Different Gospels

[Musicmaster]

The Kingdom Gospel preached by Jesus and the twelve:

Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

The Gospel of Grace given to Paul directly from that same Jesus after His acension:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

When an honestly mistaken man sees the truth presented in black-n-white, such as what can be seen above, one of three things happens:

(1) he will either cease to be mistaken, or
(2) he will cease to be honest, or
(3) he will argue endlessly as his way of a continued refusal against what's written above to try and cover over his dishonesty.

In the end, however, he will either accept the truth or he will reject it, some going so far as to try and pit the word of God against itself on the basis of some modern, English translations that lead some down the pathways of what those translations claim are the "best texts."

If he accepts the truth of what's said in passages above, and remains consistent with proper hermeneutics by accepting the clear language of what's stated in the verses above, he's no longer mistaken.

If he rejects it, he's no longer honest with himself nor with others.

It's as simple as that.

There can't be, therefore, such a thing as an "honestly mistaken man" who, once seeing the truth presented to him from the scriptures, continues to reject by re-interpreting key passages and/or contexts that credibly fail to support his false position.

The masses of Gentiles who think they're adhering to the Kingdom Gospel preached by Jesus to His disciples and the twelve to Israel, none today are able to do the things Israel was promised they would be able to do following that Gospel, all while thinking we're under that Gospel today.

Interestingly, avoidance of being seen as foolish, they either never talk about their inability to do these things described in the verses above or they do the awkward slight-of-hand magic disappearance trick by making use of verses popular among the cessationists, feebly using those as an explanation for their failure in showing that Gospel as being operative today, which it is not.

The emphatic declaration by Jesus that those who had faith and were baptized, therefore absolutely able to do ALL those things, here we are with clinics, hospitals and care homes filled with people almost never visited, and therefore never healed, by these Gentiles who claim they believe what Jesus taught as allegedly applying to us today.

Is this failure on their part a demonstration for a severe lack of faith on their part or are they failing to love, care and express a heart-felt compassion for the sick and infirmed people, or is it a perpetual demonstration for a lack of saving faith on their part?

The reason they don't go about healing and being healed by those who claim they're followers of Christ and His instructions in His Kingdom Gospel message is because that Kingdom Gospel message was unique to Israel alone under the Kingdom Gospel dispensation not meant for us today given the fall of Israel. That is the uncomfortable truth at play here.

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Slapping, with warped glee, the seemingly negative sounding labels on the truth of dispensations as their practiced manipulation upon the weaker minds of others (those who routinely fail to "prove all things" by putting on their critical thinking caps long since taken from them by public and private primary and secondary schools), and those of a more liberal leaning buffoonery that permeates so much of modern education, this practice is an old trick empowered by the princes of this world and is still effectively at play today.

The most popular hang-up is the snideness applied in support of a manipulative crusade promotion of a more negative sentiment about the descriptor "dispensationalism," a term that fits Paul perfectly, given that he used the term underlying term "dispensations" a number of times in his epistles:

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Collossians 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

So, when I see the snideness directed against the proper and honest teaching for dispensations within scripture, of which we are instructed to rightly divide within the word of God, especially the snideness perpetrated by people who themselves hypocritically practice dispensational differentiations given that they don't perform animal sacrifices in their back yards for their sins, along with many other of the 613 Mosaic Law requirements, their negativity against what was given to Paul for us today, they're indeed failing to remain honest with themselves and with others.

What about you? Do you see the differences here?

MM

 

[Thaddeus]

All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas 1Cor3:22

Why would Paul tell gentiles, under a different gospel to Peter, that he is theirs?

 

[GWH]

The Kingdom Gospel preached by Jesus and the twelve:

Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

The Gospel of Grace given to Paul directly from that same Jesus after His acension:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

When an honestly mistaken man sees the truth presented in black-n-white, such as what can be seen above, one of three things happens:

(1) he will either cease to be mistaken, or
(2) he will cease to be honest, or
(3) he will argue endlessly as his way of a continued refusal against what's written above to try and cover over his dishonesty.

In the end, however, he will either accept the truth or he will reject it, some going so far as to try and pit the word of God against itself on the basis of some modern, English translations that lead some down the pathways of what those translations claim are the "best texts."

If he accepts the truth of what's said in passages above, and remains consistent with proper hermeneutics by accepting the clear language of what's stated in the verses above, he's no longer mistaken.

