Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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Rufus said:
I take it by the above that you don't believe what Jesus said after all. Didn't take me me long at all to prove your hypocrisy, did it?

You boldly claimed earlier:
"I go by the words of Christ that can be found in the Bible so if you think I am heretical then you are claiming Jesus was one."

But now that you can't believe him, then I have to think you believe Jesus was a heretic.

And there is no imperative in John 3:16, proving once again that there's nothing you won't do, no low to which you won't stoop to justify your presuppositions. There is no excuse you won't use, no matter how absurdly inane. And since you think Jesus' teachings, which he often expressed in parabolic form, aren't prime scripture on par with his Father's commands, why don't you give us your exposition of Mat 18: 1-14? This should be fun now that you've gone to a new low by pitting Father against Son, even though everything Jesus taught he received from his Father. :rolleyes:
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You clearly have never studied the Old Testament Shepherds. David laid his life on the line against bears and lions and other predators. Jesus is willing to lay His life down for His Own Sheep. But Jesus Sheep come from the Father's command to Die for the whole world.
 
R

Rufus

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FollowerofShiloh said:
You clearly have never studied the Old Testament Shepherds. David laid his life on the line against bears and lions and other predators. Jesus is willing to lay His life down for His Own Sheep. But Jesus Sheep come from the Father's command to Die for the whole world.
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Two things: First of all Matthew 18 is NOT addressing the question of who the objects of Christ's atonement are. So, Jn 3:16 has nothing to do with that passage. A total non sequitur. Matthew 18 is addressing the doctrine of the Preservation of the Saints/Sheep! If you're going to appeal to a passage on who the objects of Christ's atonement are, then you need to go to John 10 the Good Shepherd's Discourse.

David the shepherd boy risked his life to actually save his sheep! He didn't make their salvation merely possible, he actually saved two sheep on two separate occasions by RESCUING them from the jaws of certain death. In other words, David PRESERVED the life of his sheep. And that is what Jesus is teaching in Matthew 18. Why can't you believe Jesus?

Matt 18:14
14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones (v.6) should be lost.
NIV
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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Rufus said:
Two things: First of all Matthew 18 is NOT addressing the question of who the objects of Christ's atonement are. So, Jn 3:16 has nothing to do with that passage. A total non sequitur. Matthew 18 is addressing the doctrine of the Preservation of the Saints/Sheep! If you're going to appeal to a passage on who the objects of Christ's atonement are, then you need to go to John 10 the Good Shepherd's Discourse.

David the shepherd boy risked his life to actually save his sheep! He didn't make their salvation merely possible, he actually saved two sheep on two separate occasions by RESCUING them from the jaws of certain death. In other words, David PRESERVED the life of his sheep. And that is what Jesus is teaching in Matthew 18. Why can't you believe Jesus?

Matt 18:14
14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones (v.6) should be lost.
NIV
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You just proved you don't understand why Jesus told the Jews about being a Shepherd by parable who knows about the duties of what a shepherd is all about.
 
R

Rufus

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Niki7 said:
reminds me of

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Your stupid question deserved an equally inane reply. Just because someone has largely been self-taught does not mean that on his truth-seeking journey he never changed his mind on prior beliefs. That is what a journey is all about. Discovering new things and broadening understandings of older things.
 
R

Rufus

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FollowerofShiloh said:
You just proved you don't understand why Jesus told the Jews about being a Shepherd by parable who knows about the duties of what a shepherd is all about.
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So, I take it you're not going to going to give us your exposition of Mat 18:1-14 for us? You're just going to buffet the wind with your fists for us with your bluster about how much I supposedly don't know? That's your exposition? :rolleyes:
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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Rufus said:
So, I take it you're not going to going to give us your exposition of Mat 18:1-14 for us? You're just going to buffet the wind with your fists for us with your bluster about how much I supposedly don't know? That's your exposition? :rolleyes:
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I will in a few minutes I am already involved in a discussion before you quoted me (y)
I want to carefully read Matthew 18:1-14.
 
Niki7

Niki7

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Rufus said:
Your stupid question deserved an equally inane reply. Just because someone has largely been self-taught does not mean that on his truth-seeking journey he never changed his mind on prior beliefs. That is what a journey is all about. Discovering new things and broadening understandings of older things.
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We are all self taught more than you might think. Some have no choice but to study for their very survival and God allows it because He knows that by His Spirit He can lead them on their journey in truth and not the watered down version that is handed out so often in church.

Some, have learned to love the word because it is the light on their path....the means of keeping their feet in the right direction and not be sidetracked by all the false prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, self-agrandising liars that always seem to gather itching ears to themselves and various and sundry other things that distract from what is true.

And of course since God knows each of us better than we know ourselves, there are many ways He encourages because Jesus is the Good Shepherd and God sent Him to us and continues to point to Him as the One who is the way, the Truth and the LIfe.

A person not led of the Holy Spirit has the definite and distinct attribute of turning hearts to stone. Without the Holy Spirit, even the Bible becomes just more words.

63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64However, there are some of you who do not believe.” John 6
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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Rufus said:
So, I take it you're not going to going to give us your exposition of Mat 18:1-14 for us? You're just going to buffet the wind with your fists for us with your bluster about how much I supposedly don't know? That's your exposition? :rolleyes:
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There's 3 Parables here. Which one is the point you want to discuss?
 
