Difference between God and Jesus

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silas42 said:
I'm guessing your stating what I have heard before. In regard to the economic sense of Trinity, Christ is now and always has been subject to the Father, but in the ontological sense(is that right) he has never been, nor will be subject to the Father

Is that right?

It's no big deal, as we are not discussing the debate I'm interested in directly, just wondered
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As a man He would eternally be subject to the One He calls His Father. This is a result of His humility that resulted in our redemption. This is consistent with the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union which states that within the one person of Christ are two natures: human and divine.


Nothing you have talked about or scriptures you have provided prove your belief silas. So what do you want to debate?
 
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God .....
Exodus 20:5

In the end God is clear in the OT. There is only one God, no one beside God and God is a jealous God. So whatever you believe make sure it is one God. Don't get it wrong.
 
phil36 said:
As a man He would eternally be subject to the One He calls His Father. This is a result of His humility that resulted in our redemption. This is consistent with the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union which states that within the one person of Christ are two natures: human and divine.


Nothing you have talked about or scriptures you have provided prove your belief silas. So what do you want to debate?
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Oh the only thing I've seriously been debating is who a person must believe Christ to be to inherit eternal life as you know, that's already been proved, as you have no scripture that states otherwise, nothing else to seriously debate between us is there, I was just passing a few minutes, hope you didn't mind
 
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Drett said:
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God .....
Exodus 20:5

In the end God is clear in the OT. There is only one God, no one beside God and God is a jealous God. So whatever you believe make sure it is one God. Don't get it wrong.
Click to expand...


Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.

If you get it wrng then you will be following a false god.
 
silas42 said:
Oh the only thing I've seriously been debating is who a person must believe Christ to be to inherit eternal life as you know, that's already been proved,
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I showed you that in the John 1 text and you either did not read the post or you simply ignored it. At any rate, your question was answered and you chose not to respond to the answer given. All you did was throw another batch of scripture at it and then declare the discussion over. Why will you not respond to the answer?
 
silas42 said:
Oh the only thing I've seriously been debating is who a person must believe Christ to be to inherit eternal life as you know, that's already been proved,
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You have to believe who he says he is..youve been told that already. and the posts above tell you who that is. To get it wrong is to believe in another god. as has been proved.

Why would you believe in a false Jesus, it wont do you any good.. if you have Jesus wrong then you have the Father wrong and the Holy Spirit..


A new convert may not understand the The Godhead as revealed in scripture (yet), but they cannot say they are born again and deny Jesus is God.

Do you think someone can be saved and deny Jesus is God?
 
jb said:
oldhermit said:
The grammatical construction favours "this" (houtos) being applied to "Christ" as it is the immediate antecedent, if (as you say) it should be applied to God or the word "true" it would be mere tautology.
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Here is a bit of a quote from Barnes:

This construction seems to be demanded by the adjunct which John has assigned to the phrase "the true God" - "ETERNAL LIFE." This is an expression which John would be likely to apply to the Lord Jesus, considered as "life," and the "source of life," and not to God as such.
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Exactly as I suspected... seems to be...
 
oldhermit said:
I showed you that in the John 1 text and you either did not read the post or you simply ignored it. At any rate, your question was answered and you chose not to respond to the answer given. All you did was throw another batch of scripture at it and then declare the discussion over. Why will you not respond to the answer?
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Are you and Phil brothers? At least I addressed your questions, you ignored the important ones of mine. I'm not gonna give you theological extrapolation, just the plain words of Christ concerning eternal life

Now this is eternal life(notice what eternal life hinges on believing) that they may know you(the Father) the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John17:3

There's the direct answer, which as far as I am concerned makes all of your failed extrapolations of scripture null and void
 
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phil36 said:
You have to believe who he says he is..youve been told that already. and the posts above tell you who that is. To get it wrong is to believe in another god. as has been proved.

Why would you believe in a false Jesus, it wont do you any good.. if you have Jesus wrong then you have the Father wrong and the Holy Spirit..


A new convert may not understand the The Godhead as revealed in scripture (yet), but they cannot say they are born again and deny Jesus is God.

Do you think someone can be saved and deny Jesus is God?
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I'll post to you what I have to old hermit, Christ's plain words as to what must be believed in this regard

Now this is eternal life(notice what eternal life hinges on believing) that they may know you(the Father) the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John 17:3

Which basically makes all of your theological studying on this subject null and void
 
Of course if you two want to go around telling people they can't be a Christian if they believe what Christ plainly stated when he walked this earth, that is up to you, but you are not helping yourselves by doing it
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Exactly as I suspected... seems to be...
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It more that just seems to be. That is what it is. Those are someone else's words not mine. If you think this understanding of 1John 5:20 to be incorrect from a grammatical point, I suggest you ask this question on the B-Greek web site and see how the real Greek scholars handle this text. There is no question grammatically about who the subject of οὗτός is. You are simply either going to have to deal with the implications of that text or ignore it altogether but, you cannot re-write it.
 
phil36 said:
As a man He would eternally be subject to the One He calls His Father.
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This claim contradicts scripture. As the preincarnate logos he was subject to the 'father',

Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me. John 8:42
​

and and he will forever be subject to the father.

