Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Grandpa]

Greetings lightbearer,

what we are seeing today is a reflection of;

Exo 20:18-21 KJV And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. (19) And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. (20) And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. (21) And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.


Mt Siani was 50 days after Passover. It was the Pentecost of old, the time they were to receive the Holy Spirit in order to receive the Laws/Commandments of God upon their hearts. Instead they "stood afar off" "lest we die" Today the long awaited promise to write His Laws upon their hearts was to be fulfilled at Pentecost. We have an account of that in Acts. Each and every man must fact that "death" when the Holy Spirit overwrites our hearts with His Laws. wipes the hard drive in a manner of speaking.

So, those who resist the Torah are essentially resisting the Holy Spirit! They are those who "work without the Law" Matt 7:23
Unless they go through their Pentecost and stop resisting the renewing work of the Holy Spirit, perhaps the most terrifying part of the entire process, they are doomed never to know Jesus or The Heavenly Father!

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John 5:38-40
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


The Lord says its not Torah that saves. Its coming to Christ that Saves.

Its not those who work at the law who are righteous. It is those who come to Christ, who Christ Knows, that are Righteous.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Galatians 2:19 is a direct contradiction to what you just said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come in the volume of the book it is written of me, to do thy will, O God.

Psalm 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Psalm 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God yea, thy law is within my heart.

What did the volume of the book contain? Cause that's what He brought. Which was but a shadow of what was to come, not what was to be done away with.

Probably everything in the first 5 books of the bible?

You think it was mosaic law?

Remember, the same author in the same book said sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire.. So if his desire was to do the law. Then he would have offered sacrifice and burnt offering for his sin, He showed he understood the law. And how it was a tutur. And was not the end all means to salvation. Or righteousness.

But he. LIKE ALL OF US. Wanted to live a life which was a righteous life. Knowing that if we follow this lifestyle. We will not by nature break the law..

Something most lawyers have yet to figure out

 

[NayborBear]

I think we are on the same page. Paul added (at least the eating meat sacrificed to idols part) for the weaker believers so that the more mature believers don't cause them to stumble. And all of this boils down to love thy neighbor as thyself.

The only thing I disagree with is this:



It was lawful for Paul (and anyone else) to eat meat sacrificed to idols because as you said earlier in your post above - an idol is nothing.

Paul advises not to eat the meat because it could make the weaker believer fall.

Anyway thanks for giving your insight, much appreciated.

This can and has over the years, been a "slippery slope" towards "legalism." Not to mention "traditions of man."

An "EXTREME" example here!
"Your BREATHING AIR, is causing me to "stumble!" Sez the "tare" to the "wheat."
Ugh! Mebbe, not SO extreme at all, eh?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Can a "carnal" man understand "Spiritual Things"?

Can a "carnal" man desire "Spiritual Things"?

Does a "carnal" man resist "Spiritual Things"?

 

[DeighAnn]

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not JUSTIFIED by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be JUSTIFIED by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be JUSTIFIED .
Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be JUSTIFIED by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Galatians 2:18 FOR if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Galatians 2:19 FOR I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God FOR JUSTIFICATION

 

[Grandpa]

Can a "carnal" man understand "Spiritual Things"?

If that carnal man has been to Christ he can.

Can a "carnal" man desire "Spiritual Things"?

Yes. But that carnal man may not know what "Spiritual Things" are.

Does a "carnal" man resist "Spiritual Things"?

Yes. That is the epitome of carnal.

A carnal man thinks he can work towards salvation and righteousness.

A carnal man thinks its all about him, his will, his choices and his work.


The spiritual man knows that he is near spiritual bankruptcy and must come to Christ for all his blessings and provision, spiritually speaking.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can a "carnal" man understand "Spiritual Things"?

Can a "carnal" man desire "Spiritual Things"?

Does a "carnal" man resist "Spiritual Things"?

The word carnal in the greek is the root word sarx. Sark translated means flesh.

So . What does this mean? It means a person who is in the flesh. Or who at that point of time is thinking of self. And not about others.

A non believer is always in the flesh. Because it is his or her nature They are carnal (fleshly) because they are without God and are by nature REQUIRED to take care of their own needs. So the answer for th none believer on all three questions, is no, they can not desire spiritual things (in fact they are foolishness to him) which means they can not understand spiritual things, and finally, they always resist spiritual things, because of the above two

But as paul tells us in romans 7, Even a child of God can be carnally minded. All that means is that at that point of time, for whatever reason, they focus has turned from loving and serving God and others, and focused on self. So as paul said they do not do the things they want to do. But they things they do not want to do they do.

So in answer to your questions concerning a carnal believer.

1. Yes they can understand spiritual things (they know what they are doing)
2. At this point of time, since their mind is focused on self. Their desire is to do carnal things (self) not spiritual things (others)
3. Because of number 2, The carnal christian resists spiritual things.

Yet they are STILL christian.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not JUSTIFIED by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be JUSTIFIED by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be JUSTIFIED .
Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be JUSTIFIED by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Galatians 2:18 FOR if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Galatians 2:19 FOR I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God FOR JUSTIFICATION

Ahh thank you

You just proved eternal security.. without even knowing it

 

[SimpleGardner]

If that carnal man has been to Christ he can.


