Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[PaulThomson]

There was a Calvinist here (haven't seen him for a while) who would swear up and down that I believed things
I did not and that I did not believe things I did even when I could show him a history of my posts spanning a
great deal of my time here proving that what he believed about what I believed was wrong. He never wavered.

Almost all Calvinists are immunised against truth.

 

[Magenta]

Almost all Calvinists are immunised against truth.

He was stuck on believing I was that which he had labelled me even though he was thoroughly in error.

 

[PaulThomson]

No, I defined omniscience from a biblical perspective.

No. You defined omniscience from a Calvinist-platonist perspective and imposed that onto the Bible.

 

[PaulThomson]

No, I defined omniscience from a biblical perspective. And all the passages I either cited or quoted (.e.g. Prov 21, Job 42, etc.) are entirely consistent with that biblical definition. No tenet of anything in my theology contradicts another. That's how I know I'm on the right track. The Law of Noncontradiction keeps me on the straight and narrow; for God cannot lie.

And then there is this from my non-inspired NIV:

Isa 40:14
14 Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him,
and who taught him the right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge
or showed him the path of understanding?
NIV

Explain how this text says God exhaustively knows all the future.

You have constructed your religion and its terms in such a way that it is unfalsifiable. That's how you should realise you are on the wrong track.

 

[Rufus]

Most people believe unfairness is a pejorative, and it does in our time carry a negative connotation. But unfair simply means to treat people unequally. This is certainly true of God by your own admission.

God doesn't claim to be fair. He does claim to be just.

Interesting how definitions evolve. My M-W sez......"marked by injustice, partiality or deception. UNJUST. " And "not equitable in business dealings." So, no, by the real definition of "unfair" I don't believe God has ever been or is ever unfair-- or for that matter can be unfair.

 

[Rufus]

No. You defined omniscience from a Calvinist-platonist perspective and imposed that onto the Bible.

Nope, I'm guided by the bible. Your definition of "omniscience" is from a secular perspective.

Ex 3:7
7 The LORD said, "I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering.
NIV

1 Sam 2:3
3 "Do not keep talking so proudly
or let your mouth speak such arrogance,
for the LORD is a God who knows,
and by him deeds are weighed.
NIV

Ps 139:1-6
For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.

1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.

5 You hem me in — behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
NIV

Ps 147:5
5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.
NIV

Job 21:22
22 "Can anyone teach knowledge to God,
since he judges even the highest?
NIV

Job 37:16
16 Do you know how the clouds hang poised,
those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?
NIV

Rom 11:34
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
NIV

1 John 3:20b
20 For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
NIV

Isa 46:10
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
NIV

Isa 55:8-9
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
NIV

But as for you, you evidently think God is like us!

Ps 50:21
21 These things you have done and I kept silent;
you thought I was altogether like you.
But I will rebuke you
and accuse you to your face.
NIV

 

[Rufus]

Explain how this text says God exhaustively knows all the future.

You have constructed your religion and its terms in such a way that it is unfalsifiable. That's how you should realise you are on the wrong track.

Did I say the passage teaches what you're asking?

 

[Rufus]

Some of us seem to have a peculiar idea of what "fairness" is. Well. then, I appeal to a parable that teaches us about this very subject. In the Parable of the Laborers (Mat 20:1-16), who amongst of here thinks the landowner in this parable treated his workers unfairly?

 

[CS1]

Interesting how definitions evolve. My M-W sez......"marked by injustice, partiality or deception. UNJUST. " And "not equitable in business dealings." So, no, by the real definition of "unfair" I don't believe God has ever been or is ever unfair-- or for that matter can be unfair.

the idea that man can even judge God as being fair or unfair is a problem. God has ordered the killing of children and women. God has destroyed cities with women and children.

Many men think that it is unfair. God is right in all He does, even when it is perceived as unfair or fair by man. He is God all by Himself and doesn't need our approval.

 

[PaulThomson]

Did I say the passage teaches what you're asking?

Rufus said:
God does not need to re-route his plans because all knowledge with him is spontaneous and instantaneous. You obviously think God is not omniscient but rather is like us his creatures of clay -- finite; for we often do in space and time have to make changes to our plans, don't we?

