Descended from Israel vs Belonging to Israel

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In other words we are supposed to be servants to the jews because of an unproven bloodline.
And this is all ordained by God even though they dont really believe in him
.....yeah OK

Just my personal opinion... but I believe that on the Day of Judgment that we are all equal before God and not given a free pass simply because of the body we once held or whether or not we wore a funny hat on a certain day....but what would I know...?
 
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:24
 
Sadly you cannot see God's hand at work. He will use any method he chooses to fulfil the biblical prophecies.

You are led of your rationale mind, as are those who you have followed in belief.
 
michael56 said:
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:24
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And then when we are all brought in, He Comes! Amen! On the Day when the last is brought in, then it can finally be said that all of Israel has been saved!
 
michael56 said:
Sadly you cannot see God's hand at work. He will use any method he chooses to fulfil the biblical prophecies.

You are led of your rationale mind, as are those who you have followed in belief.
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I donot see Gods' hand at work but I see Ha-Shaitans' hand at work by pre-empting prophecy.
Oh well.... he had to get lucky sometime...
 
michael56 said:
Sadly you cannot see God's hand at work. He will use any method he chooses to fulfil the biblical prophecies.

You are led of your rationale mind, as are those who you have followed in belief.
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That is a very hypocritical remark. He uses any method He chooses, and chose inclusion.

Not once have you countered how the Oneness of Salvation, and our inclusion, and our position within Christ breaks the physical bonds and the dividing walls of race.

You can keep your physically minded Letter interpretation, but I will rebuke you all the way. It is a Promise given to you through Christ, and foolish to reject it.

Btw, your thought that I am following other teachers, other than Christ, has no basis. You obviously follow dispensationalism, and then project such "following" upon me? Name my leader, as I can name several of yours.
 
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When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, [SUP]2 [/SUP]and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, [SUP]3 [/SUP]then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[SUP][a][/SUP] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens,from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. [SUP]5 [/SUP]He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lordwill again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, [SUP]10 [/SUP]if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul Deut 30:1-10

I know, Moses wasn't just talking to Jews, but to us all!!!!
 
michael56 said:
When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations,[SUP]2 [/SUP]and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today,[SUP]3 [/SUP]then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[SUP][a][/SUP] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.[SUP]4 [/SUP]Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens,from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back.[SUP]5 [/SUP]He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.[SUP]6 [/SUP]The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.[SUP]7 [/SUP]The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you.[SUP]8 [/SUP]You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today.[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lordwill again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors,[SUP]10 [/SUP]if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul Deut 30:1-10

I know, Moses wasn't just talking to Jews, but to us all!!!!
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Amen! And praise God.
 
I do believe in a genetic descendant revival unto salvation of tribal Israelites during the Last Days, but we disagree on their connection to modern day "Israel".
We also seem to disagree about certain promises and prophecies: you seeing them as specific to a race, and me seeing them as specific to the Kingdom.

So for a moment at least, let us digress from the doctrinal, and pursue the practical.
Due to our disagreements, it would be wise for us to first agree in Christ, before discussing such matters any further.
Care to pm, so we can have prayer for each other in a non-debate setting? I know online is rather impersonal... it it can still be relational, and can build us up.
 
Through the words of Jeremiah, to whom did God give this promise to?

Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord.33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”



It was to Israel and Judah, and yet we claim these for the Church, and even Gentiles.
Paul verifies this several times:

1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

2 Corinthians 3:4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16 But when one[c] turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord[d] is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,[e] are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.


And the writer of Hebrews affirms this 3 more times.

If this prophecy is fulfilled in the Church, how can we separate the Church from Judah and Israel?
Continuity is clear.
 
SolidGround said:
Through the words of Jeremiah, to whom did God give this promise to?

Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord.33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”



It was to Israel and Judah, and yet we claim these for the Church, and even Gentiles.
Paul verifies this several times:

1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

2 Corinthians 3:4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16 But when one[c] turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord[d] is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,[e] are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.


And the writer of Hebrews affirms this 3 more times.

If this prophecy is fulfilled in the Church, how can we separate the Church from Judah and Israel?
Continuity is clear.
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for sure your quote from Jeremiah is the new covenant. Gentiles are grafted into it. At the moment only a remnant of Israelites accept it, but one day coming they all will, for they will all know the Lord from the least to the greatest of them as scripture says. If you don't differentiate between Jews and Gentiles, would you believe the whole earth(all non Jews) will also be saved?
 
Sophia said:
I do believe in a genetic descendant revival unto salvation of tribal Israelites during the Last Days, but we disagree on their connection to modern day "Israel".
We also seem to disagree about certain promises and prophecies: you seeing them as specific to a race, and me seeing them as specific to the Kingdom.

So for a moment at least, let us digress from the doctrinal, and pursue the practical.
Due to our disagreements, it would be wise for us to first agree in Christ, before discussing such matters any further.
Care to pm, so we can have prayer for each other in a non-debate setting? I know online is rather impersonal... it it can still be relational, and can build us up.
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Yes, I am happy to pm you, this subject is not a salvational matter for us is it, just a topic of interest. As long as we agree on what must be done to become saved that is the important issue isn't it
God Bless
 
Sharing prayer requests like that was a real encouragement.
Now I feel confident that we are on the same team :)
So now we can debate team strategy! Lol
 
michael56 said:
for sure your quote from Jeremiah is the new covenant. Gentiles are grafted into it. At the moment only a remnant of Israelites accept it, but one day coming they all will, for they will all know the Lord from the least to the greatest of them as scripture says. If you don't differentiate between Jews and Gentiles, would you believe the whole earth(all non Jews) will also be saved?
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The issue is the definition of "Jew" in accordance to how Jesus and Paul and Peter and John define it.
It is not that all physical Jews will be saved, but that all who are saved are considered Jews.
Those who are not saved are "cut off" and are no longer Jews (even of they still call themselves such).
Those who ARE saved, both of Hebrew or Gentile descent, are grafted into Israel and called true Jews.

Basically, in God's sight, there are no Israelites that are not saved, because He cuts off all the unsaved from Israel.
There are none who are saved who are outside of Israel, because all who are saved are brought in.
 
Sophia said:
Being a part of Israel is not about genetics:

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but“Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Being part of Israel is not about certain ceremonies or works:

11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—

Being part of Israel is not about assimilating with a certain culture:

24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Being part of Israel is not about physical birth, but spiritual birth:

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel[c] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Being part of Israel is not about pursuing the Law as religious works, but about having faith:

31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law.32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.



Being part of Israel is by being grafted into the Vine, which is Christ.

10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
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Well, I guess that meet up is now, for a second??

By the lack of engagement here, I'm glad to see most do not agree with this .

They may not agree with me.....but I am not about to go starting threads on what most would call "terrible guesswork".
Where do you get this stuff Sophia??

You have hand picked certain verses, and without any adjacent/surrounding scripture, presented to us, that we are all from "Israel"...and are a part of the remnant, I'm guessing?

SO out of context.
You should stop, really...you should.
 
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