Did Jesus Have a Political Message?

[Donkeyfish07]

Any attempt at interpolating the gospel of Yeshua, Jesus, with any latter day political theorist (Tolstoy) is revisionist at best and totally unacceptable as an argument supporting the op.
If anyone believes Yeshua, Jesus, has political motivation, I am afraid that person is not yet fit to understand the Word at any level. The dispute here is just that, a dispute and not appropriate for discussion.

I was not interpolating or and your falsely assuming I'm trying to support the OP's assertion on Anarchy. The OP has a point of view on the matter and we're discussing it. I can't say I've read all of Tolstoy's work but I have never seen the man contradict the Gospel. Politics are certainly a separate issue from the gospel but it is the subject of discussion. If you actually read the posts, you would see I'm opposed to mixing politics with the gospel.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

The definition of political would include monarchies, even absolute, however when the Kingdom is the goal there is no longer a political theatre of competition, at least not for anyone who believes the Word.

That's a great way to put it. It's mostly a semantic issue here I think.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

You are right. My friends have been telling me that just by using the word anarchy I create a semantics issue, because people often interpret anarchy as "Do what thou wilt" which, if that were the basis of the idea of how to act, we could suffer dearly if what we want to do is not in line for what God wants us to do.

I can agree that disobeying the government through civil disobedience or any other action does not necessarily make one an anarchist. Are you an anarchist if you pledge allegiance to no political system, but to God? That is a bit more of what I mean. I'm not saying that we should promote anarchy as the system, but that we shoul submit to Go and no other system. Many governments could rise and fall. No governmental ideal system is inherently evil. It becomes corruppted when we use it for evil. If we do not pledge our allegiances to these systems, but to God, we can know more easily when it is time for the "body" of the government to perish and perhaps for us to create a new one if we are still not able to fulfill God's will through every indivual human being.

Problem with that is, we already know we don't ever create a good or utopian system on our own. Things only get worse until the end times/anti christ system comes into full power and Jesus returns. The King of Kings doesn't support Anarchy as a system by any definition of the word. It's more a matter of who you choose to obey.

 

[tribesman]

I'm still not getting how anarchy is a consequence of purification but I'm trying to understand how your perceiving that.

Now regarding the socialistic point of view from your comment, this is exactly why it is never a good idea to try to force political implications on the gospel where there are none. Paraphrasing again "If thou wilt be perfect, sell all your goods and distribute to the poor and come and follow me". Yes, he is instructing the person to sell and distribute their goods if they want to be perfect. Nothing to do with communism. Jesus never tried to take anyone's choice away, however both Socialist and Communist political systems HAVE to make participation involuntary in order to function at all. Communism, as a political system requires the "Abolishment of personal property"...that basically translates to: Take everyone's resources whether they agree or not (Robbery). He didn't say about a classless, stateless society either. Jesus never promoted anything like that. Never promoted communism. He never promoted a social ownership of the means of production either, so he wasn't promoting socialism.

This is why it's never a good idea to try to insert or extract political meaning out of the gospel. Jesus didn't come to earth to teach us politics.....he came to call sinners to repentance and give his life as a ransom for many. He said everything he had to say out in the open and what he teaches is a spiritual path...not a political system.

I believe it is not only absurd but also blasphemy to insinuate that Jesus was the first socialist or promoted socialism as that term is known today. Those who do so most often do it out of mere ignorance about what socialism actually is and when it began to be used as a term and what the foundations (and founders) of it actually represents.

One may think that this extreme anachronism might not be such a big issue but then it is not considered what huge impact marxist thought really has had on modern christianity. That genuine christendom has social consequences is needless to say, but it's a very far cry from the philosophical visions of atheist and even antichristian entities such as the communist, leftist-anarchist or much of the socialist movements.

It is one thing to have such political views and yet be a christian it is another thing entirely to justify such secular thinking with well chosen bible quotes.

 

[homwardbound]

~ I really agree with this scripture, but not necessarily the interpretation of it. I interpret it more like this: Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Bread being that which nourishes the body an the words of Go being that which nourishes the spirit. When we live our lives and tell ourselves in reality that our body of flesh is more important than our spirit, we end up submitting to evil societies for the sake of saving our own bodies. The flesh has been corrupted, but it can be purified through Christ. Christ didn't have sinful flesh. He had the likeness of sinful flesh. He fulfilled God's purpose in the flesh and is an example of how to free ourselves. Jesus denounced all personal wealth and toldd us to have faith that God would provide for our needs, not the State or our jobs or whatever else we say really provides for us. This scripture is saying Jesus set us free from the sin of the flesh. All the scriptures you quoted are not saying that because we are in the flesh we cannot follow God, they are saying that we cannot put the importance of our flesh above the importance of our spirits.

