Difference between Baptized with the Holy Ghost and being FILLED with the Holy Ghost vs

[CS1]

I can give you an example. Today we have millions of charismatic with the Holy Spirit baptised RCC members which are speaking in tongues and at the same time the defend the RCC teachings and claims. According your definition they are filled with the Holy Spirit.
While you telling me that I have not the Holy Spirit, because I dont speak in tongues. If I have not the Holy Spirit then I am also not born again. Ergo i am not a child of God and have no eternal life.
How can I agree with such a teaching?
Which I cant find taught in the word of God?

I have not you do not have the Holy Spirit, what I am saying is you do not understand the baptism of the Holy Spirit and filled with the Spirit upon you AND in you as Jesus said in John 14 * 15 chapters. The gifts of the Holy Spirit listed in 1cor 12 through 14 are just that but that is nothing concerning you because you believe they have stopped. YOu have the Spirit in you for salvation IF you know Jesus Roman chapter 10:9-10 John 3:16-18

 

[Runningman]

Each of the 4 gospels, at the beginning of the ministry of John (because John's ministry with baptism started BEFORE Jesus earthly ministry days of gathering disciples, etc, began... which BTW also contained the same water baptism John was sent with) there was a statement made by John. In EACH (all 4) this statement was made. "I (John) baptize you with water. He (Jesus) shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost"(in one wording or another). It was always stated as an event yet to come regarding the Holy Ghost.

In each of the 4 gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) at the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and before he departed to the Father, Jesus sends the apostles to baptize and to receive the Holy Ghost (in one wording or another).

This end-of-Jesus-earthly-ministry commandment was repeated again in Acts 1:4-5 plus verse 8, (as you pointed out) in yet another wording that also contains John's declaration...tying them both together. And this 5th statement STILL has the statement about the Holy Ghost as an event yet to come.

The fulfilling of ALL of these begins in Acts chapter 2, when the outpouring of the Holy Ghost and the preaching and baptising in Jesus name (which is the only change made to John's baptism) for remission of sins begins at Jerusalem per Luke 24:46-49.

The "promise of the Father" is the outpouring of the Holy Ghost / the Comforter. They had to WAIT for it, as well as RECEIVE it. They didnt get to skip the waiting process in the John 20:22-23 wording of that commandment of Jesus to receive the Holy Ghost and baptize in his name for remission of sins.

They were still waiting for THAT promise in Acts chapter 1 (per Jesus). And THAT promise began to be fulfilled at the beginning of Acts chapter 2, (only AFTER he departed to the Father so he could send the Comforter) and was preached as a SINGULAR "the promise" at the end of Acts 2 (verses 38-39).

And I'll stop there for now.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I think it's tempting to put God in a box and quote scripture as a way to predict what He can do, when He can do it, who He can do it to, and how but in doing so we actually place limits on God. While what you said may be absolutely true in the appropriate context, there are exceptions.

For example, in John 20:22 the Holy Spirit was given to the 11 apostles through Jesus breathing on them, similar to how God breathed the breath of life into Adam and Adam became a living soul according to Genesis 2:7. So Jesus did not need to depart to the Father in order to send the Comforter to His 11 apostles. (You may be able to form an argument that while the physical body of Jesus was dead in the tomb for three days that He went to His Father. Thus, in this way, fulfilling the prerequisite of going to the Father in order to enable sending the Comforter)

(Study note: Genesis 2:7 and John 20:22 supplement doctrine that the soul and spirit are joined together, but separable)

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but the way I understood you was that you said that the upper room baptism of the Holy Spirit involved water. If that is true then that is not evident from the scripture in Acts 1:4-5 and Acts 2:1-3.

 

[Wansvic]

Then it is interesting, that according your teaching before 1900 almost non believers were filled with the Holy Spirit and even non of them received the Holy Spirit.
And also since 1900 you alone can find filled with the Holy Spirit believers ore those which received the Holy Spirit in the pentecostal and charismatic Movements.
Also then fleshly Christians which you could find in the corithian church you would call filled with the Spirit, because the spoke in tongues.
Well this I would call false teaching.

