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Genesis 17:11 And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
Galatians 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Colossians 2:17
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— [SUP]17[/SUP]things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, [SUP]19 [/SUP]and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
Colossians 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ
I guess the question is was it from God that the sign of the covenant with Abraham was done away with in the New Testament and the establishment of the Church (Christ's Body).
Yes, I realize that Colossians is not about circumcision, but I thought it would be a good read anyway.
Because it sounded like you were saying that we (or Israel) will be on the earth forever. I would still discuss with you if you were JW - I just wanted to know.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
A sign of a covenant, and a condition of a covenant is not the same.
Give me a break.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
It was. but that is not what this is about. it is about the fact, did God give a nation a gift. or did he not? (this gift does not concern salvation, nor is it salvic in matter)
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Well the rainbow is still here.
But if I want to be honest - A good portion of the world, as well as the Jews are still circumcised.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Well the rainbow is still here.
But if I want to be honest - A good portion of the world, as well as the Jews are still circumcised.
true.. Many for hygienic reasons.
But the question still remains.. Did God say this..
Gen 15:[SUP] 17 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. [SUP]18 [/SUP]On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— [SUP]19 [/SUP]the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, [SUP]20 [/SUP]the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, [SUP]21 [/SUP]the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
Gen 17: [SUP]8 [/SUP]Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
1. Where is the condition? (Abraham was put asleep when this covenant was confirmed., it was non conditional)
2. How can we spiritualize this covenant to mean spiritual isreal. when nothing of the gift has any spiritual connotation or aspect.
3. God said he gave it to them forever. Did God lie? or is it still theirs as long as the land still exists.?
Well, I can see why you are set on this. But, I guess I would say, how many times did God remove them from their everlasting possession in the OT; And what is meant by everlasting if the earth does not remain forever. If everlasting means eternal, then God means something else or the earth will be here forever. How can you have an eternal gift that is destroyed at some point, either with the establishment of the New Law of Grace or the actual destruction of the earth. No matter which way you believe, it is not eternal (unless, of course, you take a route similar to the JW).
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
as many times as they disobeyed him according to lev 26.. it still belonged to them, thats why he allowed them to return in the first place. if they lost it, why would God even return them in the first place especially when technically they were still in sin.
it meas as long as the land still exists, it is theirs. What good is a promise if it has no meat? the land is still there, if it is not theirs, then God lied, plain and simple.
can you show me a true child of Israel who is going to be upset when God destroys this land of canaan, which is feeble and flawed because of sin, and replaces that one with a new land, which is perfect in all ways, and gives them that land?
again, think brother, just think,, not with closed eyes, with an open mind
Well the rainbow is still here.
But if I want to be honest - A good portion of the world, as well as the Jews are still circumcised.
Heh actually the rainbow as a sign of a covenant between God and Noah might be a good parallel to go along with my opinion on the current topic at hand.
Obviously it be absurd to think the rainbow is going to save you any more than cutting your foreskin off is going to save you. The point of the covenant wasn't that people should worship rainbows or foreskin, it was that these are signs of covenants from God. The rainbow is a sign that God will not wipe out by water the earth again. The circumcision of Abraham a sign of God's covenant that he shall be Abraham's God and make him the father of many nations. The circumcision of Jesus from the flesh a sign of God's covenant of mercy and salvation.
At least that's my current understanding of these signs and covenants throughout the Bible, but I am but beginner in understanding. I see in both your posts good points really.
But within all the Heathen nations is another nation, God's people, we are His temple and He is ours. Peter says "we are a holy nation, a royal priesthood...." God's sanctuary is built without human hands, the church, we are the Israel of God.
You make me weary, lol...I'll let these others mess w you, we've been down this road.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
But within all the Heathen nations is another nation, God's people, we are His temple and He is ours. Peter says "we are a holy nation, a royal priesthood...." God's sanctuary is built without human hands, the church, we are the Israel of God.
You make me weary, lol...I'll let these others mess w you, we've been down this road.
lol. but we are not speaking of the eternal nation.
we are speaking of this earth, right here and right now.
Does the land of canaan given to abraham still exist or not? if it does. then does Gods promise still exist or does not not?
if it does not. then we are in danger, God breaks his promises
Where be the land where Canaan dwellt?
The land specifically is what is called The Promised Land, The Levant, Palestina, Judaea, and today Israel.
The next question be if today the Caananites or the Abrahamites dwell therein.
Seems to me God's promise to Abraham is truth indeed.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Not sure what your trying to say
Gen 17: [SUP]8 [/SUP]Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
Does this land still exist or not?
Aye indeed and God gave it to the descendants of Abraham as He promised even unto this day and forever.
Good scripture too btw.
EDIT: In fact, jsut to stick to reading the whole chapter, let's examine Genesis 17
Genesis 17
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.
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Yes the land exists, but not as God's economy. The land was but a type, or anti-type for the heavenly nation, New Jerusalem. Jesus said He was going to take the kingdom of God away from the ancient/earthly nation and give to another nation, this is the True nation of God, the remnant of God's people through-out all ages. God never promises to give the kingdom of God back to an earthly Israel or any earthly nation for that matter. God doesn't break His promises, they are extend and even better now to all who believe in the Son. Remember we agree, God always had one group of people He calls His own. There is no replacement but a continuation in this last age, namely called the age of grace. Then the end. simple as that!
The apostle John clearly states his eschatology in his 1st epistle:
Chapter 2
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Yet I am writing you a new command, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.
and
[SUP]28 [/SUP]So now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears we may have boldness and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. [SUP]29 [/SUP]If you know that He is righteous, you know this as well: Everyone who does what is right has been born of Him.
It is clear to me that John expected the return of Christ at any time because he taught that here in verse 28, as he taught them, the 1st century Christians to be ready, to remain in Him, for when He comes you can approach Him boldly because those who abide in Him are the righteous. I/you can apply this directly to our lives as well, for when He comes again and finds us abiding in Him it will be a glorious day. He can come at anytime.
Let me put it this way.
Land of Canaan is a land on earth today. Canaan has not possessed that land since just about all the tribes of Noah enslaved him as per Noah's woeful curse on Canaan. Therefore Canaan become part of many different tribes as we see per slavery. Look in Mark even one of the 12 is a Caananite by race. Plus political Caananite civilization Bible and even the hard-hearted's secular history puts as ending pretty much between Exodus to Kings/Chronicles.
That land is there today, shall it be forever? I think there may be some fire in store instead, but this Covenant is like the Covenant of the Rainbow. The Covenant isn't about the Noah's Rainbow or the Land of Abraham, its about God's Promise of Salvation.
Land of Canaan is a land on earth today. Canaan has not possessed that land since just about all the tribes of Noah enslaved him as per Noah's woeful curse on Canaan. Therefore Canaan become part of many different tribes as we see per slavery. Look in Mark even one of the 12 is a Caananite by race. Plus political Caananite civilization Bible and even the hard-hearted's secular history puts as ending pretty much between Exodus to Kings/Chronicles.
That land is there today, shall it be forever? I think there may be some fire in store instead, but this Covenant is like the Covenant of the Rainbow. The Covenant isn't about the Noah's Rainbow or the Land of Abraham, its about God's Promise of Salvation.
