

Adhering to the law in the spiritual sense is the correct why to follow those teachings. It's the carnal mind that is incapable of comprehending the original truth as intended. If the law is seen as only physical then we have fallen from grace, but if we desire grace by rejection of the law, we find ourselves as being lawless. Is this not a conundrum? Only the truth will make us free. John 8:32

Concerning the rejection of the 4 Gospels. Those people had determined the reason for teaching this was that the New Testament wasn't in effect until Jesus died. It stems from the original teaching that the Old testament doesn't belong in the New Testament. The correct phrase "Renewed Covenant" has been rejected by many doctrines for 100s of years, but it's the correct one.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (Hebrews 9:16-17)

Like I said before though it determines what laws or commandments you are speaking of, because Acts 15 is a clear passage that shows the 613 written ordinances of the Mosaic laws are not binding under the new covenant for believers.

Galatians were fooled back by false teaching to trying to adhere to those laws, and Apostle Paul tells them they have been bewitched and have fallen from grace and that Christ sacrifice is of no effect to them.

 

[just-me]

Yes it can be interesting as long as it stays away from debating about the Mosaic laws applying or not applying.

We have way to many threads on that already, but I do like the discussion of facing the truth that only part of God's truth is being taught in churches now days.

I see so many teachings of His grace but hardly in mention of the warnings the bible also gives, and usually the teachings on grace are a watered down broad teaching that places all that call Jesus Lord saved. But Jesus clearly says not all that call Him their Lord will receive eternal life.

How to apply God's teachings correctly is what we must learn. We are to trust is His word by faith. Romans 3:31

The first thing that all believers in Christ Jesus must come to reckon with is that nothing God has ever spoken is a thing of the past for He is perfect and eternal. If we cannot comprehend that, we are actually admitting that we cannot understand beyond our carnal thoughts, and that our mindset is not spiritual one, "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Romans 8:6-7)

Our choice then is to reject it, or to find the truth in it according to the gospel.

 

[Shoshanah]

Here is the thing though that gets overlooked and that is that the 613 written ordinances of the Mosaic law is what is being discussed by the Apostles in Acts 15, and if new believers (especially Gentile) are to follow those ordinances.

Where do you get that? I know it is a popular scripture to use in this way but we are not to snatch a verse we like out of scripture and use it to support our pet beliefs/doctrines without other supporting scripture. 1 John 5:3 says, "For loving God means obeying his commands. Moreover, his commands are not burdensome." If you look at that and Acts 15, it should explain that the overly burdensome regulations were the "extras" added by the Pharisees, not God's simple Word.

Acts 15:10, 19, and 28 they came to the agreement that no we do not have to follow those ordinances, and in verses 20, 29 they gave the only few that still apply; things offered to idols, from blood, things strangled, and from sexual immorality.

Still apply???? When did God delete some of His previously stated instructions other than the change in the priesthood? (Hebrews 7:12​)

This however is where people then get confused as well because then they use well what about the 10 Commandments ???

The 10 Commandments if you look at how the Jews applied them they were looked at as both written ordinances and also God's moral laws. The moral aspect still applies under the new covenant but the written ordinance form does not, meaning that if one breaks one of those commandments the punishment is no longer by the law but will be handle at judgment.

"The moral aspect still applies under the new covenant but the written ordinance form does not." Since when???

The written ordinance of the law brought death for sin because the flesh is weak, but the perfect law of liberty (salvation through Christ) brings eternal life.

The OT covenant Jews focused to much on the written ordinances of the Mosaic law, but the Lord showed us an easier way of instead of focusing on all those ordinances to obey. Instead walk in love, mercy, and forgiveness !!!

"Love, mercy, and forgiveness!!!" are found all throughout the Old Testament including in the "written ordinances of the Mosaic law" if one reads with and open heart what Yahweh wants us to know. Sad to say, we have become less able to discern such things, thanks to the adversary. Therefore, the majority of professing Christians can't comprehend the relationship of the Old Testament temple and its ordinances with how we are the temple now and all is still intact - only spiritually now, not physically as in killing a bullock and offering it on an altar.

If what one teaches does not fall under those three standards for all people then they are not operating in the Spirit.

Which spirit? Taking away part of "every word of God" leaves one susceptible to influence by the adversary and our own spirits, also known as human nature. Very serious stuff!

