Thats why I said Christ died for His sheep
Those who believe in Him in time.
The group from the foundation of the world
Did Jesus die for the sins of all mankind?
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Those who believe in Him in time.
The group from the foundation of the world
The sin of unbelief was atoned for.
Jesus said that he had to go back to the Father so that the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world of its sin.
That sin is unbelief in Jesus.
So those who reject Jesus are condemned.
Crossing over from unbelief to believe doesn't mean we are still condemned
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Thats not what the bibe says thoughThats why I said Christ died for His sheep
Those who believe in Him in time.
The group from the foundation of the world
It says he died for the whole world.
It does not say the people jesus did not die for are condemned, it says those who do not believe (vs those who believe) are codndemned.
Jesus made it clear. We have until the day we die to recieve his grace gift. Otherwise, we will remain dead. Because jesus did not pay for the sin of unbelief. When you reject the gospel. You do not just reject Christ, Your blaspheming the HS by declairing the words of the gospel are a lie. (IE the HS is a liar)
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
You have ten people who are shipwrecked
A ship comes to rescue all ten.
5 decide the people on the ship were their enemy, so refused rescue
The other 5, decided they wanted to be rescued, and allowed the people to rescue them,
Salvation was offered to all 10 people. But only 5 were saved, Because they believed, The other 5 did not believe, so they were condemned already. But it was not the rescuers fault. The rescuer was found just and righteous even though the 5 died, Because the rescuer offered to save them also. But would not force them to recieve their gift.
Jesus offers salvation to the world. he came to rescue (the word save literally means to be rescued) the world. Who are in their own ocean, with no hope. With no ability to save themselves. Jesus as rescuer comes, But not everyone will be saved, because many refuse his offer. They consider him their enemy. But many others will recieve
Jesus is justified and found righteous in either case, because he offered salvation to everyone, he just did not force his gift on anyone.
A ship comes to rescue all ten.
5 decide the people on the ship were their enemy, so refused rescue
The other 5, decided they wanted to be rescued, and allowed the people to rescue them,
Salvation was offered to all 10 people. But only 5 were saved, Because they believed, The other 5 did not believe, so they were condemned already. But it was not the rescuers fault. The rescuer was found just and righteous even though the 5 died, Because the rescuer offered to save them also. But would not force them to recieve their gift.
Jesus offers salvation to the world. he came to rescue (the word save literally means to be rescued) the world. Who are in their own ocean, with no hope. With no ability to save themselves. Jesus as rescuer comes, But not everyone will be saved, because many refuse his offer. They consider him their enemy. But many others will recieve
Jesus is justified and found righteous in either case, because he offered salvation to everyone, he just did not force his gift on anyone.
Not sure why people aren't understanding this.
They are all limiting the Atonement in some way. But they don't understand that they do it.
I think I'm starting to feel like you do here. Like its a lot of effort for no real purpose.
How do you get someone to see something they don't want to see?
How can you say that those who hold to Unlimited Atonement are "limiting it in some way"? That is merely your perception. Just because all will not obey the Gospel does not limit Atonement in the least. The limitation is strictly confined to the one who will not obey the Gospel. But salvation is offered to all -- whosoever -- without limitation and without exception.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)
You keep saying it is unlimited. Then in the next breath you limit it.
If the Atonement is contingent on obeying the Gospel, as you say, then only those who obey the Gospel are Atoned.
You have just limited the Atonement to those who are Obedient to the Gospel.
I've already asked you if everyone, without exception, is in a saved state and you said that was a ridiculous conclusion to come to. Well if everyone is Atoned for and all their sins are forgiven then aren't they saved?
No, you say, it is contingent on them obeying the gospel.
No Atonement = No Salvation
Atoned = Saved
You are simply confused about the Atonement -- the finished work of Christ -- and THE APPLICATION of the Atonement. Once you grasp that simple concept, you will understand.
Here is an analogy. Electricity is available to all in your city. But unless you personally apply for a hook up, and pay your bills in time, you will not have access to that electricity.
Roger. Electricity APPEARS to be available to everyone. But...
The electricity is LIMITED to the people who apply and pay their bills on time.
I have no confusion on the Atonement or who it applies to. That is why I have no problems saying it is limited to Believers.
You limit it to believers as well you are just afraid to state it in simple terms. Everyone so far has limited the Atonement to Believers but for some reason they don't understand, just like you, that they are doing it.
Its ok. Its just like when legalists say that the Law won't give you salvation but you still have to follow it. They are stuck in some sort of weird circular reasoning that only makes sense to themselves. So they can resist saying certain terms but then state the exact same thing in different ways thinking and hoping that it somehow makes a difference or that people won't point out the obvious mistakes they make.
Thayer's Greek translation of the word WORLD in John 1:29 (which is referenced in 1 John 2:2), John 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9 and 2 Cor 5:19: is "any aggregate or general collection of particals of any sort." (used of believers only). John 6:37-40, says Jesus died only for those that God gave him, and that he would not loose any of them, but raise them all up at the last day.
Goodevening Garee..
The Key (belief/faith) is not something that can be used occasionally. The belief and faith of the person will begin to change the very nature of the person. A walk, following His teachings through Paul our apostle, to get us a little close to Jesus on a day by day basis.
As far as a newly created life after death, is only expressed in the glorification and transfiguration of the Fleshly body into a body that is like that of Jesus Christ. How so....For we can see him as HE is.
1 JOHN 3:2."Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. "
Blade
Before one can believe in a spiritual God, they must be born again, Eph 2:5 and 1 Cor 2:14. Psalms 53:2-3, tells us what God saw in man by his foreknowledge.Thats why I said Christ died for His sheep
Those who believe in Him in time.
The group from the foundation of the world
I fully agree with your post. When we are born of the Spirit, Eph 2:5, we put on Christ and we have no righteousness by our fleshly nature, only the imputed righteousness of Christ. Christ then is in us and that is why he cannot deny himself, even in our unbelief.
Somebody might ask the question,what must a man do to get reborn?
Calvanist might say,men loved darkness.
Excellent illustration: just don't take away their free choice after they get on the rescue ship . . .
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Its okExcellent illustration: just don't take away their free choice after they get on the rescue ship . . .
Don’t try to convince me the people who were rescued would want to be put back into the water they were taken out of. Because I will have to disagree with you
Do you mind to expound on your statement? I am missing your point.Somebody might ask the question,what must a man do to get reborn?
Calvanist might say,men loved darkness.
Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice to God, for God's acceptance, for the sins of the people that God gave him. God accepted his offer, and was pleased. Jesus paid the price in full for the sins of those he died for and none of the sins will keep them out of heaven. Jesus's offering was not to man for man's acceptance, but for God's acceptance. All of those that he died for will be in heaven at the last day.