Yes. But that carnal man may not know what "Spiritual Things" are.


Yes. That is the epitome of carnal.

A carnal man thinks he can work towards salvation and righteousness.

A carnal man thinks its all about him, his will, his choices and his work.


The spiritual man knows that he is near spiritual bankruptcy and must come to Christ for all his blessings and provision, spiritually speaking.

Rom 8:6-8 KJV For to be carnally minded is death;
but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:
for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Takes a lot of "wrestling of the scriptures to delink the "carnal mind" and "not subject to the Laws of God"

Like Peter talked about in 2 Peter 3:16.

Or even more "wrestling" to link "spiritual minded" with "not subject to the Laws of God"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Rom 8:6-8 KJV For to be carnally minded is death;
but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:
for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Of course they can not please God

Their focus is on self. Not others.

And because of this, The result is death or a life whihc is dead, which does not produce fruit. And is lacking in blessing, not to mention, the result of sin and the damage that causes to the person who is in the flesh)

 

[Grandpa]

Rom 8:6-8 KJV For to be carnally minded is death;
but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:
for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Takes a lot of "wrestling of the scriptures to delink the "carnal mind" and "not subject to the Laws of God"

Like Peter talked about in 2 Peter 3:16.

Or even more "wrestling" to link "spiritual minded" with "not subject to the Laws of God"

It's pretty easy to show how the carnal mind still works at the law even though it is not and CAN NOT be subject to it.

Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

So to be carnally minded is to try to work at the law. For whatever reason or whatever excuse. Even though that is NOT the way to attain righteousness.

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Wouldn't the error of the wicked be following after the law of righteousness by working at it? Instead of attaining Righteousness by faith in Christ?

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[posthuman]

I am just pointing out that a statement like that would never need to be made, if the law had indeed been taken away. I believe the law is as alive as ever, as opposed to dead.

It's us who have died. Colossians 3:3
Thereby we are not under the jurisdiction of the law. Romans 7:1
Thereby there is no more condemnation for us. Romans 8:1

It is through our death - which is shared with Him in His death - that we have life, raised with Him in His resurrection. Romans 6:8

thats the fundamentals of the working of salvation. It's the reason we all got baptized. It is how we came to be found in Him and how we were made partakers of the Spirit.

That's why I'm like, all this 'law law law' stuff - - do y'all not even know what the gospel is? We died. The law does not even apply. Not one jot or tittle has to be removed for the law to have absolutely no more power whatsoever over a dead man or woman. It is the beautiful simplicity of His perfect Redemption.

But then these 'not one jot or tittle' folks, they remove all kinds of jots and tittles. 'the whole congregation must put to death a sabbath breaker'? That's a command made of jots and tittles. You can't just spiritualuze that away while saying you're under it as a commandment. You have to delete the jots and the tittles. Physical circumcision. Jots and tittles. You can't pretend Christians are under the law and read Galatians. You just can't. It's duplicitous, ignorant or both. The blood of bulls and goats. Jots. Tittles.

Just as ridiculous is this ever present accusation 'you who claim you aren't under the law love your sin and hate righteousness' - that's ignorance. That's false. That's pretending there is no such thing as the gospel.

 

[PERFECTION]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

You do understand that if you submit yourself to the Law of Moses atonement for your transgressions requires a blood sacrifice?
However if you submit yourself to the law of righteousness, which is a much higher law, the atonement for ALL your transgressions has been completed. There will never be another sacrifice for the sins of man. Submitting yourself to the law of righteousness will free you from condemnation and allow you to live your life thru conviction.There should never be a moment in a christians life when they cannot speak directly to the Master not a moment.

 

[NayborBear]

I've already cleared it up at least three times. It IS a good point that you've brought up.

But it ignores this;
Romans 14:1-5
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

So where's the median point between that and this?;

Galatians 3:10-12
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


I believe it is right here;

1 Timothy 1:5-10
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


So, what do you tell a legalist, who doesn't understand what they say nor affirm when they are trying to show all their excuses for working at the law?

Do you show them Romans 14 or do you show them Galatians 3? Don't they have to understand Galatians 3 before they can even start to understand Romans 14???

I believe you show Romans 14 to someone who is being possibly overly judgemental on obvious Christians who may be a little weak in the faith. (I know you probably think this applies to me... and I have to admit that it probably does. But shouldn't the weak listen to the strong and try to get stronger in the faith as well??) Where do you draw the line on the weakness of someones faith until it looks as though its non-existent.

You would think that one who is weak in faith wouldn't be teaching others how to be weak in the faith as well, right? I suppose that is where I take exception. I hope you understand.

I believe you show Galatians 3 to all the legalists and judaizers.

Methinnks Grandpa, should you read Ezekiel 40-48, ya might get a clearer picture of what's goin' down in this here thread. And, perhaps not "label" people as "Judizers", or "Leagalist's", so quickly?