The Mosaic written ordinances taught an eye for eye, and a tooth for a tooth, and also part of that was blood for blood.
But Lord Jesus in the new covenant says no to this !!!

Do you not understand what this says? The oft quoted "eye for an eye" verses are referring to a limit established by God so that man with his vengeful human nature would not "overdo" just recompense to someone who had wronged him. Would man recognize fairness and just recompense without the law God gave? Not likely. Mercy is not an inborn trait of humans, whereas what we often call 'the law of the jungle' is innate.

Please forgive me if I appear to be rude. I certainly don't mean to be unkind. I do want to know how professing Christians think though so I can understand why it is so important for them to ignore God-given instructions presented to us for our benefit.

 

[just-me]

Like I said before though it determines what laws or commandments you are speaking of, because Acts 15 is a clear passage that shows the 613 written ordinances of the Mosaic laws are not binding under the new covenant for believers.

Galatians were fooled back by false teaching to trying to adhere to those laws, and Apostle Paul tells them they have been bewitched and have fallen from grace and that Christ sacrifice is of no effect to them.

Acts 15 describes something that the disciples couldn't even bear. Yet one of them wrote "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:3)

So the scripture you are sighting cannot be the same as God's commandants. They had to be something distorted by adding or subtracting from the original such as physical circumcision which is not actually the law of Moses.

 

[tanach]

please...are you serious?

I hope it was a Joke. Even Jewish People don't eat a lamb at Passover. Not since the temple was destroyed. They have a Lambs shinbone at the table to represent it. The Hyssop is somewhat redundant as it was used to smear Lambs blood on the door posts so no Lamb,no hyssop.

 

[just-me]

Does anybody know where I can find some hyssop and a lamb? I'm trying to prepare for passover. Thank God it's not until next year. I live in a subdivision so I need to prepare my neighbors to not turn me in for animal cruelty when the time comes.

please...are you serious?

Sorry no. Being facetious. You forgive me?

 

[Shoshanah]

yeah...I don't know....I guess I have been studying on my own for so many years now, I am missing the dearth of interest in the OT? However, I would think you must absolutely need to have a good knowledge of the OT in order to truly appreciate/understand the NT

I have always gravitated to teachers that seem to expound on the whole Bible rather than fragments



Kenneth...would you please point where this is being said? I don't mean tell me which people...I mean I am not sure how people would think Jesus words are OT? other than that the NT was not written yet, what would their theory on that be?

I'm not really of the OSAS camp...what I do not agree with, is that when or if you sin, you become somehow unsaved or that you can somehow live a sinless life...that is you stop sinning

anyway, I would appreciate knowing more about how people seem to think Jesus words do not apply

I must have grown up in a void somewhere because I keep hearing or reading teachings on this particular site that I have not come across before

thanks

I grew up Lutheran and didn't learn any of this in church but when I got bored with Bible study after several years of being a born again Christian, I started digging deeper and found amazing things. I definitely learned more on my own! Then I started telling others what I had learned and that is where I encountered the greatest opposition I have ever seen to the Word of God.

I totally agree with you about knowing the OT to understand the NT better and as far as learning more about those who think Jesus' words don't apply, I would say, "stay tuned" because I seem to have awakened some and I am pretty sure they will tell me about it. I have read old threads from before I joined and I did not find them to be a bashful group of people.

 

[KennethC]

KennethC;2258256There are such teachings going around such as that called the Paulinian gospel, and it teaches people that nothing the Lord taught or commanded applies to new covenant believers. It also does away with other books of the NT such and Hebrews, James, 1 John, and half of Revelation.

I guess I grew up simple and people have made simple complicated. I was taught, in a Brethern church, that everything Jesus said was important and also, how the OT is an integral part of the NT...actually, how can you really understand the NT without the OT? Maybe the gaps there lead people into believing what you are referring to?

