Did He, Or Didn't He?

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thepsalmist said:
MATT 6:9
“This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

....Why then did Jesus give us this prayer that tell us we should pray for forgiveness?

Do you believe that this prayer that Jesus gave us was nullified when He rose again?
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Yes, I think it is clearly put forth in the word of God that our forgiveness is found in Jesus Christ (I.e, what He did for us on the cross). He paid for all our sins. How then is faith in Christ being replaced with a notion that our forgiveness is dependent upon ourselves and not faith in Jesus? If our forgiveness is in any way dependent upon ourselves no longer is Jesus our savior, and what was once a salvation by grace turns into a salvation by works. Salvation turns into a wage due, and no longer a free gift.

Jesus did preach forgiveness, but you must consider the time frame. VVhen this was said, had Christ died and resurrected yet? So then sin had yet to be dealt with. Post-cross how God dealt with man and sin completely changed. No longer was forgiveness dependent upon self but faith in Jesus. If a person must forgive in order to be saved, consider what horrors have happened to men and women in this fallen world that a heart is hardened. Do you think the Lord would condemn the one who is mourning? Does He not have pity and compassion? More importantly, if unforgiveness is sin, did not Christ die for all sin?

Consider the implications if we apply Jesus' pre-cross words now as opposed to post-cross teachings. VVe would be bringing and mixing law with grace and thereby nullifying the two. Jesus did say things that do not apply to a NT believer under the new covenant. To imply we have to forgive or else, then salvation isn't as simple as the apostles made it and they did us a huge disservice. VVe ought to forgive and it is because of Christ's forgiveness that we do so. Not of necessity but gratitude.

Ephesians 4:32King James Version (KJV)

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.


Colossians 3:13King James Version (KJV)

13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Notice we have Christ's forgiveness and therefore forgive.
 
BenFTW said:
Yes, I think it is clearly put forth in the word of God that our forgiveness is found in Jesus Christ (I.e, what He did for us on the cross). He paid for all our sins. How then is faith in Christ being replaced with a notion that our forgiveness is dependent upon ourselves and not faith in Jesus? If our forgiveness is in any way dependent upon ourselves no longer is Jesus our savior, and what was once a salvation by grace turns into a salvation by works. Salvation turns into a wage due, and no longer a free gift.
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Complete inability of the gnostic view taken to its absurd extreme.
 
Dispensationalism - "if people like you and peter get your heads out the past

If only you would realise we are in the latter rain it would all be different.
The problem is God does not change. Theology of Adam & Eve through to the apostles has to be consistent and biblical.
The story is God is moral, is love itself, is driven by righteousness and unless we walk in these things we do not know Him.

Now any preacher who goes away from this has just lost the plot and is preaching heresy.

What I find strange is how saying exactly what EG believes is lying, slander, evil, and should be banned, when it is just stating what is being said and what it means.

The power of the emotional world he can create is he is right and we are evil twisting and distorting his contributions, when the reality is we are being very fair and straight and just declaring what is being given.

And somehow we deserve to be banned. That is the power of delusion. That is the power of emotion and not just seeing facts but feeding self satisfied abuse at others. This is a dangerous game because it is nuts as well as talking about eternal things. But you would imagine with the level of maturity here, this should not occur. But then it shows how deep the teachings have deceived people and led them astray.
 
PeterJens said:
Dispensationalism - "if people like you and peter get your heads out the past

If only you would realise we are in the latter rain it would all be different.
The problem is God does not change. Theology of Adam & Eve through to the apostles has to be consistent and biblical.
The story is God is moral, is love itself, is driven by righteousness and unless we walk in these things we do not know Him.

Now any preacher who goes away from this has just lost the plot and is preaching heresy.

What I find strange is how saying exactly what EG believes is lying, slander, evil, and should be banned, when it is just stating what is being said and what it means.

The power of the emotional world he can create is he is right and we are evil twisting and distorting his contributions, when the reality is we are being very fair and straight and just declaring what is being given.

And somehow we deserve to be banned. That is the power of delusion. That is the power of emotion and not just seeing facts but feeding self satisfied abuse at others. This is a dangerous game because it is nuts as well as talking about eternal things. But you would imagine with the level of maturity here, this should not occur. But then it shows how deep the teachings have deceived people and led them astray.
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1. I meant get your head out of calvainism, Armenianism, And men who died many years ago.. And Peter knows I meant this, but he wants to attack further.
2. Yet again, Peter take one point out of a post. and fails to put context in. only so he can get a jab, and slander what someone else said.

Peter you are losing any respect you may have Stop it man for your own sake and respect. .

Living n the past (calling me calvanist) is what got you in trouble to begin with.. You want to keep it up and keep slandering people.. You will suffer the consequences.
 
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Originally Posted by emberNot here. I have never ever seen that preached here by anyone but you and several others who claim that is what
we believe. Yah can't make this stuff up! LOL!
.[/QUOTE

This phrase is an exaguration, a lie, a slander, a denigration, an accusation
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Well, what else would you say?

That's about ALL you EVER say when someone points out your lies

By the way? You spelled exaggeration wrong...and that's the truth
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Hey Budman.....in viewing this thread...what your question has shown in reality is how much the gospel of the grace of Christ has been watered down and the lengths we can go to nullify the true grace of Christ in our lives. We are to repent and BELIEVE the gospel.

Your post has shown light in the darkness......