If he rejects it, he's no longer honest with himself nor with others.

It's as simple as that.

There can't be, therefore, such a thing as an "honestly mistaken man" who, once seeing the truth presented to him from the scriptures, continues to reject by re-interpreting key passages and/or contexts that credibly fail to support his false position.

The masses of Gentiles who think they're adhering to the Kingdom Gospel preached by Jesus to His disciples and the twelve to Israel, none today are able to do the things Israel was promised they would be able to do following that Gospel, all while thinking we're under that Gospel today.

Interestingly, avoidance of being seen as foolish, they either never talk about their inability to do these things described in the verses above or they do the awkward slight-of-hand magic disappearance trick by making use of verses popular among the cessationists, feebly using those as an explanation for their failure in showing that Gospel as being operative today, which it is not.

The emphatic declaration by Jesus that those who had faith and were baptized, therefore absolutely able to do ALL those things, here we are with clinics, hospitals and care homes filled with people almost never visited, and therefore never healed, by these Gentiles who claim they believe what Jesus taught as allegedly applying to us today.

Is this failure on their part a demonstration for a severe lack of faith on their part or are they failing to love, care and express a heart-felt compassion for the sick and infirmed people, or is it a perpetual demonstration for a lack of saving faith on their part?

The reason they don't go about healing and being healed by those who claim they're followers of Christ and His instructions in His Kingdom Gospel message is because that Kingdom Gospel message was unique to Israel alone under the Kingdom Gospel dispensation not meant for us today given the fall of Israel. That is the uncomfortable truth at play here.

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Slapping, with warped glee, the seemingly negative sounding labels on the truth of dispensations as their practiced manipulation upon the weaker minds of others (those who routinely fail to "prove all things" by putting on their critical thinking caps long since taken from them by public and private primary and secondary schools), and those of a more liberal leaning buffoonery that permeates so much of modern education, this practice is an old trick empowered by the princes of this world and is still effectively at play today.

The most popular hang-up is the snideness applied in support of a manipulative crusade promotion of a more negative sentiment about the descriptor "dispensationalism," a term that fits Paul perfectly, given that he used the term underlying term "dispensations" a number of times in his epistles:

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Collossians 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

So, when I see the snideness directed against the proper and honest teaching for dispensations within scripture, of which we are instructed to rightly divide within the word of God, especially the snideness perpetrated by people who themselves hypocritically practice dispensational differentiations given that they don't perform animal sacrifices in their back yards for their sins, along with many other of the 613 Mosaic Law requirements, their negativity against what was given to Paul for us today, they're indeed failing to remain honest with themselves and with others.

What about you? Do you see the differences here?

MM

I see variations on one Gospel.
My favorite is this creed:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in Acts 16:31, 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6) or “Love Jesus as Messiah and Lord” (John 8:42). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in these statements can be explained or elaborated as in the following creed:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

One Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph. 4:5).

 

[Thaddeus]

Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.

6 As for those who were held in high esteem – whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favouritism – they added nothing to my message. 7 On the contrary, they recognised that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,just as Peter had been to the circumcised.For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephasand John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along. Gal2:1-10

Paul believed Peter, James and John were esteemed as leaders, leaders of what, a different gospel to him ?

He presented the gospel he had been preaching to them, to be sure he was not running his race in vain. Why did he do that if they were under a different
gospel than Paul?


6 A''s for those who were held in high esteem – whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favouritism – they added nothing to my message.''
Wouldn't that mean they agreed with Paul's message?

'''For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me.'''

Doesnt sound to me like the Jerusalem church believed Paul preached a different gospel to them

'''All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along'''

Why would they ask Paul anything concerning his ministry if he was part of a different gospel to them?

 

[EmethAlethia]

The Kingdom Gospel preached by Jesus and the twelve:

Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Since the earliest document containing anything after Mark 6:8 is from the 5th century, and the writing styles are substantially different from the rest of the Gospel of Mark, most biblical scholars have concluded it was added long after Mark finished the gospel. For this reason, unless verified by other passages of scripture, having no questionable origin, few will use this passage you quoted for anything ... unless they want to confirm what they believe to be signs and wonders. But then, those have absolutely nothing at all to do with proof of saving faith at all. Mat. 7:22-22

 

[ResidentAlien]

"But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3

 

[Musicmaster]

Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.