But whenever all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the one who subjected all things to him, in order that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28

​
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ​“Behold, the dwelling of God is with humanity, and he will take up residence with them, and they will be his people and God himself will be with them as their God. Revelation 21:2-3
​
 
silas42 said:
I'll post to you what I have to old hermit, Christ's plain words as to what must be believed in this regard

Now this is eternal life(notice what eternal life hinges on believing) that they may know you(the Father) the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John 17:3

Which basically makes all of your theological studying on this subject null and void
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Hi silas,

your not saying anything..please tell who and what is Jesus that I am to believe in him to be saved..

Theres a guy in Australia who say he is Jesus and the son of god..is it him..who and what?
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
This claim contradicts scripture. As the preincarnate logos he was subject to the 'father',
Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me. John 8:42
​

and and he will forever be subject to the father.

But whenever all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the one who subjected all things to him, in order that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28

​
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ​“Behold, the dwelling of God is with humanity, and he will take up residence with them, and they will be his people and God himself will be with them as their God. Revelation 21:2-3
​
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1 Corinthians 15:28, "And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all." Jesus is a man (1 Tim. 2:5). He is eternally a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek so that He can eternally offer intercession for us (Heb. 7:25). As a man He would eternally be subject to the One He calls His Father. This is a result of His humility that resulted in our redemption. This is consistent with the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union which states that within the one person of Christ are two natures: human and divine. (quoted from carm.org, they say it a lot better than I would.)
 
phil36 said:
Hi silas,

your not saying anything..please tell who and what is Jesus that I am to believe in him to be saved..

Theres a guy in Australia who say he is Jesus and the son of god..is it him..who and what?
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lol, back to the same old huh. I've just given you the plain words of Christ in regard to what we are discussing, you then ignore them. Four times now on this thread I have clearly stated who I believe Christ to be, you can read it
Now rather than me be told I'm bullying you I'll leave it there, for as yesterday, you don't want to respond to the text, and I'm tired of receiving no answers, just more questions, that's not debate
God Bless
 
silas42 said:
I'll post to you what I have to old hermit, Christ's plain words as to what must be believed in this regard

Now this is eternal life(notice what eternal life hinges on believing) that they may know you(the Father) the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John 17:3

Which basically makes all of your theological studying on this subject null and void
Click to expand...


So all I have to do is 'know; I do need to do anything else.. know what?


I don't understand silas could you explain for me please..who is the Father.. what does it mean by God and who is Jesus that was sent,, can you help please and explain?
 
phil36 said:
Hi silas

All I am asking is for your help

Please help me for I do not understand what you are saying?
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You understand just fine Phil. And if you took my advice(which you won't) you would cease your insincerity, it is not a good witness to your beliefs, nor is it the Christian way to act. But I wonder, what means more to you, trying to impress man on this website, or being as God wants you to, we shall see
 
oldhermit said:
It more that just seems to be. That is what it is. Those are someone else's words not mine. If you think this understanding of 1John 5:20 to be incorrect from a grammatical point, I suggest you ask this question on the B-Greek web site and see how the real Greek scholars handle this text. There is no question grammatically about who the subject of οὗτός is. You are simply either going to have to deal with the implications of that text or ignore it altogether but, you cannot re-write it.
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I honestly don't think that language is always as precise as some people would like to believe. Anyone who is honest with themselves will know that many times what they write or say doesn't always come out correctly (as to what they actually intended), and due to lack of precision and clarity can be interpreted more than one way.

What the writer intended is what matters, and not what people think the writer intended based on their interpretation of grammatical rules. This is just a fact. Language can be imprecise; and its usage often is so due to people's laziness, thoughtlessness, or carelessness. Those who think otherwise just don't know what they're talking about.

I know this all to well. If you click on the Azal link in my signature you will find a study I did, parts of which required numerous iterations in order to convey exactly what I was trying to say. Ambiguity is a beast that requires a lot work and discipline to slay.
 
silas42 said:
You understand just fine Phil. And if you took my advice(which you won't) you would cease your insincerity, it is not a good witness to your beliefs, nor is it the Christian way to act. But I wonder, what means more to you, trying to impress man on this website, or being as God wants you to, we shall see
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Hi silas,

Please don't be angry.. I just want to understand your position.

WHy won't you simply state what you believe..

lets start with the father.. who is he and what is god?
 
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