DEPRAVITY OF MAN

[tribesman]

... I can not absolutly tell who are of the elect...so I don't think that it is a good idea to try and distinguish absolutly who the elect are.

Do you know if you are among the elect? How do you have assurance that you are eternally saved?

 

[Forest]

Do you know if you are among the elect? How do you have assurance that you are eternally saved?

God quickens all of his elect, after they have been born into this world, once you have been quickened, you have evidences that you are an elect child of God. God does not quicken those that are not of his elect. If a description of yourself fits the description of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14, you are not one of his elect. The natural man does not have the fruits of the Spirit.

 

[Forest]

You assume most wrongly that faith always must mean a work, or that faith would be conditional in God's giving of salvation to man. Which comes from the grave error eternal justifcaion advocates have in denying that justification, which means being declared righteous based on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone, occurs at the time a person is regenerated and as such is caused to believe the gospel. This is how God imputes and imparts salvation to the elect. From scripture it is clear that all justified persons are regenerate, there are no unregenerate persons who are justified.

All of the elect were declared righteous by Christ's work on the cross. After Christ was sacrificed on the cross, God looked upon his elect as Holy and without blame, and all of the elect were eternally secured by Christ's crucifiction.

 

[Forest]

No, I do not believe that. However, I do believe that there is great change taking place in the elect when he is regenerated. He has now a new nature, that albeit constantly struggles with his old man/flesh yet produces some fruit that he did not have prior to his regeneration. One example of this fruit is that he now believes the gospel, conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone, and that he now, by this knowledge, denounces and detest any false gospel, conditioned on the sinner.

He will also know that before he believed the gospel he was not regenerate and that all who do not believe the gospel are unregenerate. As such, neither he nor them that did or do not believe the gospel were/are not justified. He will discern that anyone who is ignorant about the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, is unregenerate and not justified. He will know that anyone dying in this ignorance showed indication of being eternally lost.

What do you think Christ actually accomplished by his work on the cross? I believe that John 6:37-41 tells us that he actually eternally saved all of those that God gave him (his elect) and he will not lose one of them, without any further action on man's part.

 

[shroom2]

What do you think Christ actually accomplished by his work on the cross? I believe that John 6:37-41 tells us that he actually eternally saved all of those that God gave him (his elect) and he will not lose one of them, without any further action on man's part.

Christ's offering his life paid the price for the sins of all mankind, making it available for any man who chooses to become saved.

 

[tribesman]

What do you think Christ actually accomplished by his work on the cross?....

Again, asked and answered. This question you have asked me several times, and I have answered it, several times. My view on this can be found in this and other threads. Why do you keep asking the same questions again and again?

 

[tribesman]

All of the elect were declared righteous by Christ's work on the cross. After Christ was sacrificed on the cross, God looked upon his elect as Holy and without blame, and all of the elect were eternally secured by Christ's crucifiction.

While it is true that the basis for the justification of the elect indeed is Christ's work on the cross, it is unscriptural to claim that the elect were justified prior to their regeneration.

 

[tribesman]

God quickens all of his elect, after they have been born into this world, once you have been quickened, you have evidences that you are an elect child of God. God does not quicken those that are not of his elect. If a description of yourself fits the description of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14, you are not one of his elect. The natural man does not have the fruits of the Spirit.

Yes, regeneration/quickening preceeds faith, which is a fruit of same, and it also is how justification is applied to the elect. Do you believe that the Spirit through regeneration causes all the elect to believe the gospel, wherein salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone? From your posts I gather that you believe that the regenerate elect can be ignorant about the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel. This must mean then that you believe that an elect can believe in a false gospel, and yet be regenerate. Compare this to your statements of the regenerate having the fruit of the Spirit and it makes no sense.

From the eternal justification point of view I also wonder how it can make sense to say that all of the elect comes to faith in Christ, if such faith in itself is not indicative of being saved and unbelief is not indicative of being lost. I mean, if you are righteous/justified without personal faith, what good is such a faith to give evidence that you are an elect and what does such faith include? Is believing a false gospel, where salvation is conditioned on the work of the sinner, a sign of regeneration? An interest in biblical issues is enough? A "zeal of God", but no knowledge of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, is yet a sign of regeneration? It makes no sense.

