Describe OSAS in terms of this passage.....

[Chris1975]

And so we see also, Acts 9,

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for this man is My vessel of choice to carry My name before the Gentiles, and also kings, and the sons of Israel. 16 For I will show to him how much it behooves him to suffer for My name.”

[which at this link, shows to be IN RED : https://biblehub.com/blb/acts/9.htm ]




see also Acts 13 -

46 And Paul and Barnabas, having spoken boldly, said, “It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you. But since you thrust it away and do not judge yourselves worthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For thus the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you for a light of the Gentiles,

you to be for salvation to the uttermost part of the earth.’e”

I don't think we disagree on this post, unless I am misreading something. My bottom line is that Jesus' words in the Gospels are just as applicable to us Gentiles.

Would, for example his words such as (paraphrased) "Love God is the greatest commandment, and the second, love your neighbour as yourself" - these two great commandments are not just for Israel and the Jews. They are very much for the Gentiles. In Ephesians 2, Paul states that there is no longer distinction between the two.

Ephesians 2
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Christ Our Peace
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Christ Our Cornerstone
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I don't think we disagree on this post, unless I am misreading something.

Well, yes and no.

For example, in your passage, "16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through [/by means of] the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity" speaks of the "13 BUT NOW *IN* Christ Jesus" part (wherein there is NO DISTINCTION, in our standing before God *IN CHRIST* [that is, IN THE NOW]);

however, where you and I might have some disagreement is, that I believe Ephesians 1:10 is NOT speaking of "the here and NOW" (like Eph2 is [*IN Christ* / "IN ONE BODY"]), but is speaking of a "[yet] future time period," where it says, "for the administration of the fullness of the times, to bring together all things in Christ--the things in the heavens *and* the things upon the earth" (so that, until that MK age, or BY the end of it, at least, there remains somewhat of a "distinction" in those that "ARE Christ's" [like OT saints and Trib saints, both Jew and Gentile... brought together with "the ONE BODY [(who is) "in this present age [singular]"; Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)] to all be, in THAT FUTURE age, brought together [all things (in the heavens and upon the earth)] in Christ, as it says here in Eph1:10 (which is not speaking of the NOW, like Eph2:13,16 is).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So THIS ^ gets into the SEQUENTIAL / CHRONOLOGY issues...

here's a post I made (in the context of a DIFFERENT convo, mind you, but that presents the issues of "CHRONOLOGY" and how I believe they are often overlooked [in the same way that those in Acts 3 that Peter was addressing (v.12) had "overlooked" the "Suffering Servant" aspects of the OT prophecies, thus THEMSELVES having a hand in fulfilling those very things (His rejection and death on the Cross)]):

[quoting that post]

^ this SEQUENCE I am pointing out ^ , is also reflected in the Matthew 22:7-8 verses, with verse 7 speaking of the 70ad events (see Lk21:23,20, and Lk19:41-44, etc) "But when king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, AND BURNED UP THEIR CITY," then with verse 8 going on to speak of the "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" (that necessarily takes place AFTER the 70ad events [just named in v.7!]; and which I believe correlates with [the LATER 95ad] Revelation 1:1's wording "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3] things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" [not things which will unfold over the course of some 2000 years, and not "immediateLY/quickLY/soon [adverbs]"], and which 'future things' [comp.1:1 to 4:1/1:19c] lead up to His Second coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, i.e. chpts 6-19, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" future, specific/limited time period leading up to the earthly MK age which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19).


Matthew 22:7 and verse 8 is providing a SEQUENCE that DEMONSTRATES that whatever the "THEN SAITH HE" was, it HAD TO HAVE been "SAID" AFTER the events of v.7/70ad-events (95ad qualifies, here, and the "servants," at the very least, are shown to be the ones named in 7:3 and its surrounding context [which are "far-future" and have not yet been in existence in time/history, but WILL be (and I believe "FUTURE" to our Rapture, based on biblical study of this overall Subject)]).

[end quoting]


[note: I believe "the Last Day" speaks of the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9, and the "in the third day" of Hosea 5:15-6:3, aka the MK age (the 7th Millennium), rather than a 24-hr day]

 

[Chris1975]

Well, yes and no.