6 As for those who were held in high esteem – whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favouritism – they added nothing to my message. 7 On the contrary, they recognised that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,just as Peter had been to the circumcised.For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephasand John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along. Gal2:1-10

Paul believed Peter, James and John were esteemed as leaders, leaders of what, a different gospel to him ?

He presented the gospel he had been preaching to them, to be sure he was not running his race in vain. Why did he do that if they were under a different
gospel than Paul?


6 A''s for those who were held in high esteem – whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favouritism – they added nothing to my message.''
Wouldn't that mean they agreed with Paul's message?

'''For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me.'''

Doesnt sound to me like the Jerusalem church believed Paul preached a different gospel to them

'''All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along'''

Why would they ask Paul anything concerning his ministry if he was part of a different gospel to them?

Let's stay consistent with the OP:

So, are you saying that you can do those miracles Jesus promised would be an outflow from those who have the faith of which He spoke?

Are you admitting that you don't have the faith Jesus spoke of?

If you do have that faith, then why can you not do what He promised to Israel?

Do you have proof of that faith that you can show to us in video form, OR, are you going to fall back onto the cessationist arguments as a defense for believing in another gospel that cannot save today?

That's what's consistent with my OP. Paul going back to Jerusalem isn't at issue here. Please answer the questions posed in the OP and what I'm asking here, and THEN we can divert off into those other rabbit holes that have answers as well.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Since the earliest document containing anything after Mark 6:8 is from the 5th century, and the writing styles are substantially different from the rest of the Gospel of Mark, most biblical scholars have concluded it was added long after Mark finished the gospel. For this reason, unless verified by other passages of scripture, having no questionable origin, few will use this passage you quoted for anything ... unless they want to confirm what they believe to be signs and wonders. But then, those have absolutely nothing at all to do with proof of saving faith at all. Mat. 7:22-22

Straw man tactics going to extraneous arguments about manuscripts fail to answer the questions asked.

MM

 

[Thaddeus]

Let's stay consistent with the OP:

So, are you saying that you can do those miracles Jesus promised would be an outflow from those who have the faith of which He spoke?

Are you admitting that you don't have the faith Jesus spoke of?

If you do have that faith, then why can you not do what He promised to Israel?

Do you have proof of that faith that you can show to us in video form, OR, are you going to fall back onto the cessationist arguments as a defense for believing in another gospel that cannot save today?

That's what's consistent with my OP. Paul going back to Jerusalem isn't at issue here. Please answer the questions posed in the OP and what I'm asking here, and THEN we can divert off into those other rabbit holes that have answers as well.

MM

Well I have given you examples you should address.
A snake wrapped itself around Paul's wrist, the people expected it to kill him but it did not. Was Paul under the kingdom gospel?
Miracles.
Kathryn Khulman wrote a book ''I believe in Miracles''
For a miracle of healing to be put in her book it had to fulfill the following criteria:
The person healed must have had no reoccurence of the illness for five years after they had been healed
The medical records had to be released
Two doctors/surgeons who had treated the healed person had to testify to their former condition.

I can't produce a video no. But one person who was riddled with cancer, and given only a few weeks to live was laid on a stretcher at the edge of the platform on which she spoke. They walked out the meeting, and had no reocurrence of cancer, obviously for at least five years after their healing took place
Kathryn Khulman received an honourary doctorate. With tears streaming down her cheeks, she said:
''Anyone can see the power in their services I have seen in mine, but it costs everything''
I have never given everything, something I am ashamed of

 

[Soyeong]

The Kingdom Gospel preached by Jesus and the twelve:

Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

The Gospel of Grace given to Paul directly from that same Jesus after His acension:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

When an honestly mistaken man sees the truth presented in black-n-white, such as what can be seen above, one of three things happens:

(1) he will either cease to be mistaken, or
(2) he will cease to be honest, or
(3) he will argue endlessly as his way of a continued refusal against what's written above to try and cover over his dishonesty.

In the end, however, he will either accept the truth or he will reject it, some going so far as to try and pit the word of God against itself on the basis of some modern, English translations that lead some down the pathways of what those translations claim are the "best texts."

If he accepts the truth of what's said in passages above, and remains consistent with proper hermeneutics by accepting the clear language of what's stated in the verses above, he's no longer mistaken.