It mainly teaches that only Paul's epistles are to be followed and instructs that Paul taught a different gospel then what Jesus taught.

huh...Paul must be in big time trouble then since he basically would have cursed himself regarding what he wrote about teaching 'another gospel' would be a case of 'with your own words'

As I said before these as well as others who are influenced in this doctrine or one's like it have said statements like;

a) What Jesus taught was done away with at the cross...........

b) The cross changed everything........

c) Jesus teachings were only for the Jews.........well that kind of sounds like something I heard in one of the more infamous threads lately, that tongues were only for the Jews and some kind of sign to them and then, apparently, there comes a whole other teaching I am not really familiar with involving something called 'client nations' and how Israel was a client nation (of God) but are no longer and some think the US is now God's client nation


I do not follow the doctrines of eternal security (started by Augustine in 4th century), OSAS (coined by Calvin in 1500's), or sinless perfection (started by John Wesley in the 1700's).

well good...IMO, that makes a discussion about these subjects far more doable...thanks...I had you pegged as someone who does believe those things...but after reading your posts in the already mentionned thread (which became a mob scene in which a couple of us were stoned...I got resurrected though lol!) I began to think I could be wrong...so..also, reading some of what seems to me hateful posts to you by the same people over and over, they could be wrong also


I have by the Holy Spirit's guidance found flaws in each one of those doctrines !!!

As for the falling away or departing from the faith in the Lord it is a sound biblical teaching, and even the Apostle Paul speaks on this more then anybody. Even in Acts 20:28-31 Apostle Paul states that he warned believers day and night for three years in tears about falling away to false teaching and not being spared at the end.

I agree...I just did not agree with the if you sin you are no longer saved and if you are saved you do not sin...and I thought you were saying that also

Galatians are another group that Paul said left the faith in the Lord to seek out justification by the Mosaic laws do to false teachers leading them astray. Paul tells them that Christ has become of no effect to them ( no remission of sins), and that they have fallen from God's grace. (Galatians 5:4)

Right. Having begun in the spirit, are you now going to continue in the flesh...right

You have to receive both in the faith of the Lord to be reconciled to God and receive eternal life.

ok...not sure how you mean the above sentence?

I get accused by one group OSASers/eternal security of being a sinless perfectionist, and then get accused by the sinless perfectionist of supporting sins as some of the OSASers do in their statements. Which is why I see where the confusion comes from because faulty accusations come from those of both crowds.

I do not believe if a believer sins they have lost their salvation, for if a person who has true faith in the Lord will confess that sin to receive forgiveness of it (1 John 1:9) and continue to walk in the light (1 John 1:7).

It is those who return to a life of willful deliberate sinning instead of following the Lord that will face judgment and the lake of fire as their soul will not be saved if they do not return to the Lord. James 5:19-20 shows a clear instructing on this !!!

Then yes here the whole walking in the flesh vs. walking in the Spirit debate that takes place, yet I have seen some on here who try and say you can continue to walk in both and receive eternal life. That is contradictory to what Paul taught, but they make it out to not be as they try to make Romans 7 a current standing in the faith that Paul always had.

Apostle Paul clearly says in Romans 7 he is carnal sold under sin, but in Romans 8 he shows he could not remain that way as it leads to eternal death.

As for my final sentence the faith in the Lord that puts us under God's grace is the ministry of reconciliation mentioned in 2 Corinthians 5:11-21. For our sins separate us from God and the only way to be reconciled is to receive remission of them from the Lord. The bible clearly shows how this is done and that is repenting of our sins, getting baptized, and continuing to walk in the faith by showing love, mercy, and forgiveness to others keeping our confession in Him.

If they do not have remission for their sins by the Lord and they are not under God's grace then eternal life is not the ending for those people.

 

[atwhatcost]

The entire Bible is the Word of God and, according to His own Words, important for all of us to live by. (Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4) There is serious departure from God’s instructions today and very lame excuses given by people for that departure, such as it's a bunch of boring rituals made obsolete by Christ's sacrifice on the cross and way too negative with all of the “thou shalt nots” in it. It is obvious by such a foolish statement that they do not even know the law.

For a long time I have wished that someone that Christians consider reputable would teach the importance of the entire Bible rather than the separation of the Old Testament from the New Testament, as being all that matters now. A scholar would be listened to much more so than an ordinary person, theoretically anyway, and because of that, could do so much to help 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century Christians understand more fully how the Bible is one big story, all parts intertwined with all of the other parts. (See 2 Peter 1:20). And now it is happening! A very reputable professor at Wheaton College is doing just that and I am so excited about it.

Could this be the “revival” I have heard so many say will happen just before the Lion of Judah returns?

Orthodox Messianic Judaism: Stop the Press! Mainline Christian Scholars Beginning to Promote the Torah of Moses
Daniel Block | Theopedia

I'm sorry to sash your hopes for a revival, but my denomination uses many students out of Wheaton College. Actually the last Teaching Elder of our church quit the job to be the President at Wheaton. My denomination has been preaching the whole word of God for centuries and still are.