For example, in your passage, "16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through [/by means of] the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity" speaks of the "13 BUT NOW *IN* Christ Jesus" part (wherein there is NO DISTINCTION, in our standing before God *IN CHRIST* [that is, IN THE NOW]);

however, where you and I might have some disagreement is, that I believe Ephesians 1:10 is NOT speaking of "the here and NOW" (like Eph2 is [*IN Christ* / "IN ONE BODY"]), but is speaking of a "[yet] future time period," where it says, "for the administration of the fullness of the times, to bring together all things in Christ--the things in the heavens *and* the things upon the earth" (so that, until that MK age, or BY the end of it, at least, there remains somewhat of a "distinction" in those that "ARE Christ's" [like OT saints and Trib saints, both Jew and Gentile... brought together with "the ONE BODY [(who is) "in this present age [singular]"; Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)] to all be, in THAT FUTURE age, brought together [all things (in the heavens and upon the earth)] in Christ, as it says here in Eph1:10 (which is not speaking of the NOW, like Eph2:13,16 is).

I get what you are trying to say, and I agree. In the book of Revelation we see a clear distinction (from Ch6 onwards to Glory where God is once again specifically dealing with Israel). This coincides with the end of the Church Age (Rapture of the Saints has happened), The time of the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and Israel has been provoked to jealousy by the removal of the church (The first will be last and the last first). So no issue with your distinctions on that front, I actually agree fully.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I get what you are trying to say, and I agree. In the book of Revelation we see a clear distinction (from Ch6 onwards to Glory where God is once again specifically dealing with Israel). This coincides with the end of the Church Age (Rapture of the Saints has happened), The time of the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and Israel has been provoked to jealousy by the removal of the church (The first will be last and the last first). So no issue with your distinctions on that front, I actually agree fully.

Okay, yes, then we are indeed finding some agreement. Amen.


In the next post I made, at the end of it, I had put:

"[note: I believe "the Last Day" speaks of the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9, and the "in the third day" of Hosea 5:15-6:3, aka the MK age (the 7th Millennium), rather than a 24-hr day]"


So this ^ factors into the "chronology" issues, along with the post you say you are in agreement with.


[all the passages which say, "IN/AT THE LAST DAY" (not a singular 24-hr day, merely); for example, John 6:39-40 has v.39 speaking of "THINGS" ("all THAT"--like His "governance/rule" and so forth); whereas v.40 is speaking of "WHO"/persons]

 

[Chris1975]

I guess the reason it went in this direction is that one of the earlier posters had indicated that the Red Letter Words of Jesus were not applicable to Christians. And this would be a silly proposition to make. For example, which of the Beatitudes are not applicable to us? Do we throw out the sermon on the mount as only being applicable to Israel, and not the Christian? Why would the Christian get a "free pass" on holy living? No - our consciences witness that if this applies to Israel, it also applies to Christians. Love the Lord your God as the first and greatest commandment (applicable to both Israel and the Christian Church). Likewise with Love your neighbour. Forgive seventy times seven, Do not look upon a woman to lust after her...etc etc.

Anybody rejecting Jesus words in these matters is truly skating on thin ice. He didn't merely come and establish all of these teachings just to flush them all down the toilet upon His crucifixion.

The bible says that Jesus is the gate, the door, and we are to enter the kingdom through him. No other way. A thief tries to enter in a different way.

Yet it is not about including the Gentiles in the Covenant God made with Israel, the Covenant and the Law given on Sinai. We are actually in covenant through Abraham. Both Jew and Gentile are linked at this point. Paul in Romans goes into great detail explaining how we are included in the Abrahamic covenant through Faith.

Abraham wasnt a Jew

 

[John146]

Was Peter a believer? Yes.

Just curious...what did Peter believe at the tim

I do learn plenty from Hebrews, just as I do from James.

You very well know most people on here are not dispensationalists. They try to force all doctrines upon the Church. This is the major cause of works salvation or works proving salvation and one losing salvation.

 

[PennEd]

The picture illustrates God's total forgiveness when dealing with our sins at the cross. Our debt has been paid in full by Jesus. In Matthew 18:28, where the same servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant such a small debt of a hundred denarii is presented as a repulsive hypothetical situation. As unbelievable as this action would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a genuine born again Christian, who has been forgiven such a huge debt, to be unforgiving of others with such a small debt. Notice that this "unforgiving servant" is called a "wicked" servant because no genuine born again Christian would have such an unforgiving heart. A Christian’s forgiveness of others is based on an understanding that we have been forgiven by God. Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we do not have humble and repentant hearts, which reveals the condition of our hearts by the way we treat others. Hearts that are humble and have received God’s grace forgive others from a heart that is saved, but proud and vengeful hearts which do not forgive in such small matters reveal a heart that is unsaved and does not receive God's forgiveness.