If he rejects it, he's no longer honest with himself nor with others.

It's as simple as that.

There can't be, therefore, such a thing as an "honestly mistaken man" who, once seeing the truth presented to him from the scriptures, continues to reject by re-interpreting key passages and/or contexts that credibly fail to support his false position.

The masses of Gentiles who think they're adhering to the Kingdom Gospel preached by Jesus to His disciples and the twelve to Israel, none today are able to do the things Israel was promised they would be able to do following that Gospel, all while thinking we're under that Gospel today.

Interestingly, avoidance of being seen as foolish, they either never talk about their inability to do these things described in the verses above or they do the awkward slight-of-hand magic disappearance trick by making use of verses popular among the cessationists, feebly using those as an explanation for their failure in showing that Gospel as being operative today, which it is not.

The emphatic declaration by Jesus that those who had faith and were baptized, therefore absolutely able to do ALL those things, here we are with clinics, hospitals and care homes filled with people almost never visited, and therefore never healed, by these Gentiles who claim they believe what Jesus taught as allegedly applying to us today.

Is this failure on their part a demonstration for a severe lack of faith on their part or are they failing to love, care and express a heart-felt compassion for the sick and infirmed people, or is it a perpetual demonstration for a lack of saving faith on their part?

The reason they don't go about healing and being healed by those who claim they're followers of Christ and His instructions in His Kingdom Gospel message is because that Kingdom Gospel message was unique to Israel alone under the Kingdom Gospel dispensation not meant for us today given the fall of Israel. That is the uncomfortable truth at play here.

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Slapping, with warped glee, the seemingly negative sounding labels on the truth of dispensations as their practiced manipulation upon the weaker minds of others (those who routinely fail to "prove all things" by putting on their critical thinking caps long since taken from them by public and private primary and secondary schools), and those of a more liberal leaning buffoonery that permeates so much of modern education, this practice is an old trick empowered by the princes of this world and is still effectively at play today.

The most popular hang-up is the snideness applied in support of a manipulative crusade promotion of a more negative sentiment about the descriptor "dispensationalism," a term that fits Paul perfectly, given that he used the term underlying term "dispensations" a number of times in his epistles:

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Collossians 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

So, when I see the snideness directed against the proper and honest teaching for dispensations within scripture, of which we are instructed to rightly divide within the word of God, especially the snideness perpetrated by people who themselves hypocritically practice dispensational differentiations given that they don't perform animal sacrifices in their back yards for their sins, along with many other of the 613 Mosaic Law requirements, their negativity against what was given to Paul for us today, they're indeed failing to remain honest with themselves and with others.

What about you? Do you see the differences here?

MM

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught based on the Law of Moses:

Acts 14:21-22 When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 20:24-25 But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again.

Acts 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

Moreover, in Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture was written for our instruction and in Romans 15:18-19, he fulfilled the Gospel by bringing Gentiles to obedience to it in word and in deed. Likewise, Romans 10:16, 1 Peter 4:17, and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace and Jesus spent his ministry teaching and in what he accomplished through the cross in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20).

There is a huge difference between Paul using the word "dispensation" and the whole system of theology that has been built up around the use of that word in regard to things that Paul did not talk about, such as about how many dispensations there are and what they are. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which means that the Mosaic Covenant was a covenant of grace and law. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, which means that the New Covenant is also a covenant of grace and law, along with all of God's other covenants. So dispensations is about wrongly dividing the word of truth by undermining its continuity.

 

[Musicmaster]

Well I have given you examples you should address.
A snake wrapped itself around Paul's wrist, the people expected it to kill him but it did not. Was Paul under the kingdom gospel?
Miracles.
Kathryn Khulman wrote a book ''I believe in Miracles''
For a miracle of healing to be put in her book it had to fulfill the following criteria:
The person healed must have had no reoccurence of the illness for five years after they had been healed
The medical records had to be released
Two doctors/surgeons who had treated the healed person had to testify to their former condition.

I can't produce a video no. But one person who was riddled with cancer, and given only a few weeks to live was laid on a stretcher at the edge of the platform on which she spoke. They walked out the meeting, and had no reocurrence of cancer, obviously for at least five years after their healing took place
Kathryn Khulman received an honourary doctorate. With tears streaming down her cheeks, she said:
''Anyone can see the power in their services I have seen in mine, but it costs everything''
I have never given everything, something I am ashamed of

If I may, this is still dodging the issue by way of the fallacies of special pleading and moving the goal posts.

