Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[PaulThomson]

I added it for clarification since we're time-bound creatures. I know fully well God chose his people in Christ in eternity. All his elect were in Him before time began. Of course, what God decreed in eternity WILL in the future come to past.

No. You added it to make the text seem to more closely conform to your calvinist dogma. If you are a temporal creature, you can have no idea whether there is any other kind of existence other than temporal existence.

The syllogism -

1. Humans are temporal beings.
And 2. God is a different kind of being to humans.
Therefore, 3. God is not temporal -

is not logically valid. The premises 1 and 2 do not lead to the conclusion. It has the same problem as the following -

1 Humans have blood.
And 2. a cat is a different kind of animal to humans.
Therefore, 3. cats do not have blood.

You cannot assume God is not temporal just because we are temporal and He is different. His differences could lie in attributes other than temporality., and He would still be different.


When the Trinity chose the Son to be the first-born among many human siblings, God intended that those who would later trust in the Son, though yet unnamed and unidentified, would be the ones God would make into the Son's many siblings. This is why Paul says that the saints that are in Ephesus and are faithful to Christ Jesus (Eph. 1:1) God chose in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before God in love (Eph. 1:4), and predestined them o be adopted at the resurrection and to reign with Christ as mature sons and daughters. (Eph. 1:5)

 

[BillyBob]

What have you ever done whether good or evil, that you believe God did not decree it, did not empower you to do it, and did not put the desire into your heart to want to do it?

We all come into this world as fallen creatures. Sin and the desire to sin clings to us because of the failure of the 1st Adam. Our Desires come from a corrupt heart because of the fall. After being saved our desires change but sin still clings to us. We are not yet perfected!
If there is anything that we are capable of without God's help – it would be to disobey our God and creator – just as Adam did! And who placed this desire to sin into our heart? Satan, not God! God allows Satan to temp us, but not to the point of no return...

 

[Rufus]

No. You added it to make the text seem to more closely conform to your calvinist dogma. If you are a temporal creature, you can have no idea whether there is any other kind of existence other than temporal existence.

The syllogism -

1. Humans are temporal beings.
And 2. God is a different kind of being to humans.
Therefore, 3. God is not temporal -

is not logically valid. The premises 1 and 2 do not lead to the conclusion. It has the same problem as the following -

1 Humans have blood.
And 2. a cat is a different kind of animal to humans.
Therefore, 3. cats do not have blood.

You cannot assume God is not temporal just because we are temporal and He is different. His differences could lie in attributes other than temporality., and He would still be different.


When the Trinity chose the Son to be the first-born among many human siblings, God intended that those who would later trust in the Son, though yet unnamed and unidentified, would be the ones God would make into the Son's many siblings. This is why Paul says that the saints that are in Ephesus and are faithful to Christ Jesus (Eph. 1:1) God chose in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before God in love (Eph. 1:4), and predestined them o be adopted at the resurrection and to reign with Christ as mature sons and daughters. (Eph. 1:5)

Oy Vey! The syllogism I bolded is pure garbage How is God fundamentally different from his creation!? He is the SELF-EXISTING ONE! He is the Great I AM! Are we self-existing or created beings? Therefore, God is not a temporal being. He is an ETERNAL being who transcends all his creation, including Time.

 

[PaulThomson]

On the other hand, believers are now the children of God. So...there is that...

But not yet adopted in the first century sense. It when we believe and have been justified by faith that we are then predestined to be comformed to the image of the Son and we are also then predestined adoption as siblings at the resurrection..

 

[PaulThomson]

Oy Vey! The syllogism I bolded is pure garbage How is God fundamentally different from his creation!? He is the SELF-EXISTING ONE! He is the Great I AM! Are we self-existing or created beings? Therefore, God is not a temporal being. He is an ETERNAL being who transcends all his creation, including Time.

That is garbage reasoning. God's self-existence does not in any way necessitate atemporality.

 

[PaulThomson]

You still don't get it. I totally believe in the Sovereignty of God, and that he not only sustains this universe by his power moment by moment, but that he directs the hearts of the sons of men (sinners and saints alike) as he pleases -- and this without violating man's free moral agency. How he does these things is beyond human comprehension just like the Trinity is, or the Incarnation of Christ -- yet I believe even what I can't comprehend.

You can't get away with claiming that everything you do good and evil is decreed by God, empowered by God and induced by God, and avoid the logical conclusion but adding an incomprehensible caveat "and this without violating man's free moral agency.. How he does these things is beyond human comprehension."

 

[Rufus]

This morning as I was having my devotions, I was reminded that both King David and the Son of David were "Calvinists". First, David wrote:

Ps 65:4a
4 Blessed are those you choose
and bring near to live in your courts!
NIV

And then his Son said many centuries later:

John 5:21
21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
NIV

How odd. I thought we mere mortals are in charge of our eternal destiny? How often are told that it's ultimately our choice to make between living in the heavenly courts of God or in the hell prepared for the devil and his horde? And isn't eternal life supposed to be our own ultimate choice, as well? Don't we get to choose between life and death? Yet, Jesus didn't say he gives life to whoever wants it.

 

[Rufus]

That is garbage reasoning. God's self-existence does not in any way necessitate atemporality.

God's self-existence precludes him from creating himself and thus becoming just another component of temporal reality.