Those who are unforgiving from the heart in such small matters show they are unfit to receive God’s forgiveness. Failure to forgive in such a small matter shows that this person has not fully embraced God’s grace and forgiveness, hence the term, "wicked servant," which is not descriptive of a genuine believer. The fact that this person is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean they were saved. The children of Israel were referred to as "the Lord’s servants," but they were not all saved. In Leviticus 25:55, we read - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. In Isaiah 43:10, we read - You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servant, whom I have chosen.. Obviously, Peter did not have an unforgiving heart, which demonstrates he was a true believer, so there is nothing to reconsider about the OSAS doctrine. The real question is, "are we truly saved to begin with." If we are, then we will demonstrate it by our actions.

To the OP, here is the answer to your question. Dan has given the correct rendering of this passage.

 

[garee]

Matthew 18
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

• So let’s try get everybody on the same page. Can we all agree that Peter is a believer?
• Can we agree that Peter is included in the Kingdom of God (because he is a believer)
• Can we all agree that what Jesus answers next, as well as in the parable that follows, is the Lord’s response to a question by a believer, as to how often he (Peter) should forgive?
• Jesus answers him and says seventy times seven. So basically unending. Continue to forgive.

Assuming we are on the same page up to this point, let’s go further and into the parable that follows.

• We have a King and a Kingdom. This can be seen in parable terms as Jesus and His Kingdom
• We have a subject of the kingdom (a servant) who owed the king a huge debt (v23). In parable terms we as his subjects had a huge debt (sin)
• The subject pleaded for the Kings mercy (prayer, repentance, faith) (v26)
• The loving King has mercy and compassion, and wiped clean the debt (v27). In parable terms this is the Lord forgiving our sins. This is included in the Lord’s Grace.
• Can we agree up to this point that the only those who have come to Christ, and pleaded for mercy have received the Lords grace, and the forgiveness of sins. I am not aware of the unbelievers sin being washed clean, only the believers sin. It’s no use saying this servant is “not really” a servant or subject of the king. Because he truly has had his debt wiped clean.
• In parable terms, the servant is already in the kingdom, and the servant has had his sins washed clean.

So far so good. Let’s not forget that Jesus is still answering Peter’s question (Peter being a servant of the King in the kingdom)

• Now we see that same servant whose debt was cleared, go out and demand that another fellowservant pay him an even smaller amount owed to him, and when he could not, was thrown into prison. In parable terms, this is exactly the same as a Christian who has had such great sins forgiven by the Lord, but yet unwilling to extend the same mercy, forgiveness and grace to a fellow servant.
• And we see the end result of what that got this servant. Once the King hear about what happened, he REINSTATED the debt that was due on the first servant. What was forgiven, WAS NO LONGER FORGIVEN.
• And we end off with the last verse, verse 35, which states the following: 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

So lets bring this back to OSAS doctrine, and whether this holds water. We can see from the above that this entire answer is in in direct relation to the question of a believer (Peter). And verse 35 is ALSO directed to Peter specifically, as well as all believers generally. Could Peter’s sins also be re-imputed to him if he, after having received forgiveness, had not the graces to extend this to his fellow man?
I bring back the original questions.

• Was Peter a believer? Yes.
• Is this parable applicable to Peter, as well as others? Yes.
• Should Peter forgive others? Yes
• What happens to Peter should he refuse to forgive (remember he is a believer)?
• Should you perhaps reconsider the OSAS doctrine?

Thanks well written making it easier to understand. Hope you will bear with me.

I would offer the parable about forgiveness. . the 7 times seventy in respect to a believer is more a help for our understanding that forgiving is not forgetting .But rather remembering we have forgave .

Only God can no longer bring to his memory the offences we commit against Him, erasing them from his memory . He tosses them as far as East is from the West .

We are in a sense stuck with the lust of the flesh lust eye, bride of life as spoken of in 1 John. It having to do with the bodies that lust after the temporal things seen . I would call it. The work of the accuser. . by working to the accuse the brethren . In a hope we would not act out of love and not forgive and remember he had . A blessing we do have as he does remind of each other by doing the work of bringing each other to our memory .I would call it a miracle in that way . The gift of a memory left with a dying creation to help teach of the things of God, the things of faith.

I can remember a few years back when the word and seemed to leap up.

John 14:26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Or whatsoever as a family he has said to us.