For reiteration, I wasn't asking about Paul or some other person with cancer. I'm asking about you. I will be glad to side-track to your questions after you answer mine.

If you believe the Kingdom Gospel applies to you because it's allegedly the same as that preached by Paul, even though I've shown that it's not the same gospel proven by the direct quotes from scripture provided in the OP, why are you not able to do as Jesus promised to Israel (and even Gentiles who would joined with Israel before the fall of Israel) under that Gospel?

In other words, I'm interested in WHY you believe what you seem to claim that you believe. I really want to understand all this without diversions into other people and topics not at all related to my questions posed. I would very much appreciate your indulgence in this because the people and their beliefs in this forum are of interest to me as an Israeli.

Thanks for your time.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught based on the Law of Moses:

Acts 14:21-22 When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 20:24-25 But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again.

Acts 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

Moreover, in Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture was written for our instruction and in Romans 15:18-19, he fulfilled the Gospel by bringing Gentiles to obedience to it in word and in deed. Likewise, Romans 10:16, 1 Peter 4:17, and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace and Jesus spent his ministry teaching and in what he accomplished through the cross in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20).

There is a huge difference between Paul using the word "dispensation" and the whole system of theology that has been built up around the use of that word in regard to things that Paul did not talk about, such as about how many dispensations there are and what they are. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which means that the Mosaic Covenant was a covenant of grace and law. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, which means that the New Covenant is also a covenant of grace and law, along with all of God's other covenants. So dispensations is about wrongly dividing the word of truth by undermining its continuity.

So, why are you not able to do those amazing miracles promised by Christ to Israel if it's all still applicable today? Can you answer that for us?

MM

 

[Thaddeus]

If I may, this is still dodging the issue by way of the fallacies of special pleading and moving the goal posts.

For reiteration, I wasn't asking about Paul or some other person with cancer. I'm asking about you. I will be glad to side-track to your questions after you answer mine.

If you believe the Kingdom Gospel applies to you because it's allegedly the same as that preached by Paul, even though I've shown that it's not the same gospel proven by the direct quotes from scripture provided in the OP, why are you not able to do as Jesus promised to Israel (and even Gentiles who would joined with Israel before the fall of Israel) under that Gospel?

In other words, I'm interested in WHY you believe what you seem to claim that you believe. I really want to understand all this without diversions into other people and topics not at all related to my questions posed. I would very much appreciate your indulgence in this because the people and their beliefs in this forum are of interest to me as an Israeli.

Thanks for your time.

MM

I did not diverge at all. I gave you the example of the snake not killing Paul, and I gave you the example of miracles which was your main point.
I also explained the reason I personally could not expect to see miracles.
It seems to me you are dodging addressing the points made to you as to why Paul did not consider he was part of a different church to the Jerusalem church.;

 

[Thaddeus]

Dispensationalists say the covenant mentioned in Heb10:15-18 is not for gentiles today but Israelites in the future
However, their apostle stated the law was in gentiles hearts when he wrote his letters(Rom2:14&15&2Cor3:3)
Paul also believed gentiles sins and lawless deeds would be remembered no more
He also believed there were no more sacrifices for sin
So, Paul believed what was written in the covenant of Heb10:15-18 was practically speaking fully reflected in gentiles lives when he wrote his letters
In my experience, non dispensationalists believe more of what Paul wrote than dispensationalists do-ironically

 

[Delvianna]

If I were to address everything in the OP as far as an argument, I think my post would be a book... So I'm going to select a few things to go off of first.

1) The earliest manuscripts we have of Mark, when it comes to chapter 16, stop at verse 8. This is why in some translations in the bible, it makes a note of that and gives you verses 9+ that are in later manuscripts. After research, I personally believe that Mark 16 should stop at verse 8. To go over why would be an entirely different post, but I think it's worth noting this for any kind of discussion on this matter since you are using the verses are purely fact.

2)
In the end, however, he will either accept the truth or he will reject it, some going so far as to try and pit the word of God against itself on the basis of some modern, English translations that lead some down the pathways of what those translations claim are the "best texts."