On the other hand Re Job 42:2, which you didn't like in the NIV and prefer your [implied] KJV over, the two most literal translations read:

Job 42:2
2 Thou hast known that [for] all things Thou art able, And not withheld from Thee is [any] device:
YLT

And,

Job 42:2
2 I know that thou canst do everything, and that thou canst be hindered in no thought of thine.
Darby

Or what about the NASB, which is also of the Formal Equivalency family?

Job 42:2
2 "I know that Thou canst do all things,
And that no purpose of Thine can be thwarted.
NASB

Wow! Look at that! The text immediately above is not very far removed from the NIV is it? Or for that matter from the ESV or the ASV or the RSV or the NRSV -- all of which are of the FE genre of translations. And all of these are very much in agreement with how various Dynamic Equivalency versions read! So...it looks like your wooden, stilted KJV (as "divinely inspired" as you may think it is ) is sadly an outlier in this instance. And it rightly should be, given this text and many others explicitly teach the omniscience and omnipotence of God, e.g. Gen 18:4; Jer 32:17; Dan 4:35; Mk 10:27, etc. No plan of man can succeed against God that would require the Lord God Almighty to redraw his battle plans -- to rethink his strategy as though God's thoughts are as progressive as ours. Sadly, your very low view of God resembles those of skeptics and atheists rather than a born again child of God.

Why are you NOW trying to deny that you believe in exhaustive divine foreknowledge of all the past, present and future?

 

[PaulThomson]

Nope, I'm guided by the bible. Your definition of "omniscience" is from a secular perspective.

So, what is your concise definition of God's omniscience based on the Bible? And what does He not know,? Does He know how to draw a square circle?

 

[Rufus]

Interesting that you see it as being stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't see it as being stuck at all. And I did not say anything at all to you about God making Adam what he became. So many say things like, Adam was perfect. Eh. I don't see that in the text anywhere, do you? God saw His creation as good, and after Eve was created, very good. If Adam was perfect, would he have sinned? Jesus is perfect. He sinned not. The second Adam. The last Adam, not the first. Some even say A&E were immortal until they ate the forbidden fruit. My goodness. Where or how they come up with these conclusions is beyond me, and you know, go directly against what Scripture teaches. Others say they had eaten of the Tree of Life just to remain alive. How they wrangle that out of the text perplexes. Adam and Eve were of the natural world and Jesus was purposed from before the foundation of the world to be the propitiation for sin.

But you did say earlier:

" So... the point here being I do not believe God makes
it impossible for any to choose Him and then punishes them forever after for failing to choose Him."

Since God clearly warned Adam that in the day [when] he would eat of the fruit, he would "surely die" (Gen 2:17), then it's not God who made it impossible for Adam and all his progeny to make right choices, e.g. believe in him, since God didn't force Adam to disobey him. So, I suppose it's incumbent upon us to learn from scripture precisely what [spiritual] death entails. I think far too many of us downplay the consequences of death. Too many of us seem to think, we merely incurred or inherited a few wounds from our first parents.

Re Adam's "perfection": I would have to agree with scripture, that all God's creation was "very good" (Gen 1:31), including Adam. Plus we are told that man (Adam) was created "upright" (Eccl 7:29), i.e. straight, just, meet + pleased well right(-eous), (most) upright (-ly), per Strong's 3477 for "yashar".

And this isn't all. As stated previously, Adam came into this world having a distinct advantage over all his progeny -- in fact, more than one! Do you know what they were?

You ask the question that if Adam was "perfect" would he have sinned? With that question, are you inferring that God's creation was less than "very good"? Are you implying that God created Adam with moral/spiritual defects? Or that God could have done better by creating Adam with more features or safeguards against using his will to satisfy his own ends? Or are you implying, perhaps, in a more nuanced, subtle way that God should have prevented Adam from sinning -- perhaps the way He did with Abimelech in Genesis 20? Or that God could have prevented the Fall and made the creation even better than "very good" if he hadn't cast down Lucifer from heaven to his pristine earthly creation after he sinned?