Philippians 1:2-4 King James Version (KJV) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,

Prayer time a good time when we remember to get the log out of our eyes .And bless those who bless, strengthen the weak, visit the widows who spouce has passed, and unmarried widows , and the fatherless as the single men not fathers . 3 ministries

It could be likened to Peter in Mathew 16 who was given a revelation from the father not seen. . and not what do men as flesh and blood say who Jesus was? It was the key. . hearing the gospel that the gates of hell could never prevail against . As many times with Peter the denier it puffed up his heart opening the way for the accuser of the brethren .

Peter forbid the Son of man, Jesus from finishing the promised demonstration of his three day labor of love, or work of faith . Jesus said to Peter; "get behind me Satan". Not attributing the lie to the person Peter but the source as the things of men . Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus. .Jesus could not deny himself he had forgiven as his first experience of love the hearing of faith that worked in him to both will and do the good pleasure as the imputed righteousness. The righteousness Peter was clothed with Again When God revealed the gospel .And Peter acknowledged the work God worked in him .Peter said :You are the Christ. Today blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, the unseen source of Christian faith. That would not be possible to forgive. He is the way the truth and the unseen source of the living our new source of faith .

 

[TLC209]

I would respectfully disagree that its belief + Holy Spirit, as we see more than enough evidence of believers being saved without first receiving the Holy Spirit.
Abraham, Isaac Jacob, Lazarus who died in poverty, the Thief on the Cross with Jesus, The resurrected saints during Jesus' earthly 40 day walk after the cross, etc, etc.

When we say that so and so was a Christian or Not a Christian, it was only later in the book of Acts that people were first called Christians. So its not those who are called Christian who qualify, but rather belief in Jesus Christ.

The role of the Holy Spirit is to empower believers with a nature of God's grace that allows them to go forth and literally change the world for Christ Jesus. God in us. The hope of glory.

Now where does some possible confusion arise? We are born again when we believe in Jesus Christ. "Our" spirit comes alive within us, and is NOT to be confused with Baptism in the Holy Spirit. The disciples were already born again (as was Peter in your quoted verse above). The Baptism in the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost. This is when we are filled with the Holy Spirit. So it is worthwhile making this distinction otherwise things will get very confusing rather quickly.

With respect.

J

IMO

Salvation comes on believeth...

Sanctification comes on the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

That's why Paul taught of the 2 levels of believers.

New [carnal] believers

Spiritual [sanctified/Holy Ghost filled] believers

Both are saved... repent...believe... born again.

The New believer is the one in danger of "falling away" as both Paul and Christ spoke of, because they do not yet have the Holy Spirit.

So how do you explain the passage I referenced when Jesus says those who are NOT born of Spirit meaning baptism of the Holy Spirit, will NOT enter the Kingdom of God. Which is to say heaven. To say someone is saved implies they are going to heaven. To say someone is saved means they are in heaven. Scripture teaches SHALL BE SAVED meaning HOPE FOR THINGS TO COME TO THOSE WHO ENDURE TILL THE END.

 

[morefaithrequired]

Oasis is a famous band from the 90s. just loved Wonderwall .

 

[OneOfHis]

J

So how do you explain the passage I referenced when Jesus says those who are NOT born of Spirit meaning baptism of the Holy Spirit, will NOT enter the Kingdom of God. Which is to say heaven. To say someone is saved implies they are going to heaven. To say someone is saved means they are in heaven. Scripture teaches SHALL BE SAVED meaning HOPE FOR THINGS TO COME TO THOSE WHO ENDURE TILL THE END.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

(uses birth as an earthly example to show Nicodemus who didnt understand spiritual things something spiritual to him)

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

(again Nicodemus is unable to understand this spiritual lesson even with an earthly example of birth so he uses his earthly reasoning to question Jesus)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(still speaking of brith and trying to relate the two.... born of water = anatomical fluid and born of the Spirit = when God makes His children new)

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(again further explaining the two births.... flesh = water Spirit = God)
__________


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.



All of Gods children go to heaven.
We become His children by grace through faith....

I'd agree not all "in Him" (in the church... the "body of Christ) are born again.

This is due to not having a biblical faith


vvv

Not only knowing Jesus is Lord, (belief) but trusting in Him as Savior.... Confidence in this is the result of the BELIEF and TRUST

which will produce

fidelity/loyalty.....