 

[Rufus]

You can't get away with claiming that everything you do good and evil is decreed by God, empowered by God and induced by God, and avoid the logical conclusion but adding an incomprehensible caveat "and this without violating man's free moral agency.. How he does these things is beyond human comprehension."

Oh...so you can understand the deep things of God, can you? The secret things of God? The supernatural? Eternity? Got a good handle on all these and more, right?

It's no wonder you cannot believe the Doctrines of Grace that are taught in the Word. You really are full of yourself, aren't you?

 

[PaulThomson]

God's self-existence precludes him from creating himself and thus becoming just another component of temporal reality.

I don't think God created Himself. That is a foolish concept. He would have to already exist to create Himself. How does one create something that already exists?

He has always been a component of temporal reality. I think you are equivocating over the meaning of temporal here though.

 

[PaulThomson]

Oh...so you can understand the deep things of God, can you? The secret things of God? The supernatural? Eternity? Got a good handle on all these and more, right?

It's no wonder you cannot believe the Doctrines of Grace that are taught in the Word. You really are full of yourself, aren't you?

The one who is full of himself is the one who thinks that because he cannot understand something, no one can.

Maybe some things of God appear deep to you because you are extremely shallow. Sometimes one has to let go of errors one has embraced before he can see what is really quite simple to grasp. But you are unwilling to let go your traditions of men.

 

[Rufus]

I don't think God created Himself. That is a foolish concept. He would have to already exist to create Himself. How does one create something that already exists?

He has always been a component of temporal reality. I think you are equivocating over the meaning of temporal here though.

No, God transcends his creation, just as the Potter transcends his clay pots. How can he ALWAYS have been a component of temporal reality when temporal reality, unlike its Creator, didn't ALWAYS exist!? The very first definition of the term "temporal" in my M-W Collegiate says: "of or relating to time as opposed to eternity" (emphasis mine).

 

[Rufus]

The one who is full of himself is the one who thinks that because he cannot understand something, no one can.

Maybe some things of God appear deep to you because you are extremely shallow. Sometimes one has to let go of errors one has embraced before he can see what is really quite simple to grasp. But you are unwilling to let go your traditions of men.

Oh...goodie. We have an intellectual giant in our midst. Perhaps our resident genius will explain the Trinity to us?

 

[PaulThomson]

No, God transcends his creation, just as the Potter transcends his clay pots. How can he ALWAYS have been a component of temporal reality when temporal reality, unlike its Creator, didn't ALWAYS exist!? The very first definition of the term "temporal" in my M-W Collegiate says: "of or relating to time as opposed to eternity" (emphasis mine).

You are equivocating over the meaning of temporal. I am using it as the opposite of atemporal. You are using it as the opposite of spiritual. If God is temporal, i.e. not atemporal, then reality has always been temporal reality.

 

[PaulThomson]

Oh...goodie. We have an intellectual giant in our midst. Perhaps our resident genius will explain the Trinity to us?

You don't need to be an intellectual giant to understand simple things. You have to be willing to come to God as a child to be taught.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You're totally shot. You don't even remember what you wrote yesterday:

"God fore knew every human being."

So, now you're going to say "every human being" is only some human beings? Gonna sing a different tune now, are you?

Only in YOUR mind is what you post make sense.

God is CREATOR of ALL things. How can He not Fore-know someone?

This alerts me that YOU have no idea what fore-know even means.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Correct. The called, chosen and faithful will be adopted at the resurrection to reign with Christ over His inherited world.

We see many hear Stephen preach the Gospel and harden their hearts to kill him.
We see many Peter preaches the Gospel and they accept God.
So we know you can hear the Gospel and Believe or Reject it.

But the real question is...
Wasn't it God who made sure ALL of those people Heard the Gospel to give them a chance to Believe?

YES, It WAS!

So the Chosen and Elect only means those who CHOOSE to Believe because MANY will HEAR the Gospel!

It also means All of those people were PREDESTINED to Hear the Gospel.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

My memory is fine thank you. But originally you did not claim that the recipients of Paul's letter was the Ephesian Church. You said this about the "us" in your 5265:

Shiloh said:
It just says us.
US can be anyone.
It only means you because you say it means you.
But I read no names anywhere.

So, who is the one with the memory issue here? And I'm being very kind by limiting your problem to mere senility or too many dead memory cells.

I was baiting you because I knew you did not connect Ephesus was same Ephesus that Jesus Commanded and Threatened.

 

[Rufus]

Only in YOUR mind is what you post make sense.

God is CREATOR of ALL things. How can He not Fore-know someone?

This alerts me that YOU have no idea what fore-know even means.

Sounds to me like you have a big issue with the Big Guy you always believe. Better take it up with him.

Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you . Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV

I mean what part of "never" don't you get? Or maybe we have another huge theological problem -- this one with the divinity of Christ. Can the Son of God be fully God if he isn't omniscient -- even in his preincarnate state and post-resurrection, glorified state? Or how 'bout this "novel" idea: You don't have the first clue of what scripture means when it says that God [fore]knew people?

 

[Rufus]

I was baiting you because I knew you did not connect Ephesus was same Ephesus that Jesus Commanded and Threatened.

Yeah sure. In other words, you lied to bait me. In fact, you lied twice: once in your 5265 and then again when you denied you said what you did in that post. Very "Christian" of you.