 

[tribesman]

Regenerates believes the gospel, where salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone. While unregenerates believes false gospels, such that say that salvation is conditioned on the work of the sinner, which is no gospel at all.

Gal.5:22 says that faith is a fruit of the Spirit, which must mean believing the truth. This fruit of the Spirit must of course include believing the gospel.where salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone. Obviously, only regenerated souls have any fruit of the Spirit. And any unregenerate soul has no fruit of the Spirit, rather he manifests works of the flesh.

Gal.5:20 says that one of the works of the flesh is heresies, which must mean believing lies. This work of the flesh must of course include believing a false gospel, where salvation is conditiioned on the work of the sinner. No such persons, that believe false gospels and manifest works of the flesh, can be regenerate. Let us agree with Paul's judgment that those who are ignorant of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, are unregenerate.

 

[Forest]

Again, asked and answered. This question you have asked me several times, and I have answered it, several times. My view on this can be found in this and other threads. Why do you keep asking the same questions again and again?

Because that Christ did in fact justify all of the elect by his work upon the cross. When upon the cross, Christ said "it is finished" meaning that all of his work that his Father called him to do was finished.

 

[Forest]

While it is true that the basis for the justification of the elect indeed is Christ's work on the cross, it is unscriptural to claim that the elect were justified prior to their regeneration.

Just because you misinterpret the scriptures does not prove you right.Gal 2:16.

 

[shroom2]

Because that Christ did in fact justify all of the elect by his work upon the cross. When upon the cross, Christ said "it is finished" meaning that all of his work that his Father called him to do was finished.

Yes. He lived a sinless life and then gave his life as payment for the sins of the world. Because of the finished work of Christ, any man who chooses can be saved.

 

[ChildrenofNoah]

But the natural man has no desire to choose to believe, it is foolishness unto him. The natural man will stay that way unless God interviens with quickening him to a spiritual life, while he is still spiritually dead Eph 2:1-5.

Does this statement not hold the inner hope of many christians that despite the many sins of those NOT in Christ that maybe God will intervene on behalf of the natural man - for surely there is no other hope for those that die choosing their whole life to believe God's wisdom and disclosed truth as foolishness.

 

[Forest]

Yes, regeneration/quickening preceeds faith, which is a fruit of same, and it also is how justification is applied to the elect. Do you believe that the Spirit through regeneration causes all the elect to believe the gospel, wherein salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone? From your posts I gather that you believe that the regenerate elect can be ignorant about the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel. This must mean then that you believe that an elect can believe in a false gospel, and yet be regenerate. Compare this to your statements of the regenerate having the fruit of the Spirit and it makes no sense.

From the eternal justification point of view I also wonder how it can make sense to say that all of the elect comes to faith in Christ, if such faith in itself is not indicative of being saved and unbelief is not indicative of being lost. I mean, if you are righteous/justified without personal faith, what good is such a faith to give evidence that you are an elect and what does such faith include? Is believing a false gospel, where salvation is conditioned on the work of the sinner, a sign of regeneration? An interest in biblical issues is enough? A "zeal of God", but no knowledge of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, is yet a sign of regeneration? It makes no sense.

Does it make sense that all of the people on this forum are in dissagrement of what the truth is and that none of them have been regenerated? Only a few of the elect have been revealed the truth of Christ's doctrine. Matt 7:13-14, The elect go in both of these gates. Those that go in the wide gate are those (like most on this forum) who are believing upon their own works of righteousness to gain eternal salvation and the ones going in the strait gate are the few that have been revealed the truth of Christ's doctrine. The life that the narrow way leads to is not eternal life, but an aboundant life here in this world. This life is the same as the "rest" found in other scriptures. All of the elect going into both of these gates have eternal life.