We can't unKNOW we are His


though some can hear the truth

believe it

and willfully reject it (even if for a time they walk among us as tares or goats)

while not trusting in Jesus and have no confidence which produces "falling away" "unfaithfulness"


4102. pistis ►
Strong's Concordance
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Definition: faith, faithfulness
Usage: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
HELPS Word-studies
4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.


nothing you posted has or will refute the eternal security which is provided to all of Gods saved and born again children
(which doesn't include those He NEVER knew)


I am sorry if I misunderstood your post or intent. I also agree that to be SAVED means you will in no way enter hell.... It means the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to you while your sin was imputed to Him...

 

[Chris1975]

J

So how do you explain the passage I referenced when Jesus says those who are NOT born of Spirit meaning baptism of the Holy Spirit, will NOT enter the Kingdom of God. Which is to say heaven. To say someone is saved implies they are going to heaven. To say someone is saved means they are in heaven. Scripture teaches SHALL BE SAVED meaning HOPE FOR THINGS TO COME TO THOSE WHO ENDURE TILL THE END.

TLC we are very close on this subject, and not far apart. I will address the second part of what you wrote first "To say someone is saved implies they are going to heaven. To say someone is saved means they are in heaven. Scripture teaches SHALL BE SAVED meaning HOPE FOR THINGS TO COME TO THOSE WHO ENDURE TILL THE END" - you are one of the very few people who actually understand this correctly. We are in the process of BEING SAVED. It starts when we believe. It continues through the process of our sanctification. It completes when we overcome. If at any point along this continuum we die (the Lord takes us) then I believe we are Saved. If however on this continuum, we draw back, reject Christ, overlook our sins and are unrepentant, then I believe this is a very dangerous place to be. Why? Because our heart is not in the right place. However I also believe that God is very loving and gracious, full of grace and mercy, not wanting for us to be lost. That is why we have the gift of the Holy Spirit, who convicts the world of sin. He draws us back. But He doesnt draw us back kicking and screaming. We do have a part to play in the process of sanctification.


Now to the first part - "So how do you explain the passage I referenced when Jesus says those who are NOT born of Spirit meaning baptism of the Holy Spirit, will NOT enter the Kingdom of God. Which is to say heaven." In order to address this, lets actually copy the scriptures below to analyse what it says:

John 3

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.



Notice there are two distinct verbs separating this passage. The first is “See” and the second is “Enter”. The first part is to believe in Jesus Christ. When we believe in Jesus Christ, at that instant we are born again. Our spirit comes alive. Before this point a person was comprised of a Body and a Soul (but the spirit was dead/not alive). The day that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, in that day they died (their spirit/ not their bodies). So we find ourselves, as sons and daughters of Adam in the very same state. And the Body (Flesh) is incredibly powerful. And what the body wants, the body gets. As a result all of your soulish decisions defer and yield to fleshly desires. This all changes through Christ. He is the second Adam. He condemned sin IN THE FLESH. Once again restoring authority. The moment you believe in Him you come alive in the spirit. Your personal spirit is alive. Your spirit is the nature that is from God that is planted within you, just like a seed. It becomes a very powerful second voice, which God uses to direct you away from the choices you made before, and gives you the power to give up those sins that once entangled you. We see this interplay between the flesh and Spirit very well documented in Romans 8. When your spirit comes alive (that seed that God plants in you), your soul is left to make the choice. Do I live according to the flesh or to I yield to the leading of the Spirit. This is what it means to See the kingdom of God. We perceive the truth that is found in Christ and the scriptures.

The second part is “Enter”. How is it that we enter the kingdom of God? Here we have the replication of the first part being born of the Spirit (part 1) but we have another factor that comes into play. The washing of the Word. Jesus is the living waters. He says this to the woman at the well. It comes gushing forth (see John 4v13-14) and leads to everlasting life. This part talks to the sanctification part, and marries with what you have mentioned above. God doesn’t just bring justification and peace with the Father. He also fixes us up, to become more Christlike, day by day, year by year, being led by the Spirit. This is the living waters that allow us to “Enter” the kingdom of God. Read John Bunyans “The Pilgrims Progress” to see that journey the main character “Christian” undergoes after coming to the cross. It is in essence the same journey that we are on.



Now the above (being born of the Spirit) is not the same as Baptism in the Holy Spirit. The former (born of the Spirit) happens when we believe. Being Filled with the Spirit (Baptism in the Holy Spirit) is clearly distinct from this. Biblically, this was done by the laying on of hands, and is usually accompanied by signs, miracles, and gifts. By this I mean as you yearn for Him and empty yourself of worldly pursuits, there can be an infilling of the Holy Spirit that is quite distinct from the conversion experience. This is what it means to be “Endued with Power from on High”. And the signs are quite evident as can be seen on the day of Pentecost.