You may want to study the scriptures presented and pray about it.

 

[Gardenias]

Chapter and verse of passage?

Mark16:1-18
And he said unto them,Go into all the world,and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; IN MY NAME SHALL THEY CAST OUT DEVILS; THEY SHALL SPEAK EITH NEW TONGUES;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drinkany deadly thing,it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick,and they shall recover.
1Cor. 14:22,Acts 2:2-5,1 Cor. 14:19-22

 

[KelbyofGod]

I think it's tempting to put God in a box and quote scripture as a way to predict what He can do, when He can do it, who He can do it to, and how but in doing so we actually place limits on God. While what you said may be absolutely true in the appropriate context, there are exceptions.

For example, in John 20:22 the Holy Spirit was given to the 11 apostles through Jesus breathing on them, similar to how God breathed the breath of life into Adam and Adam became a living soul according to Genesis 2:7. So Jesus did not need to depart to the Father in order to send the Comforter to His 11 apostles. (You may be able to form an argument that while the physical body of Jesus was dead in the tomb for three days that He went to His Father. Thus, in this way, fulfilling the prerequisite of going to the Father in order to enable sending the Comforter)

(Study note: Genesis 2:7 and John 20:22 supplement doctrine that the soul and spirit are joined together, but separable)

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but the way I understood you was that you said that the upper room baptism of the Holy Spirit involved water. If that is true then that is not evident from the scripture in Acts 1:4-5 and Acts 2:1-3.

First I want to say "Thank you" because you answered kindly to someone proposing a doctrine different than your own.

---​

I'll answer the last thing first about water baptism and the Day of Pentecost. And I'll answer vulnerably in that I'm knowingly including an assumption.

I assume that verses 38&39 of Acts 2 are still occurring on the day of Pentecost. THAT is how I was suggesting that "Baptism with the Holy Ghost" and "water baptism IN JESUS' NAME for remission of sins" were tied together on the day of Pentecost.

But it is not an assumption that both of these things "Holy Ghost baptism" and the "adding of Jesus' name to the baptism of repentance for remission of sins" both began at Jerusalem in Acts chapter 2. (per Luke 24:47&49, Acts 1:4-5&8, and the 4-gospels accounts mentioned earlier).

But now I need to go to get some sleep because I got interrupted by a series of phone calls. So I won't be able to address the topic of John 20:22 until later.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Gardenias]

I have not you do not have the Holy Spirit, what I am saying is you do not understand the baptism of the Holy Spirit and filled with the Spirit upon you AND in you as Jesus said in John 14 * 15 chapters. The gifts of the Holy Spirit listed in 1cor 12 through 14 are just that but that is nothing concerning you because you believe they have stopped. YOu have the Spirit in you for salvation IF you know Jesus Roman chapter 10:9-10 John 3:16-18

Funny how we see the hunger and desire in these people who resist the baptism/ filling of the Holy Ghost.
Yet they scurry about trying to avoid this fact of their desire by deflection, argument, stubbornness ECT just as Paul raged against the christians. Jesus asked him" why do you kick against the pricks".

I would ask these why are you resisting? Obviously it needles and intriques you, yet you refuse to admit and surrender.

I'm talking to soft hearted,born again people,not antagonistic, hard hearted scoffers and mockers.

 

[Beckie]

Mark16:1-18
And he said unto them,Go into all the world,and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; IN MY NAME SHALL THEY CAST OUT DEVILS; THEY SHALL SPEAK EITH NEW TONGUES;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drinkany deadly thing,it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick,and they shall recover.
1Cor. 14:22,Acts 2:2-5,1 Cor. 14:19-22

RichMan said:
I do not speak in tongues so according to you I am not filled with the Holy Spirit.



That is what the word says not according to me.

The HS is God and comes when we are born again, just as the Father and Son but he is more.