Re your question about A&E's "immortality": Would they have died if they hadn't disobeyed? Was it God's intention that A&E die? Did the Eternal One, the Self-Existing One who Himself is Life create our first parents just so they would die, or for that matter that any of his higher creation should die? For example, why would God create the animals as herbivores if he intended for them to die? If he intended for animals to die, why not just create the beasts as carnivores in the first place?

P.S. Don't disparage the "natural world" as though it were evil. Don't forget: All believers will be living in the natural world for all eternity -- along with our Creator and Redeemer. Heaven is only a very short pit stop for us.

 

[Rufus]

Rufus said:
God does not need to re-route his plans because all knowledge with him is spontaneous and instantaneous. You obviously think God is not omniscient but rather is like us his creatures of clay -- finite; for we often do in space and time have to make changes to our plans, don't we?

On the other hand Re Job 42:2, which you didn't like in the NIV and prefer your [implied] KJV over, the two most literal translations read:

Job 42:2
2 Thou hast known that [for] all things Thou art able, And not withheld from Thee is [any] device:
YLT

And,

Job 42:2
2 I know that thou canst do everything, and that thou canst be hindered in no thought of thine.
Darby

Or what about the NASB, which is also of the Formal Equivalency family?

Job 42:2
2 "I know that Thou canst do all things,
And that no purpose of Thine can be thwarted.
NASB

Wow! Look at that! The text immediately above is not very far removed from the NIV is it? Or for that matter from the ESV or the ASV or the RSV or the NRSV -- all of which are of the FE genre of translations. And all of these are very much in agreement with how various Dynamic Equivalency versions read! So...it looks like your wooden, stilted KJV (as "divinely inspired" as you may think it is ) is sadly an outlier in this instance. And it rightly should be, given this text and many others explicitly teach the omniscience and omnipotence of God, e.g. Gen 18:4; Jer 32:17; Dan 4:35; Mk 10:27, etc. No plan of man can succeed against God that would require the Lord God Almighty to redraw his battle plans -- to rethink his strategy as though God's thoughts are as progressive as ours. Sadly, your very low view of God resembles those of skeptics and atheists rather than a born again child of God.

Why are you NOW trying to deny that you believe in exhaustive divine foreknowledge of all the past, present and future?

"Foreknowledge"??? I thought we were talking about an attribute of God known as "omniscience". Did you miss my post 2306?

It seems to me that you clearly think that the Self-Existing One -- the Great I AM -- doesn't transcend his creation, most especially Time. Do you understand that with Him there is no such thing as the Past, Present and Future? That these components are merely constructs of temporal reality? But with him, there is only NOW! There is only "today"!

 

[Magenta]

But you did say earlier:

" So... the point here being I do not believe God makes
it impossible for any to choose Him and then punishes them forever after for failing to choose Him."

Since God clearly warned Adam that in the day [when] he would eat of the fruit, he would "surely die" (Gen 2:17), then it's not God who made it impossible for Adam and all his progeny to make right choices, e.g. believe in him, since God didn't force Adam to disobey him. So, I suppose it's incumbent upon us to learn from scripture precisely what [spiritual] death entails. I think far too many of us downplay the consequences of death. Too many of us seem to think, we merely incurred or inherited a few wounds from our first parents.

Re Adam's "perfection": I would have to agree with scripture, that all God's creation was "very good" (Gen 1:31), including Adam. Plus we are told that man (Adam) was created "upright" (Eccl 7:29), i.e. straight, just, meet + pleased well right(-eous), (most) upright (-ly), per Strong's 3477 for "yashar".

And this isn't all. As stated previously, Adam came into this world having a distinct advantage over all his progeny -- in fact, more than one! Do you know what they were?

You ask the question that if Adam was "perfect" would he have sinned? With that question, are you inferring that God's creation was less than "very good"? Are you implying that God created Adam with moral/spiritual defects? Or that God could have done better by creating Adam with more features or safeguards against using his will to satisfy his own ends? Or are you implying, perhaps, in a more nuanced, subtle way that God should have prevented Adam from sinning -- perhaps the way He did with Abimelech in Genesis 20? Or that God could have prevented the Fall and made the creation even better than "very good" if he hadn't cast down Lucifer from heaven to his pristine earthly creation after he sinned?