If he accepts the truth of what's said in passages above, and remains consistent with proper hermeneutics by accepting the clear language of what's stated in the verses above, he's no longer mistaken.

If he rejects it, he's no longer honest with himself nor with others.

It's as simple as that.

There can't be, therefore, such a thing as an "honestly mistaken man" who, once seeing the truth presented to him from the scriptures, continues to reject by re-interpreting key passages and/or contexts that credibly fail to support his false position.

This assumes your interpretation is correct and theirs is "re-interpretation". For someone who is open to understanding, you aren't starting off on a great foot here.

3) So, when I see the snideness directed against the proper and honest teaching for dispensations within scripture, of which we are instructed to rightly divide within the word of God, especially the snideness perpetrated by people who themselves hypocritically practice dispensational differentiations given that they don't perform animal sacrifices in their back yards for their sins, along with many other of the 613 Mosaic Law requirements, their negativity against what was given to Paul for us today, they're indeed failing to remain honest with themselves and with others.

Hebrews clearly says that sacrifices never took away sins. So the idea that sacrifices before Jesus ever did, is scripturally inaccurate. In Acts, Paul himself sacrifices at the temple to prove he hasn't stopped following the law. So honestly, I think if anyone says that scripture presents different gospels, I don't think they understand the common thread from the beginning all the way to where we are now and what the gospel is since James, Peter and John all had specific things they mentioned about salvation too. So to select 1 or 2 verses and claim "this is the gospel" is doing God's word a disservice.

 

[Soyeong]

So, why are you not able to do those amazing miracles promised by Christ to Israel if it's all still applicable today? Can you answer that for us?

MM

There have been a number of suggested reasons, such as with Jesus giving authority to his disciples that he did not give to everyone.. The miracles that Jesus did were not showy in order to impress others and prove that he is the Messiah, but rather he consistently downplayed them and told people not to tell anyone. He didn't have a magician's flourish of passing a jar around so that everyone could see that it was just water before turning it into wine, but rather John 2:9 says that the master did not know where it had come from but that the servants knew. Rather, the miracles that he did were of him being moved with compassion in order to meet a need and they were foretastes of what will happen in the Messianic Era to validate his message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. In Matthew 11:20-24, Jesus denounced areas where miracles had been performed because they did not repent, so again the purpose of doing miracles was to validate his message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. In the Transfiguration, Jesus had his mission changed to his death being at hand. He long to bring the Messianic Era and could have brought it then and there if they had repented, but they did not. It might be that the Kingdom is not at close at hand as it once was and that miracles will become more common to validate its arrival when it is closer to approaching.

 

[Musicmaster]

I did not diverge at all. I gave you the example of the snake not killing Paul, and I gave you the example of miracles which was your main point.
I also explained the reason I personally could not expect to see miracles.
It seems to me you are dodging addressing the points made to you as to why Paul did not consider he was part of a different church to the Jerusalem church.;

As stated earlier, that example doesn't at all explain why YOU PERSONALLY cannot do those things right now if that gospel and those promises made to ALL who believe under that Gospel, WHY can you not do those things right now? Can you not understand this question? I'm not dodging anything. I said that I would answer your questions after you answered mine.

Please explain, as asked, why you cannot speak in diverse tongues, survive venom bites without infusions of antivenom, lay hands on the infirmed and they are healed, et al? Why?

You haven't answered that other than to point at feeble and beggarly examples of things and people not related. You are not related to those people or those things. Why can't YOU do the things quoted from the very words of Jesus if that Gospel and the associated miracles IF they are allegedly still in force right now? Do you lack the faith Jesus spoke of one having to have to be saved and thus doing those things? Please explain.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

There have been a number of suggested reasons, such as with Jesus giving authority to his disciples that he did not give to everyone..

Wrong. Let's do this again:

Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

There are no conditions on the empowerment to do ALL those things to ALL who believe as Jesus stated. The bait and switching doesn't explain your inability to do ALL those things if that Gospel is still in force today. Jesus' words stated that ALL who believed, "...them that believe...," that's all-inclusive, and yet you're trying to take it apart, which is a failure to adhere to the words of Christ. Why is that? Aren't you able to answer the question without the special pleadings to things unrelated?

The miracles that Jesus did were not showy in order to impress others and prove that he is the Messiah, but rather he consistently downplayed them and told people not to tell anyone.