Hope this helps bridge the divide.

 

[Guojing]

Luke 2
Simeon Sees God’s Salvation
25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, 28 he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:

29 “Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation
31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,
32 A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”

33 [h]And Joseph and His mother marveled at those things which were spoken of Him. 34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against 35 (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

Both Israel as well as the Gentiles. By Jesus saying He came to the lost sheep of Isreal doesnt preclude the fact that He is Lord too of the Gentiles

You are misapplying that passage. The Jewish nation was supposed to accept Jesus as their Messiah before they become a light for all the Gentile nations. It was prophesied many times in the OT. (Example ZECHARIAH 8:23)

Hence, you cannot use that passage to contradict Jesus's words to the Canaanite lady. Jesus was indeed sent only to the lost sheep of Israel during his first coming on Earth.

 

[Guojing]

I guess the reason it went in this direction is that one of the earlier posters had indicated that the Red Letter Words of Jesus were not applicable to Christians. And this would be a silly proposition to make. For example, which of the Beatitudes are not applicable to us? Do we throw out the sermon on the mount as only being applicable to Israel, and not the Christian? Why would the Christian get a "free pass" on holy living? No - our consciences witness that if this applies to Israel, it also applies to Christians. Love the Lord your God as the first and greatest commandment (applicable to both Israel and the Christian Church). Likewise with Love your neighbour. Forgive seventy times seven, Do not look upon a woman to lust after her...etc etc.

Anybody rejecting Jesus words in these matters is truly skating on thin ice. He didn't merely come and establish all of these teachings just to flush them all down the toilet upon His crucifixion.

The bible says that Jesus is the gate, the door, and we are to enter the kingdom through him. No other way. A thief tries to enter in a different way.

Yet it is not about including the Gentiles in the Covenant God made with Israel, the Covenant and the Law given on Sinai. We are actually in covenant through Abraham. Both Jew and Gentile are linked at this point. Paul in Romans goes into great detail explaining how we are included in the Abrahamic covenant through Faith.

Abraham wasnt a Jew

But Red letter Christians don't practice what they preach. Do they sell all they have to give to the poor? When their eye cause them to sin, do they cut it out and throw away? Do they pick up snakes and drink poison as a sign that they believe?

If you truly hold that conviction, then go all the way. Don't pick and choose among Jesus's words.

 

[Guojing]

Just curious...what did Peter believe at the tim


You very well know most people on here are not dispensationalists. They try to force all doctrines upon the Church. This is the major cause of works salvation or works proving salvation and one losing salvation.

Personally I learn a lot of new things every time from all these exchanges, on how others can form all kinds of doctrine.

That one by Adstar claiming that Peter was not a believer of Jesus, until post resurrection, was a new doctrine I have yet to encounter until now.

 

[Chris1975]

You are misapplying that passage. The Jewish nation was supposed to accept Jesus as their Messiah before they become a light for all the Gentile nations. It was prophesied many times in the OT. (Example ZECHARIAH 8:23)

Hence, you cannot use that passage to contradict Jesus's words to the Canaanite lady. Jesus was indeed sent only to the lost sheep of Israel during his first coming on Earth.

Are you saying that prophecy has failed? Clearly it didn't happen as you assert above, so either prophecy failed or your interpretation is wrong.
Hint: Biblical prophecy never fails.

 

[Chris1975]

But Red letter Christians don't practice what they preach. Do they sell all they have to give to the poor? When their eye cause them to sin, do they cut it out and throw away? Do they pick up snakes and drink poison as a sign that they believe?

If you truly hold that conviction, then go all the way. Don't pick and choose among Jesus's words.

Let me tell you my conviction. I will be more comfortable standing before my maker upholding and honouring his red letter word on that Day than those who deny it.

 

[Guojing]

Are you saying that prophecy has failed? Clearly it didn't happen as you assert above, so either prophecy failed or your interpretation is wrong.
Hint: Biblical prophecy never fails.

The Jewish nation exercised their free will to reject their "brother" in his first coming. That is why Gentiles like us can now be included in the salvation plan.

But there will come a future time when they will accept their brother, in his second coming.

Read Romans 9-11 for the details. The Joseph story in Genesis can also help you to understand that timetable.

 

[Guojing]

Let me tell you my conviction. I will be more comfortable standing before my maker upholding and honouring his red letter word on that Day than those who deny it.

You may be comforted by that thought, but in the eyes of the Law of Moses, failure to uphold one word is equivalent to failure to uphold all of it. (James 2:10)