WE ALL HAVE HIM WITH AND UPON US,but being filled is a step further in faith.
Scripture teaches that tongues is the sign of his indwelling,taking abode in us to carry out his gifts and functions in the church.

You can take yourself in prayer to God and search the scriptures to find where you stand in him!

We do not know until we seek,we do not have until we ask.

Do not take anything I say except the word,which I gave in this thread. Measure it to the word with your spiritual eyes open for spiritual is confirmed by spiritual!
Beckie said:
I disagree the verses say what you believe they say.

 

[Runningman]

RichMan said:
I do not speak in tongues so according to you I am not filled with the Holy Spirit.



That is what the word says not according to me.

The HS is God and comes when we are born again, just as the Father and Son but he is more.

WE ALL HAVE HIM WITH AND UPON US,but being filled is a step further in faith.
Scripture teaches that tongues is the sign of his indwelling,taking abode in us to carry out his gifts and functions in the church.

You can take yourself in prayer to God and search the scriptures to find where you stand in him!

We do not know until we seek,we do not have until we ask.

Do not take anything I say except the word,which I gave in this thread. Measure it to the word with your spiritual eyes open for spiritual is confirmed by spiritual!
Beckie said:
I disagree the verses say what you believe they say.

How come the Bible never says Jesus spoke in tongues? That should put you on pause.

Because not speaking in tongues is not necessarily an indicator of not having the Holy Spirit. People can have the Holy Spirit and not speak in tongues.

 

[Gardenias]

Jesus is God,why would he need another part of God to fulfil his mission?
Furthermore it is said that not all is written of what Jesus said and did while on earth.
Had it all been recorded well............search it and study for yourself!

 

[Beckie]

RichMan said:
I do not speak in tongues so according to you I am not filled with the Holy Spirit.

That is what the word says not according to me.

The HS is God and comes when we are born again, just as the Father and Son but he is more.

WE ALL HAVE HIM WITH AND UPON US,but being filled is a step further in faith.
Scripture teaches that tongues is the sign of his indwelling,taking abode in us to carry out his gifts and functions in the church.

You can take yourself in prayer to God and search the scriptures to find where you stand in him!

We do not know until we seek,we do not have until we ask.

Do not take anything I say except the word,which I gave in this thread. Measure it to the word with your spiritual eyes open for spiritual is confirmed by spiritual!

The Word does not say if one does not speak in tongues he is not filled with the Holy Spirit. No place.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is God,why would he need another part of God to fulfil his mission?
Furthermore it is said that not all is written of what Jesus said and did while on earth.
Had it all been recorded well............search it and study for yourself!

Jesus exercised all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but it doesn’t say whether or not He spoke in tongues.

 

[Diakonos]

How come the Bible never says Jesus spoke in tongues?

Because not speaking in tongues is not necessarily an indicator of not having the Holy Spirit. People can have the Holy Spirit and not speak in tongues.

I agree with your position.
But to give a simple answer to your question:

Jesus never spoke in tongues because when speaking in tongues, the language is unknown to the speaker, but Jesus knows all languages (human and angelic).

 

[Wansvic]

The Word does not say if one does not speak in tongues he is not filled with the Holy Spirit. No place.

The bible confirms itself by providing 2-3 examples of truth. (Matt. 18:16) The following scriptures provide the evidence that tongues accompanies the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Also consider Peter's comment in Acts 2:33, it confirms that what they were hearing (speaking in tongues) was in fact the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:2-8
“And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?”

Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 10:44-48
“While Peter yet these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”

Acts 19:1-6
“And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”

 

[justpassinthrough]

​

I'm going to suggest that Acts 8:16 was only clarifying that they were indeed baptized with water in Jesus' name BUT still needed to be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I agree, and this is the point I am making.




JLB

 

[justpassinthrough]

What you are suggesting is actually a rather ingenious way to deal with the problem created when people claim "You're SAVED" when they first hear and grasp that Jesus died for their sins...but before they repent and get baptized for remission of sins, or receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.


Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I believe we are indeed saved by faith when we believe, and therefore obey the Gospel.