Again, this is shuck-n-jive distraction from the questions asked.

He didn't have a magician's flourish of passing a jar around so that everyone could see that it was just water before turning it into wine, but rather John 2:9 says that the master did not know where it had come from but that the servants knew. Rather, the miracles that he did were of him being moved with compassion in order to meet a need and they were foretastes of what will happen in the Messianic Era to validate his message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. In Matthew 11:20-24, Jesus denounced areas where miracles had been performed because they did not repent, so again the purpose of doing miracles was to validate his message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. In the Transfiguration, Jesus had his mission changed to his death being at hand. He long to bring the Messianic Era and could have brought it then and there if they had repented, but they did not. It might be that the Kingdom is not at close at hand as it once was and that miracles will become more common to validate its arrival when it is closer to approaching.

So, in the end, you're saying that can't demonstrate anything as to why we should believe that gospel preached by Jesus and the twelve is still what should be followed today? Please just say so. All this dancing around doesn't prove anything. You choose to dodge the promises made specifically in relation to ALL who believe in Jesus' Gospel message taught by the twelve to Israel, and were saved under that Gospel of the Kingdom and able to do ALL those things.

This is why Westernized religion is so warped and littered with the leaven of hypocrisy and falsehoods. I've asked simple questions like the OP to which nobody seems to have answers in defense of what's popularly taught within Westernized religions today passed off as "Christianity." Everybody gravitates toward distractions that never explain away, with legitimacy, the ALL INCLUSIVENESS of ALL those things performed by ALL who believed under that Gospel within that dispensation.

Next?

MM

 

[Thaddeus]

As stated earlier, that example doesn't at all explain why YOU PERSONALLY cannot do those things right now if that gospel and those promises made to ALL who believe under that Gospel, WHY can you not do those things right now? Can you not understand this question? I'm not dodging anything. I said that I would answer your questions after you answered mine.

Please explain, as asked, why you cannot speak in diverse tongues, survive venom bites without infusions of antivenom, lay hands on the infirmed and they are healed, et al? Why?

You haven't answered that other than to point at feeble and beggarly examples of things and people not related. You are not related to those people or those things. Why can't YOU do the things quoted from the very words of Jesus if that Gospel and the associated miracles IF they are allegedly still in force right now? Do you lack the faith Jesus spoke of one having to have to be saved and thus doing those things? Please explain.

MM

Perhaps you missed my answer as to why I cannot do those things/miracles, here it is again:
Kathryn Khulman received an honourary doctorate. With tears streaming down her cheeks, she said:
''Anyone can see the power in their services I have seen in mine, but it costs everything''
I have never given everything, something I am ashamed of

How did Paul survive the snake wrapped around his wrist?

so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them. Acts19:12

As people were healed during Paul's ministry, I assume you must believe he was part of the kingdom gospel
Anyway, I note you refuse to address the points put to you

 

[Soyeong]

Wrong. Let's do this again:

Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

There are no conditions on the empowerment to do ALL those things to ALL who believe as Jesus stated. The bait and switching doesn't explain your inability to do ALL those things if that Gospel is still in force today. Jesus' words stated that ALL who believed, "...them that believe...," that's all-inclusive, and yet you're trying to take it apart, which is a failure to adhere to the words of Christ. Why is that? Aren't you able to answer the question without the special pleadings to things unrelated?




Again, this is shuck-n-jive distraction from the questions asked.



So, in the end, you're saying that can't demonstrate anything as to why we should believe that gospel preached by Jesus and the twelve is still what should be followed today? Please just say so. All this dancing around doesn't prove anything. You choose to dodge the promises made specifically in relation to ALL who believe in Jesus' Gospel message taught by the twelve to Israel, and were saved under that Gospel of the Kingdom and able to do ALL those things.

This is why Westernized religion is so warped and littered with the leaven of hypocrisy and falsehoods. I've asked simple questions like the OP to which nobody seems to have answers in defense of what's popularly taught within Westernized religions today passed off as "Christianity." Everybody gravitates toward distractions that never explain away, with legitimacy, the ALL INCLUSIVENESS of ALL those things performed by ALL who believed under that Gospel within that dispensation.

Next?

MM

It should be noted that the ending or Mark that you quoted is not found in the oldest manuscripts. I quoted verses that demonstrated that Paul also taught the Gospel of the Kingdom.