Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[FollowerofShiloh]

"We are this and that because God chose US [to be] in Him before the foundation of the world. And God also "predestined US to be adopted as his sons through Christ Jesus". It wasn't Jesus who was predestined to be adopted.

There's nothing you won't do to support your personal version of the Gospel, is there?

We are Nothing if God did not choose us to be in Jesus.
So Jesus is the key here.
Why are we anything?
We are in Jesus is why.
Jesus is who is predestined.
Jesus is the Plan of Salvation to make us holy, blameless, and adopted sons.

 

[Rufus]

It says we are holy and blameless and adopted sons because of Jesus.
This is what was predestined.
That Believers would be holy and blameless and adopted sons because of Jesus.
So Jesus is the only One who is predestined here to fulfill all of these things for us.

Nope, the passage most definitely does not say that. We are to be holy and blameless and adopted BECAUSE God chose US...IN HIM... (i..e. to be in Him) before the creation of the world. And we're God's adopted sons BECAUSE he predestined us to be such through Jesus Christ in accordance with his pleasure and will. Easy peasy. No great feats of mental gymnastics needed.

 

[Rufus]

We are Nothing if God did not choose us to be in Jesus.
So Jesus is the key here.
Why are we anything?
We are in Jesus is why.
Jesus is who is predestined.
Jesus is the Plan of Salvation to make us holy, blameless, and adopted sons.

That still doesn't the fact that God chose certain people to be in Jesus. You just admitted that God chose us to be in Jesus. Thanks for making my case and Bob's.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Nope, the passage most definitely does not say that. We are to be holy and blameless and adopted BECAUSE God chose US...IN HIM... (i..e. to be in Him) before the creation of the world. And we're God's adopted sons BECAUSE he predestined us to be such through Jesus Christ in accordance with his pleasure and will. Easy peasy. No great feats of mental gymnastics needed.

I just added what all we are in your many verses. Even you should not be so blind.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

That still doesn't the fact that God chose certain people to be in Jesus. You just admitted that God chose us to be in Jesus. Thanks for making my case and Bob's.

It just says us.
US can be anyone.
It only means you because you say it means you.
But I read no names anywhere.

 

[Rufus]

It just says us.
US can be anyone.
It only means you because you say it means you.
But I read no names anywhere.

Oh...."US" can be anyone on the planet, heh? is that why Paul's epistle is called the Book of Ephesians....because it was written to everyone and anyone under the sun? Or do all theologians recognize, and for good reason, that his letter was addressed to a specific Church in Asia Minor?

Eph 1:1
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
NIV

You really don't care for context much, do you?

Now you're going to have us believe, next ,that God chose the whole world to be in Christ? That He predestined every man, woman and child on the planet to be his adopted sons and daughters? Is Universal Salvation in your grab bag of tricks, also?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Oh...."US" can be anyone on the planet, heh? is that why Paul's epistle is called the Book of Ephesians....because it was written to everyone and anyone under the sun? Or do all theologians recognize, and for good reason, that his letter was addressed to a specific Church in Asia Minor?

Eph 1:1
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
NIV

You really don't care for context much, do you?

Now you're going to have us believe, next ,that God chose the whole world to be in Christ? That He predestined every man, woman and child on the planet to be his adopted sons and daughters? Is Universal Salvation in your grab bag of tricks, also?

Ephesians 1:4-7 is written to ...found in verse 1 ...To the saints who are in Ephesus,...

Let's see what Jesus said about the Church in Ephesus in Revelation:

2:1 To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
5 Remember therefore whence thou hast fallen, and repent and do the first works: else, I am coming to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, unless thou repent.

 

[Rufus]

Ephesians 1:4-7 is written to ...found in verse 1 ...To the saints who are in Ephesus,...

Let's see what Jesus said about the Church in Ephesus in Revelation:

2:1 To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
5 Remember therefore whence thou hast fallen, and repent and do the first works: else, I am coming to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, unless thou repent.

So, Jesus, like Paul at an earlier date, also addressed one of his epistles to Ephesus, as opposed to anyone or everyone in the world.

Also, the issue here is WHO not WHAT. To WHOM did Paul write his Ephesian epistle? Nice slight of hand attempt, though...

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

So, Jesus, like Paul at an earlier date, also addressed one of his epistles to Ephesus, as opposed to anyone or everyone in the world.

Also, the issue here is WHO not WHAT. To WHOM did Paul write his Ephesian epistle? Nice slight of hand attempt, though...

You clearly do not understand why I mentioned this.
I would think a person who you claim is predestined could Never find themselves being threatened by God to Repent or Else.

Just showing that your predestined doctrine is full of Holes.

Like I said, the only One predestined in that Epistle is Jesus, not the Believers themselves.

 

[BillyBob]

But it all says Jesus who we are predestined to be blameless, righteous, adopted through.
None of it says we did it on our own.
It just shows Jesus is how we are able to be these things because it was Jesus who was predestined to accomplish these things for us.

We are this and that because being in Him (Jesus) and through Him (Jesus) is what it all claims.

I have no idea what version of the Bible you study from, but I think you need to throw it out and get an accurate one! Then re-read what is proclaimed and pay attention to the words WE and US. Who are these words referring to?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I have no idea what version of the Bible you study from, but I think you need to throw it out and get an accurate one! Then re-read what is proclaimed and pay attention to the words WE and US. Who are these words referring to?