Re your question about A&E's "immortality": Would they have died if they hadn't disobeyed? Was it God's intention that A&E die? Did the Eternal One, the Self-Existing One who Himself is Life create our first parents just so they would die, or for that matter that any of his higher creation should die? For example, why would God create the animals as herbivores if he intended for them to die? If he intended for animals to die, why not just create the beasts as carnivores in the first place?

P.S. Don't disparage the "natural world" as though it were evil. Don't forget: All believers will be living in the natural world for all eternity -- along with our Creator and Redeemer. Heaven is only a very short pit stop for us.

You ask questions I already answered, such as my stating that God saw His creation as good, and after Eve was made, very good. And I still never said or hinted in any way that God made it impossible for Adam to choose rightly. Had Adam chosen correctly, and eaten of the Tree of Life, he would not have died. You speak to me as if I have said things I have not, such as cautioning me not to disparage the natural world. Gosh. I said nothing disparaging the natural world. It is a Scriptural FACT that the natural man must be born again a spiritual man.

I had hoped you were above such tactics.

 

[Rufus]

See my 2306 for my understanding of "omniscience".

And, no, God cannot draw square circles. He is limited -- just like we're limited. There is no such thing in this universe as a libertine or libertarian will. God, like us, is restrained by his Essence, i.e. nature. I have pointed this out often on this thread. Yet...in spite of this, so many here think they can concoct an anthropology that flies in the face of both the bible and the Law of Identity -- that posits (by some strange miracle) we can freely choose to become something that we ARE not [by nature]. That we can actually make choices contrary to our essence -- which would make us mightier than our Creator!

Having said that, I have often also maintained that man is nonetheless a free moral agent, since he is as free (as God is) to make choices consistent with his nature. I don't know about you, but I personally take great comfort and delight in these truths, especially with respect to God's immutability. It's comforting to know that God not only will not sin -- but he CANNOT sin.

 

[Rufus]

You ask questions I already answered, such as my stating that God saw His creation as good, and after Eve was made, very good. And I still never said or hinted in any way that God made it impossible for Adam to choose rightly. Had Adam chosen correctly, and eaten of the Tree of Life, he would not have died. You speak to me as if I have said things I have not, such as cautioning me not to disparage the natural world. Gosh. I said nothing disparaging the natural world. It is a Scriptural FACT that the natural man must be born again a spiritual man.

I had hoped you were above such tactics.

At the same time you certainly seemed to be questioning Adam's perfection. No? And then there was your remark about God making it impossible for us to believe? I'm with you on that. He didn't! (This is the good news.) But Adam did!) (Alas, the very bad news!)

But you never have answered me about the distinct advantages Adam had over all his progeny. Or don't you think he had any?

And for that matter, I would like to hear your theology on what spiritual death entails.

 

[PaulThomson]

"Foreknowledge"??? I thought we were talking about an attribute of God known as "omniscience". Did you miss my post 2306?

It seems to me that you clearly think that the Self-Existing One -- the Great I AM -- doesn't transcend his creation, most especially Time. Do you understand that with Him there is no such thing as the Past, Present and Future? That these components are merely constructs of temporal reality? But with him, there is only NOW! There is only "today"!

Your concept of omniscience obviously includes exhaustive divine foreknowledge. Why are you reacting with disbelief that I started dealing with your extra-biblical theory of exhaustive divine foreknowledge when critiquing your view of divine omniscience?

 

[BillyBob]

But you never have answered me about the distinct advantages Adam had over all his progeny. Or don't you think he had any?

He had the ability to choose good or evil. Fallen man lost the ability to please God in any way.

 

[Mem]

So, you can tell some people that they can believe that Jesus died for them because it is true.
And you can tell other people that they can't believe that Jesus died for them because it isn't true....

 

[Magenta]

So, you can tell some people that they can believe that Jesus died for them because it is true.
And you can tell other people that they can't believe that Jesus died for them because it isn't true....

Calvinism in a nutshell...