 

[SimpleGardner]

It's us who have died. Colossians 3:3
Thereby we are not under the jurisdiction of the law. Romans 7:1
Thereby there is no more condemnation for us. Romans 8:1

It is through our death - which is shared with Him in His death - that we have life, raised with Him in His resurrection. Romans 6:8

thats the fundamentals of the working of salvation. It's the reason we all got baptized. It is how we came to be found in Him and how we were made partakers of the Spirit.

That's why I'm like, all this 'law law law' stuff - - do y'all not even know what the gospel is? We died. The law does not even apply. Not one jot or tittle has to be removed for the law to have absolutely no more power whatsoever over a dead man or woman. It is the beautiful simplicity of His perfect Redemption.

But then these 'not one jot or tittle' folks, they remove all kinds of jots and tittles. 'the whole congregation must put to death a sabbath breaker'? That's a command made of jots and tittles. You can't just spiritualuze that away while saying you're under it as a commandment. You have to delete the jots and the tittles. Physical circumcision. Jots and tittles. You can't pretend Christians are under the law and read Galatians. You just can't. It's duplicitous, ignorant or both. The blood of bulls and goats. Jots. Tittles.

Just as ridiculous is this ever present accusation 'you who claim you aren't under the law love your sin and hate righteousness' - that's ignorance. That's false. That's pretending there is no such thing as the gospel.

There are two options to the Law. The carnal man is under the written Law or the man who seeks after and receives the anointing of the Holy Spirit which then "writes" the Law upon the heart. The Law is always there though!

As Paul put it;

Rom 8:6-11 KJV For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

"Quicken"? quicken us to do what? Be subject to the Law of God!

1Jn 2:3-5 NIV We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. (4) The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (5) But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:

 

[SimpleGardner]

You do understand that if you submit yourself to the Law of Moses atonement for your transgressions requires a blood sacrifice?
However if you submit yourself to the law of righteousness, which is a much higher law, the atonement for ALL your transgressions has been completed. There will never be another sacrifice for the sins of man. Submitting yourself to the law of righteousness will free you from condemnation and allow you to live your life thru conviction.There should never be a moment in a christians life when they cannot speak directly to the Master not a moment.

Greetings P,

Welcome, and like many of us here I pray this forum brings you to a deeper understanding of the scriptures and of the work of the adversary who seeks, as usual, to twist their meaning to separate men from God, so that you may quench the fiery darts.

SG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are two options to the Law. The carnal man is under the written Law or the man who seeks after and receives the anointing of the Holy Spirit which then "writes" the Law upon the heart. The Law is always there though!

As Paul put it;

Rom 8:6-11 KJV For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

"Quicken"? quicken us to do what? Be subject to the Law of God!

1Jn 2:3-5 NIV We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. (4) The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (5) But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:

Carnally minded, or spiritually minded has nothing to do with law

It has to do with a persons focus.

If you think following the law will make you a morally righteous person. You are mistaken.

You need to focus on Christ, THATS the only way you will be a morally upright person..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You do understand that if you submit yourself to the Law of Moses atonement for your transgressions requires a blood sacrifice?
However if you submit yourself to the law of righteousness, which is a much higher law, the atonement for ALL your transgressions has been completed. There will never be another sacrifice for the sins of man. Submitting yourself to the law of righteousness will free you from condemnation and allow you to live your life thru conviction.There should never be a moment in a christians life when they cannot speak directly to the Master not a moment.

Amen

He did nto give us a spirit of fear (which the law requires) but an abba father, and a sound mind.

 

[DeighAnn]

Yet had they followed the law with FAITH, they would have.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith
They knew nothing about living under the law so they accepted Christ through pure faith. And faith come by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. And the laws they followed became law to them.

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Those who were born and raised under the law, didn't catch onto where the law was leading them. They only saw it for the "outer" man, never internalizing, therefore never having come about the changes of the inner man and the love of God all that would produce.

Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone
It would seem that before THE RISEN CHRIST, Faith was NOT a gift, wouldn't it? If it had been the Israel would not have stumbled.

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed
And it was prophecy it would happen.

And what have we now.

now, Jesus is being accepted and but the law is being rejected by the "new Pharisee" type, so limiting them from much of the Word of God. In bondage to a set of rules limiting works, deeds, law, repentance, speech....

And, yet now, there is also those who elect to embrace the Lord Jesus Christ the Saviour, and to embrace the law that allows us to recognize our sins and to "put them away" as we journey toward our Lord God. Free of any bondage to the flesh carnal man, free of any bondage to a law of death, free of any bondage to traditions of man, Free to repent, Free to be washed clean daily, Free to not be perfect because He was and as such is able to offer the blood of infinite value to wash away sin, Free to not fear death, Free to not fear Judgment, Free to use ALL the Word of God.

 

[Leastamongmany]

So the publican was justified by his HUMBLE appeal to God, verses the Pharisee, who BOASTED in his works and was not justified. Doesn't that seem a bit more congruous?

I wish to ask your forgiveness! We started off on the wrong foot,I'm sorry for my offense to you!
You are wise! STAY STRONG!