In those terms "us, we"... how do they become holy, blameless, adopted sons of God?
By Jesus is how.
And before the foundation of the Earth, God established how us and we would become these things.
By Jesus.
So Jesus was predestined to "be the how" we can become holy, blameless, and adopted sons of God.

 

[Rufus]

In those terms "us, we"... how do they become holy, blameless, adopted sons of God?
By Jesus is how.
And before the foundation of the Earth, God established how us and we would become these things.
By Jesus.
So Jesus was predestined to "be the how" we can become holy, blameless, and adopted sons of God.

HOW? By God predestining the elect in eternity to be IN CHRIST. He predestined his elect to have their IDENTITY in Christ, as opposed to having their identity in the devil. The elect have their spiritual identity in the Woman's ultimate godly seed -- Christ! There's no text in scripture that says that the Son was predestined by the Father to do anything or become anything.

 

[BillyBob]

In those terms "us, we"... how do they become holy, blameless, adopted sons of God?
By Jesus is how.
And before the foundation of the Earth, God established how us and we would become these things.
By Jesus.
So Jesus was predestined to "be the how" we can become holy, blameless, and adopted sons of God.

I wish that I could thank you for your input. But, as it is, we are so far apart on our understanding of scripture that we should cease to argue. It is pointless to go on because we will never agree.

 

[Rufus]

You clearly do not understand why I mentioned this.
I would think a person who you claim is predestined could Never find themselves being threatened by God to Repent or Else.

Just showing that your predestined doctrine is full of Holes.

Like I said, the only One predestined in that Epistle is Jesus, not the Believers themselves.

Yeah, I do know why: It's just another misdirection tactic of yours. You so easily forget that the Catholic (universal) Church of Christ is filled with tares sporting spurious faith. But this doesn't change the irrefutable fact that Paul's epistle to the Ephesians was actually addressed to them and not to the world at large as you claimed earlier.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I wish that I could thank you for your input. But, as it is, we are so far apart on our understanding of scripture that we should cease to argue. It is pointless to go on because we will never agree.

Don't know why?

You use words like us and we.

But it clearly says us in HIM or verse 5 spells it out plainly ...he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ

It's all done by and through Jesus.
So Jesus is the Source.
He is what is predestined so us and we can be holy, blameless even how we can be adopted.


You really just like thinking God is sending people to hell but chose you.
Do you know how pitiful that is?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yeah, I do know why: It's just another misdirection tactic of yours. You so easily forget that the Catholic (universal) Church of Christ is filled with tares sporting spurious faith. But this doesn't change the irrefutable fact that Paul's epistle to the Ephesians was actually addressed to them and not to the world at large as you claimed earlier.

I am Jewish, RC Catholics are like natural born enemies to me (Rome)... figuratively RCC..

This still is TRUTH:
I would think a person who you claim is predestined could Never find themselves being threatened by God to Repent or Else.

Just showing that your predestined doctrine is full of Holes.

Like I said, the only One predestined in that Epistle is Jesus, not the Believers themselves.

 

[Rufus]

I wish that I could thank you for your input. But, as it is, we are so far apart on our understanding of scripture that we should cease to argue. It is pointless to go on because we will never agree.

Yes...the Shiloh's of this world will very rarely come to see our biblical viewpoint. Only by the sheer grace of God will one very rarely see. After all, NRs never view themselves as being in a desperate, helpless spiritual condition in need of being rescued. Paul told the Colossians that God had rescued them and Paul himself from the devil's dominion of darkness and brought them into the kingdom of Christ (Col 1:13). But what is a little darkness among friends? Blindness from birth is no big deal. Blind people can fend for themselves and don't need any rescuing by anyone even though they hate the Light and won't come to it. They love the darkness because their deeds are evil. Very, very, few will ever see their need to be rescued from something they love so much. Paul had a name for this: The Deceitfulness of Sin.

 

[Rufus]

I am Jewish, RC Catholics are like natural born enemies to me (Rome)... figuratively RCC..

This still is TRUTH:
I would think a person who you claim is predestined could Never find themselves being threatened by God to Repent or Else.

Just showing that your predestined doctrine is full of Holes.

Like I said, the only One predestined in that Epistle is Jesus, not the Believers themselves.

Then keep believing that lie! God doesn't predestine the whole world to salvation in Christ. He only predestined those whom he [fore]KNEW in eternity. And those he predestined he called. And those he called He justified. And those he justified he glorified. End of story. If God predestined the entire world, how come Jesus didn't pray for the entire world in John 17? Why wouldn't the world's High Priest pray for all those God gave to him?

 

[Rufus]

I am Jewish, RC Catholics are like natural born enemies to me (Rome)... figuratively RCC..

This still is TRUTH:
I would think a person who you claim is predestined could Never find themselves being threatened by God to Repent or Else.

Just showing that your predestined doctrine is full of Holes.

Like I said, the only One predestined in that Epistle is Jesus, not the Believers themselves.

As I said earlier, the Tares of the Church are everywhere. And this, too, is God's will, if you recall Jesus' words on the matter. Very many want to enter the kingdom of God on their terms instead of by the narrow door. But on the last day, Jesus will them that he never knew them!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Then keep believing that lie! God doesn't predestine the whole world to salvation in Christ. He only predestined those whom he [fore]KNEW in eternity. And those he predestined he called. And those he called He justified. And those he justified he glorified. End of story. If God predestined the entire world, how come Jesus didn't pray for the entire world in John 17? Why wouldn't the world's High Priest pray for all those God gave to him?

God fore knew every human being.
I never said God predestined everyone because I believe God predestined Jesus so everyone could be saved through Him.