 

[Crossfire]

Regenerates believes the gospel, where salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone. While unregenerates believes false gospels, such that say that salvation is conditioned on the work of the sinner, which is no gospel at all.

Gal.5:22 says that faith is a fruit of the Spirit, which must mean believing the truth. This fruit of the Spirit must of course include believing the gospel.where salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone. Obviously, only regenerated souls have any fruit of the Spirit. And any unregenerate soul has no fruit of the Spirit, rather he manifests works of the flesh.

Gal.5:20 says that one of the works of the flesh is heresies, which must mean believing lies. This work of the flesh must of course include believing a false gospel, where salvation is conditiioned on the work of the sinner. No such persons, that believe false gospels and manifest works of the flesh, can be regenerate. Let us agree with Paul's judgment that those who are ignorant of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, are unregenerate.

Like the avatar! It's from the old movie about John Wycliffe right?

 

[tribesman]

Just because you misinterpret the scriptures does not prove you right.Gal 2:16.

The misinterpretation comes from you. And your never ending repeating of the same thing over and over again does not prove you right. I will have to warn you for your spamming. Stop spamming, communicate normally.

 

[tribesman]

Like the avatar! It's from the old movie about John Wycliffe right?

Nope, it's an aged Jean!

 

[tribesman]

Does it make sense that all of the people on this forum are in dissagrement of what the truth is and that none of them have been regenerated? Only a few of the elect have been revealed the truth of Christ's doctrine. Matt 7:13-14, The elect go in both of these gates. Those that go in the wide gate are those (like most on this forum) who are believing upon their own works of righteousness to gain eternal salvation and the ones going in the strait gate are the few that have been revealed the truth of Christ's doctrine. The life that the narrow way leads to is not eternal life, but an aboundant life here in this world. This life is the same as the "rest" found in other scriptures. All of the elect going into both of these gates have eternal life.

Your belief that the destruction spoken of in Matt.7.13-14 deals with "elect" people who receives merely a "timely" destruction is very odd, mildly put. Maybe you mean the crowd in verses 21-23, those who never knew the Lord, are also the "elect"? Can you name any persons/groups who believed and taught this before your version of PBs came up on the scene? Who were they? Where are they found? *sighs*

 

[Forest]

Regenerates believes the gospel, where salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone. While unregenerates believes false gospels, such that say that salvation is conditioned on the work of the sinner, which is no gospel at all.

Gal.5:22 says that faith is a fruit of the Spirit, which must mean believing the truth. This fruit of the Spirit must of course include believing the gospel.where salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone. Obviously, only regenerated souls have any fruit of the Spirit. And any unregenerate soul has no fruit of the Spirit, rather he manifests works of the flesh.

Gal.5:20 says that one of the works of the flesh is heresies, which must mean believing lies. This work of the flesh must of course include believing a false gospel, where salvation is conditiioned on the work of the sinner. No such persons, that believe false gospels and manifest works of the flesh, can be regenerate. Let us agree with Paul's judgment that those who are ignorant of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, are unregenerate.

Again, you are not understanding the depravity of man, both unregenerate and regenerate. I am a regenerated person myself and I know that I, at times, do some terriable injustices toward God, of which I become convicted of and repent, so I believe that there are some regenerated persons who do commit adultry and lust after the things of this world, but they are still the elect of God, just disobedient children of God. Thats why it is necessary that God chastens those that he loves. Paul's judgement of such persons is not that they will not inherit Heaven, but not inherit "the kingdom of God". The kingdom of God is the church that Christ set up. The kingdom of God, the church is existing here in this world sense Christ's days and he is reighing as husband and king of it. I believe that there will be some rich men who go to heaven, but in Matt19:24, He says that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the "kingdom of God",the church. Mark 1:15, The kingdom of God, the church, is at hand. Mark 9:1, There be some of them that stan here, which will not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

 

[Forest]

Yes. He lived a sinless life and then gave his life as payment for the sins of the world. Because of the finished work of Christ, any man who chooses can be saved.

But if man has to choose then it wasen't finished.