I appreciate, your candor, and tell me what does evil have to do with good (GOD). How can the two be mixed. Flesh to me is emnity towards God, The Law was weakened by sinful flesh, Christ through the cross took that away and condemned all sin to the flesh, so that we might serve in the righteousness of God through the Spirit of God. Father while all sin was being taken away through the Son turned his back for Father can see no sin, this is how Father can now today come to live in the believer through the Holy Ghost.
Anyway you might be saying the same as me and have found him for only God knows, your Spirit testifies to the truth of this as well as mine.
Questions for you first do you believe that the truth will set you free? 2. Are you free or are you in bondage, trying to stop some error like anger as an example.
If one is in bondage there could be error in one's truth and might need to rethink their truth in order to be free as is what Christ came to do. Only I can answer this between God and I and the same is for all others for I know it is only God that can get any of us that believe and that God gas received to stand
So thank you for your discussion here I do learn a lot and listen, as well as speak out too
Homwardbound

 

[homwardbound]

Don't assume that just because I'm not quoting scripture it isn't scriptural. Matthew 5:17
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
~Jesus came in the flesh to fulfill the law. It must be fulfilled in the material realm, because God's law permeates through heaven an earth.

As for free will being unscriptural, God gave free will to Adam and even and told them to choose. That is free will. Had there been no free will the fall could never have happened. Before they fell, they were perfect, so we have obviously have free will when we are perfect or imperfect.

Christ's purpose was to fullfill the Law and Prophetsjust as scripture says, Christ stated this and then went on and proovedhimselfto be the Son of God filled all that he was her in the form of man that was to be done then at the cross he yells out in John 19:30 IT IS FINISHED. What was finished? he fullfilled the law and prophets. he then died now go to hebrews 9:15-17 we are under a new covenant a differant set of rules which are not rules it is now by faith in Christ and through Christ that we are saved and do what God has us the believers to do, and this is walk in God's type of love. 1Cor.13 this is true love

Hebrews 9:15-17
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
The Mediator’s Death Necessary

16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

Homwardbound

 

[kenisyes]

While you are there, you submit to their leadership, as did He.
~I'm not sure Jesus was totally willing to submit to the leadership of the KW. I think the idea behind Christian anarchy is that we have free will given to us by God. Jesus idn't necessarily submit to their power and ideas, I feel, as much as he submitted to their right to act through free will. He does not believe in condemning and putting people in bondage. I don't believe he agrees with political instituitons existing, but to overthrow them is as much of a sin as to use them for bondage.

You notice, I said "while you are there". Jesus never totally submitted. He reserved the right to leave, and to return later in the sky with angels, and the trumpets sounding. That's how we submit also. We let them do their thing, changing what we can, and knowing that we have an eternal life they do not have, and we are part of something way bigger and way more transcendent.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

It is one thing to have such political views and yet be a christian it is another thing entirely to justify such secular thinking with well chosen bible quotes.

Exactly my point. Thank you, that sums up my position on it pretty clearly.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

jesus was not a politician...but jesus -does- call us to represent him in all aspects of our lives...including the political...

 

[zone]

I believe it is not only absurd but also blasphemy to insinuate that Jesus was the first socialist or promoted socialism as that term is known today. Those who do so most often do it out of mere ignorance about what socialism actually is and when it began to be used as a term and what the foundations (and founders) of it actually represents.

One may think that this extreme anachronism might not be such a big issue but then it is not considered what huge impact marxist thought really has had on modern christianity. That genuine christendom has social consequences is needless to say, but it's a very far cry from the philosophical visions of atheist and even antichristian entities such as the communist, leftist-anarchist or much of the socialist movements.

It is one thing to have such political views and yet be a christian it is another thing entirely to justify such secular thinking with well chosen bible quotes.

Communitarianism?
By: Frances Swaggart

Americans must take the time to learn what the Communitarian philosophy is all about in order to understand the agendas in modern politics and religion. Communitarian principles (which are really just a “softer” version of communism) are being taught in a number of universities in this country, both secular and Christian. A Communitarian adopts and advocates concepts such as a cooperative spirit of community, selfless commitment to community service, and the duty to work for “the common good.” The ideals of this philosophy are coming in today as a new sort-of “salvation” for the human race, a new way to solve the world’s problems and have peaceful governance on Earth.

Communitarianism? | Frances Swaggart | Frances & Friends < click