Then come baptism in water and baptism with the Holy Spirit.




JLB

 

[Snacks]

I do not speak in tongues so according to you I am not filled with the Holy Spirit.

Rest in the words of Jesus in John 14

 

[Beckie]

The bible confirms itself by providing 2-3 examples of truth. (Matt. 18:16) The following scriptures provide the evidence that tongues accompanies the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Also consider Peter's comment in Acts 2:33, it confirms that what they were hearing (speaking in tongues) was in fact the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:2-8
“And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?”

Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 10:44-48
“While Peter yet these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”

Acts 19:1-6
“And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”

Being third generation Pentecostal this discussion not new ... Third generation and i have yet to see the tongues of Fire as stated in Act 2:3 .. I have seen much hurt and rejection from the YOU MUST SPEAK IN TONGUES crowd .... Seen and heard much fakery god dust feathers all that used car salesman junk We Holy Ghost filled folks should be sure we are using the whole cancel of God all HIs Word not just the select passages that fit our theologies...

No mention of tongues here;
Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

 

[CS1]

I agree with your position.
But to give a simple answer to your question:

Jesus never spoke in tongues because when speaking in tongues, the language is unknown to the speaker, but Jesus knows all languages (human and angelic).

FYI, Jesus did not speak in tongues because He is not limited in the knowledge of all things because HEis GOD.

 

[Wansvic]

Being third generation Pentecostal this discussion not new ... Third generation and i have yet to see the tongues of Fire as stated in Act 2:3 .. I have seen much hurt and rejection from the YOU MUST SPEAK IN TONGUES crowd .... Seen and heard much fakery god dust feathers all that used car salesman junk We Holy Ghost filled folks should be sure we are using the whole cancel of God all HIs Word not just the select passages that fit our theologies...

No mention of tongues here;
Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

What is actually stated in the Word concerning tongues should not be discounted because of the error of some.

According to Matt. 18:16 truth is established through the existence of 2-3 scriptures expressing the same thing. And as presented, speaking in tongues is specifically mentioned as occurring when individual's received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost on at least 3 occasions. In addition, it should be noted that Philip knew the Samaritans had not received the Holy Ghost. That point makes it clear that Philip expected something to occur that did not. Days later when Simon "saw" the group receive the Holy Ghost he offered to pay to have the ability to impart it. (Acts 8:12-19) Although the record does not directly say they spoke in tongues, the details allude to it being the case.

The record of Jesus giving the apostles the Holy Ghost in John 20 is an isolated incident. Biblical scholars agree that it was a partial impartation. Whereas later on the Day of Pentecost they actually received the full indwelling. Jesus did tell the apostles that the Holy Ghost would not come unless He departed and after that occurred He would send Him. (John 16:7) Peter confirmed this happened on at Pentecost. (Acts 2:33)

 

[Beckie]

[QUOTE="Wansvic, post: 4794972, member: 277938"]What is actually stated in the Word concerning tongues should not be discounted because of the error of some.

According to Matt. 18:16 truth is established through the existence of 2-3 scriptures expressing the same thing. And as presented, speaking in tongues is specifically mentioned as occurring when individual's received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost on at least 3 occasions. In addition, it should be noted that Philip knew the Samaritans had not received the Holy Ghost. That point makes it clear that Philip expected something to occur that did not. Days later when Simon "saw" the group receive the Holy Ghost he offered to pay to have the ability to impart it. (Acts 8:12-19) Although the record does not directly say they spoke in tongues, the details allude to it being the case.

The record of Jesus giving the apostles the Holy Ghost in John 20 is an isolated incident. Biblical scholars agree that it was a partial impartation. Whereas later on the Day of Pentecost they actually received the full indwelling. Jesus did tell the apostles that the Holy Ghost would not come unless He departed and after that occurred He would send Him. (John 16:7) Peter confirmed this happened on at Pentecost. (Acts 2:33)[/QUOTE]


I bolded 2 lines in your post . Do you not see the conflict in your very words?
Yes we all tend to adjust the Word to fit our theologies.