R

Rufus

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Niki7 said:
We are all self taught more than you might think. Some have no choice but to study for their very survival and God allows it because He knows that by His Spirit He can lead them on their journey in truth and not the watered down version that is handed out so often in church.

Some, have learned to love the word because it is the light on their path....the means of keeping their feet in the right direction and not be sidetracked by all the false prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, self-agrandising liars that always seem to gather itching ears to themselves and various and sundry other things that distract from what is true.

And of course since God knows each of us better than we know ourselves, there are many ways He encourages because Jesus is the Good Shepherd and God sent Him to us and continues to point to Him as the One who is the way, the Truth and the LIfe.

A person not led of the Holy Spirit has the definite and distinct attribute of turning hearts to stone. Without the Holy Spirit, even the Bible becomes just more words.

63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64However, there are some of you who do not believe.” John 6
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Odd choice of words, as though studying and meditating on God's Word is something less than desirable. I think those who hunger and thirst for righteousness would desire nothing less than to be immersed in the scriptures -- daily!
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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Rufus said:
Three? If you say so. :ROFL: Hey...the ball is in your court. Run with it anyway you want. I have already given my take on the passage in 5119.
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18:
1-6 = humbleness
7-9 = temptation and avoidance of temptation
10-14 = Lost Sheep (Israel)
15-20 = Those who sin against you
 
Niki7

Niki7

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Rufus said:
Odd choice of words, as though studying and meditating on God's Word is something less than desirable. I think those who hunger and thirst for righteousness would desire nothing less than to be immersed in the scriptures -- daily!
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I would not have expected you to understand. I am sure others do though.
 
R

Rufus

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FollowerofShiloh said:
It only mentions 1 lost sheep.
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Okay...let's start with the one: The one's life was preserved or not?

But I think it would behoove us to stick with the reality of what the passage is teaching. The parable portion of the passage of Mat 18 does speak to only 1 lost critter (vv. 12-13) but the larger context (v.14), in which Jesus implicitly likens his Father to the shepherd, and which "the little ones who believe in me [Christ]" (v. 6) are parallel to the 100 sheep, does not. How did you miss these verses? This being the case, then, how can not this passage be teaching the doctrine of the Preservation of the Saints since those "little ones" who believe in Christ have Jesus' Father for a Shepherd who is not willing that any of any of them perish (be lost)? I think it's a wee bit improbable that the Father would limit his infinite love, grace, mercy and compassion for his elect sheep by purposing in eternity to rescue, preserve and save only one of the lost "little ones" if it ever strayed from the flock.

P.S. Sorry for the delay in responding but had a long day as an outpatient in a hospital surgery room.
 
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Rufus

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Niki7 said:
I would not have expected you to understand. I am sure others do though.
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I pay attention to words: "Some have no choice but to study for their very survival and God allows it..."

Your words clearly convey the idea that this kind of experience or situation is an inferior option to others. And God even "allows" this inferior option. But all throughout scripture, in a sundry of ways, God's people are exhorted and even commanded to study and meditate on the Word. What better way is there to become a learned disciple of the Lord and to grow in grace and the knowledge of the Lord?
 
P

PaulThomson

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Rufus said:
Three things: Are the New Covenant promises of God in these two central OT passages (Jer 31 and Ezek 36) bilateral or unilateral? Conditional or unconditional?

Secondly, what were the conditions under which God loved (chose) Jacob and hated (rejected) Esau in Rom 9?

And lastly, why can't the biblical doctrine of Unconditional Election be referring solely to the absolute and total moral/spiritual bankruptcy of sinners to teach us that there is no good thing inherent in any sinner that would warrant God's attraction to him?

This last question is extremely important because I can actually sympathize with your expressed concern. That question, however, does not preclude the possibility that God's election of sinners in eternity was also Conditional -- but if so in an entirely different sense. The only person it could be found in is the Last Adam. Mankind's salvation is conditioned only on his perfect obedience to his Father's will in every respect and at all times. (Meditate on Rom 5:12ff.) So, what we have here is, yet, another profound paradox in scripture.
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Are the New Covenant promises of God in these two central OT passages (Jer 31 and Ezek 36) bilateral or unilateral? Conditional or unconditional?
Bilateral. The text does not say whether they are conditional or not.

Secondly, what were the conditions under which God loved (chose) Jacob and hated (rejected) Esau in Rom 9?
Esau the patriarch eventually submitted to God's election of Esau to serve the younger Jacob, and God blessed that Esau. Esau's descendants departed from their patriarch's godly submission and sought to destroy Jacob's descendants. Those were the conditions under which God declared 800 years later through Malachi, that he loved (would preserve) Jacob, despite Jacob's rebellion, and had hated (had destroyed) Esau for His rebellion.

And lastly, why can't the biblical doctrine of Unconditional Election be referring solely to the absolute and total moral/spiritual bankruptcy of sinners to teach us that there is no good thing inherent in any sinner that would warrant God's attraction to him?

Because the doctrine of Unconditional Election is not biblical. There is the light of God in every man that attracts God to all men as potential saints and children of God, if they are willing to stop distrusting God and to begin trusting Him. Also the doctrine of the total moral/spiritual bankruptcy of sinners is not biblical.
 
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