So, no, that's not a sign a revival is coming. That's just you discovering some of us believe the whole of the Bible from the first to last word.

 

[just-me]

I grew up Lutheran and didn't learn any of this in church but when I got bored with Bible study after several years of being a born again Christian, I started digging deeper and found amazing things. I definitely learned more on my own! Then I started telling others what I had learned and that is where I encountered the greatest opposition I have ever seen to the Word of God.

I totally agree with you about knowing the OT to understand the NT better and as far as learning more about those who think Jesus' words don't apply, I would say, "stay tuned" because I seem to have awakened some and I am pretty sure they will tell me about it. I have read old threads from before I joined and I did not find them to be a bashful group of people.

I feel your pain. Not meaning to be flippant.

 

[ember]

Sorry no. Being facetious. You forgive me?

yeah ok but don't scare me like that again!

 

[ember]

As for my final sentence the faith in the Lord that puts us under God's grace is the ministry of reconciliation mentioned in 2 Corinthians 5:11-21. For our sins separate us from God and the only way to be reconciled is to receive remission of them from the Lord. The bible clearly shows how this is done and that is repenting of our sins, getting baptized, and continuing to walk in the faith by showing love, mercy, and forgiveness to others keeping our confession in Him.

If they do not have remission for their sins by the Lord and they are not under God's grace then eternal life is not the ending for those people.

OK...good...did not get what you were referring to...thanks and the rest of the explanation as well

 

[Patnubay]

That is what I mean when I say people don't know the law. The "law" as given by God is a physical picture of what we as believers in Christ spiritually are - well, should be - living. I am not suggesting we go back to performing the physical rituals of the law as the Levites were instructed, but we are the temple now and God did not nullify or "delete" anything from His magnificent plan which has been in existence since before Adam and Eve sinned. That is a common reaction to the uneducated pertaining to the "law" though - I have often been accused of wanting to be back "under" the law and supposedly want to kill sheep for blood sacrifices. It just doesn't apply! But I think I will continue to post some sensible explanations to enlighten those who desire to truly learn and don't automatically dismiss what they don't know anything about as being worthless.

It would be nice. Looking forward to your posts. Just a quick question though. If this "revival" happens, should we worry about the coming back of "guilt" and " feeling of condemnation". The law tends to make me feel that somehow. I follow the law but not because I follow the law. Following the law is actually the end result of what I do for Christ who saved me; when He fulfilled the law. You know what I mean?

 

[just-me]

I get accused by one group OSASers/eternal security of being a sinless perfectionist, and then get accused by the sinless perfectionist of supporting sins as some of the OSASers do in their statements. Which is why I see where the confusion comes from because faulty accusations come from those of both crowds.

I do not believe if a believer sins they have lost their salvation, for if a person who has true faith in the Lord will confess that sin to receive forgiveness of it (1 John 1:9) and continue to walk in the light (1 John 1:7).

It is those who return to a life of willful deliberate sinning instead of following the Lord that will face judgment and the lake of fire as their soul will not be saved if they do not return to the Lord. James 5:19-20 shows a clear instructing on this !!!

Then yes here the whole walking in the flesh vs. walking in the Spirit debate that takes place, yet I have seen some on here who try and say you can continue to walk in both and receive eternal life. That is contradictory to what Paul taught, but they make it out to not be as they try to make Romans 7 a current standing in the faith that Paul always had.

Apostle Paul clearly says in Romans 7 he is carnal sold under sin, but in Romans 8 he shows he could not remain that way as it leads to eternal death.

As for my final sentence the faith in the Lord that puts us under God's grace is the ministry of reconciliation mentioned in 2 Corinthians 5:11-21. For our sins separate us from God and the only way to be reconciled is to receive remission of them from the Lord. The bible clearly shows how this is done and that is repenting of our sins, getting baptized, and continuing to walk in the faith by showing love, mercy, and forgiveness to others keeping our confession in Him.

If they do not have remission for their sins by the Lord and they are not under God's grace then eternal life is not the ending for those people.

AMEN!!! If OSAS were true there would have not been the prophecy of what is known as the "falling away."

 

[ember]

I grew up Lutheran and didn't learn any of this in church but when I got bored with Bible study after several years of being a born again Christian, I started digging deeper and found amazing things. I definitely learned more on my own! Then I started telling others what I had learned and that is where I encountered the greatest opposition I have ever seen to the Word of God.