Budman said:
Did the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ pay for all of your sins or not?

Pretty simple question.

There are far too many people these days who believe there are still things they must do to obtain/keep salvation apart from repentance and faith.

But you cannot claim to believe Jesus died to pay for all of your sins, and then add something (or some "things") to the gospel.

Adding anything to salvation nullifies it. To work for a gift means it was never a gift at all.

Either God gets all of the glory for your salvation, or you do.

You can't have it both ways.
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Grace777x70 said:
Maybe that is what they hear when someone says.."We live by the life of Christ in us and the Holy Spirit changes us as a fruit of being in Christ...HIs love in and through us expresses itself in doing good works but all this is done by the life of Christ in us and not from self-effort"..

..I don't know..either they don't understand the Holy Spirit's work in our life because we are a new creation in Christ or what it really means to "be in Christ"..or maybe both??? There is definitely a spiritual blockage happening there of some sort.
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yeah

I've come to the conclusion, that he is a chameleon.

it's like trying to nail jello to the wall

LOL!
 
BenFTW said:
Consider the implications if we apply Jesus' pre-cross words now as opposed to post-cross teachings. VVe would be bringing and mixing law with grace and thereby nullifying the two. Jesus did say things that do not apply to a NT believer under the new covenant. To imply we have to forgive or else, then salvation isn't as simple as the apostles made it and they did us a huge disservice. VVe ought to forgive and it is because of Christ's forgiveness that we do so. Not of necessity but gratitude.
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This is just a satanic lie.
 
I watched Joseph Prince yesterday and he made mention of the fact that the doctrine of grace, GODS'S grace, is under attack today like never before

So many trying to work their way to heaven and impress God along the way
 
Watch this and you will see a lot of what is going on even in CC...this guy describes what is happening to a "t"...( what ever "t" means..:).)

[video=vimeo;11804054]https://vimeo.com/11804054[/video]


ember said:
I watched Joseph Prince yesterday and he made mention of the fact that the doctrine of grace, GODS'S grace, is under attack today like never before

So many trying to work their way to heaven and impress God along the way
QUOTE]
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HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Complete inability of the gnostic view taken to its absurd extreme.
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just herose's way of trying to undermine the character of someone

he does this all the time...literally ALL the time

calls people liars, slanderers and of course the overuse of the word Gnostic...because he does not have a clue what it actually means, but it lines up very nicely with his peligistic viewpoints and beliefs...which he stoutly denies, but which stick up out of his posts like a cactus in the otherwise dry landscape of his pointless attacks
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Only the devil says that all of Christ's words are not for all new covenant believers. If the shoe fits, wear it...
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well you should know, eh?

you are forever calling on the devil to witness your words...you mention him just about every 2nd post

this person is the devil ... that person is the devil

forever calling people names

fruit of what spirit would that be now?...you know, slander? who does that

wait...wait...

it's the devil :(
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Complete inability of the gnostic view taken to its absurd extreme.
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Spokesperson for Gnosticism, title awarded to HeRoseFromTheDead. :) You seem really obsessed with Gnosticism. The Gospel isn't Gnosticism and you keep defining it as such. Surely you would accuse the apostles of the same thing if you sat listening to them preach.
 
BenFTW said:
Spokesperson for Gnosticism, title awarded to HeRoseFromTheDead. :) You seem really obsessed with Gnosticism. The Gospel isn't Gnosticism and you keep defining it as such. Surely you would accuse the apostles of the same thing if you sat listening to them preach.
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LOL!

It REALLY is getting kind of gnosty in here, isn't it?
 
My fault, I mention the lady, and here she is, watch out guys, the streams of blows and abuse are about to flow.

The problem is with this kind of approach is it descends into people saying each other is the devil.
I suppose one side really does believe this.

It is like saying the gospel of grace is under attack. What this actually is is hyper-grace and critics of this theology understand exactly what it stands for and why it is dangerous. Now there is a problem here. Once you highlight an issue people do polarise. It is why in the end times you get the army fighting God, because everything becomes plain and simple, for or against.
 
I listened to Dr. Brown's talking against the gnostic view put forth. He said Gnosticism was just starting back then when John wrote his epistle and it became full blown by a 100 years later.

I reflected on that and all heresy has it's roots in truth. The apostles were preaching that our inner man..our new creation in Christ was circumcised from our flesh. Paul called it the circumcision of Christ..of the flesh and of the heart. Basically it's 2 sides of the same coin.

This apparent " schism " ( AKA the sealing of the Holy Spirit ) from the spirit of the new creation in Christ and the body gives rise to all sorts of thoughts and in the unregenerate man - strange stuff can come out of that.

It's kinda the same principal as people calling grace believers that we are saying it's ok to sin all we want. Paul was accused of the same thing. My point is we can always tell what is being preached by the opposition that comes against it and then the heresies that arise from the distortions and religious beliefs from man-made traditions.

Then when the truth comes into the light...then it's called a heresy......just like what happened to Luther when he said " The just shall live by faith"....the heresy hunters were after him..and Oh..he was "satanic" too BTW in their estimation....:cool:



BenFTW said:
Spokesperson for Gnosticism, title awarded to HeRoseFromTheDead. :) You seem really obsessed with Gnosticism. The Gospel isn't Gnosticism and you keep defining it as such. Surely you would accuse the apostles of the same thing if you sat listening to them preach.
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