I totally agree with you about knowing the OT to understand the NT better and as far as learning more about those who think Jesus' words don't apply, I would say, "stay tuned" because I seem to have awakened some and I am pretty sure they will tell me about it. I have read old threads from before I joined and I did not find them to be a bashful group of people.

well, when I was born, my mother was Lutheran and my dad was brought up Catholic...I was baptized as an infant in the Lutheran church but things of course changed when my parents began attending the Brethern church...and I was baptized by choice in that church at 13 or 14? I think it was, after coming to faith in Jesus

oh my...tell me about opposition! it's almost like a conspiracy theory right here in the forums at times...

anyway, sometimes you just don't know who you are talking to and then if you say something contrary to what they may believe, WWIII erupts...this works in church too LOL!

 

[ember]

AMEN!!! If OSAS were true there would have not been the prophecy of what is known as the "falling away."

how about Jesus warning many times about deception?

"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect."
Matt. 24:24

I read something interesting the other day, wherein some scholars are thinking that Jesus was not actually referring to false Christs in the sense that the person would claim to be Christ, but was actually meaning a false gospel such as the kind Paul referred to and to me, this makes more sense

alot to think about

 

[ember]

SHOSHANA...with reference to your closing sentences in your op:

Could this be the “revival” I have heard so many say will happen just before the Lion of Judah returns?

I've heard plenty concerning awakenings...revivals...etc but have yet to 'see' one

I am of the belief that we may see a big falling away instead?

 

[KennethC]

Where do you get that? I know it is a popular scripture to use in this way but we are not to snatch a verse we like out of scripture and use it to support our pet beliefs/doctrines without other supporting scripture. 1 John 5:3 says, "For loving God means obeying his commands. Moreover, his commands are not burdensome." If you look at that and Acts 15, it should explain that the overly burdensome regulations were the "extras" added by the Pharisees, not God's simple Word.



Still apply???? When did God delete some of His previously stated instructions other than the change in the priesthood? (Hebrews 7:12​)



"The moral aspect still applies under the new covenant but the written ordinance form does not." Since when???




"Love, mercy, and forgiveness!!!" are found all throughout the Old Testament including in the "written ordinances of the Mosaic law" if one reads with and open heart what Yahweh wants us to know. Sad to say, we have become less able to discern such things, thanks to the adversary. Therefore, the majority of professing Christians can't comprehend the relationship of the Old Testament temple and its ordinances with how we are the temple now and all is still intact - only spiritually now, not physically as in killing a bullock and offering it on an altar.



Which spirit? Taking away part of "every word of God" leaves one susceptible to influence by the adversary and our own spirits, also known as human nature. Very serious stuff!



Do you not understand what this says? The oft quoted "eye for an eye" verses are referring to a limit established by God so that man with his vengeful human nature would not "overdo" just recompense to someone who had wronged him. Would man recognize fairness and just recompense without the law God gave? Not likely. Mercy is not an inborn trait of humans, whereas what we often call 'the law of the jungle' is innate.

Please forgive me if I appear to be rude. I certainly don't mean to be unkind. I do want to know how professing Christians think though so I can understand why it is so important for them to ignore God-given instructions presented to us for our benefit.

Acts 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts 15:24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Acts 15:10
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The written ordinances of the Mosaic laws are called a yoke of bondage by Apostle Paul in Galatians 5:1.

Also in that same passage above in Acts 15:28 it says the Holy Spirit approved of this change of what ordinances still apply, and the Holy Spirit is of God so if He approves then God approves.

Love, mercy, and forgiveness is found in the OT but the Jews, especially that of the Pharisees who were the law givers focused only on the written ordinances and ignored those finer aspects of the law.

Does stoning people to death for breaking a command fall under love, mercy, or forgiveness ???

Does eye for eye, tooth for a tooth still apply ??? Matthew 5:38-39 says no...........

The standards we are told to walk by in the new covenant by the Lord is love, mercy, and forgiveness of all people.
If the spirit that is leading a person is telling them things that do not fall under those categories then it is not the Holy Spirit.

It is not ignoring God given instructions as you think as the Lord made changes from the old covenant to the new covenant, and the standard by which we are to follow in the new covenant is not focusing on written ordinances to obey. There are other scriptures such as Colossians 2:14 that shows those written ordinances were blotted out.