do Christians still sin? heard two different takes on this. am confused now

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Mar 8, 2013
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#41
The thief had a death-bed salvation; he acknowledged his sins, repented, and believed in Jesus thus was justified by faith at that moment then he died. Peradventure he was released and continued his criminal acts he would no longer be in a justified state for no one can serve two masters, no one can walk on the broad and narrow way simultaneously. You always bring up the thief on the cross argument to defend antinomianism.

One passage that refutes your doctrine is Jesus' teaching in Matt 7:16-20:
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
If one's fruit (works) is corrupt then they are indeed corrupt, not positionally incorrupt whilst practically corrupt - Jesus never taught such message. John also stated the same thing, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother (1 John 3:7, 10). Verse 10 does not say "...doeth not righteousness is of God positionally", but that is what you teach.

It is only those who obey God that have eternal salvation: Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Yes. We walk by faith by submitting our lives to God out of love because without faith it is impossible to please Him. Obedience is an indispensable component of belief in God, otherwise it's no different than the demons' belief (James 2:19).



Paul also told the Gentiles Christians that though they were under the liberty of grace and not the law they shouldn't use that liberty as a license to walk according to the flesh but love one another. If one loves their neighbour they won't desire to commit evil against them, if one loves God they will have disdain for sin, hunger and thirst for His word, and they will desire to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus. Galatians 5:13, 14 says For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Then He said if they do walk after the flesh they won't inherit the kingdom. Gal 5:19-21:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


He even told them that if they do not continue in the goodness of God they too will be cut off. Rom 11:22- Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Now who does Paul's teaching actually favour? One who is saying we ought to obey God because we have faith in Him or one who is saying we are under grace thus can sin every single day and remain justified?


It is your doctrine that encourages spiritual lukewarmness because one will hold that all they have to do is believe there is a God, a mental knowledge of God, but their conduct has absolutely no bearing on their salvation. That is what James was speaking against in his epistle...
James 2:17-19
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jesus told the churches in Revelation that he would spue them out because they were lukewarm, remove their candlestick if they don’t repent and do their first work. Those verses refute unconditional eternal security.



I don't deny the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith. The bible does teach imputed righteousness but licentious teachers have twisted this biblical doctrine to preach that because of Christ's righteousness one is positionally saved but practically enslaved in sin and thus obedience and godly living is thrown out the window.

There is righteousness that justifies the sinner and righteousness of Christian living. The latter is what these licentious teachers ignore and dismiss as self-righteousness, works salvation, legalism, etc. Apostle Paul established that one is justified by faith in Christ apart from the works of the law but also said we are servants of whom we obey whether obedience unto righteousness, we are workers together with God, and we are God's workmanship created in Christ unto good works. This is because God is cares about the godly living of those whom He has imputed righteousness upon. Imputed righteousness is simply how God justifies the repentant sinner at conversion. A sinner has no righteousness in and of themself (Isaiah 64:6, Rom 3:23, Rom 10:3) before God, they are dead in sin, and all their righteous deeds are as filthy rags thus Jesus, the Righteous Holy One, paid the price for our righteousness. Once the sinner repents and places their faith in Jesus' sacrifice for their sins they will be forgiven and declared righteous and receive the spotless robe of righteousness by faith (Rom 3:22, 2 Cor 5:21, Phil 3:9). However, now that they have that righteousness do they have it on daily? Does their conduct reflect that of one who is clad with the righteousness of Christ?

Yes, our righteousness comes through the atoning work of Christ but this does not negate our being pure in heart and godly by God’s grace. On the contrary licentious teachers say believers’ practicing godliness suggests a meritorious salvation when in fact the bible states that believers have to be righteous and that without holiness no man shall see God. The bible says that those who practice righteousness are righteous (1 John 3:7). The bible also says that believers are disciplined for sin so that they might be partakers of God's holiness and bear the peaceable fruit of righteousness (Heb 12:10-11) so in essence that righteousness was lacki
ng in order to be disciplined.
Phil 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God. We are enabled to bear the fruit of righteousness by abiding in Christ which entails total reliance on Him and such conduct brings glory unto God.

God's grace forgives future sins when they are repented of, yet you say God only forgives past sins because the sins your commit after conversion are not actually sins but just “physical failings”, then I ask why God chastises for physical failings that are not sins and you don’t respond. Your idea of grace is simply that it’s a leeway to sin and we can live in anarchy and still be assured of our salvation.

Jesus said those who hear and do His words are like the wise builder. James said we ought to be doers of God’s word and not hearers only. Why do you disconnect the doing from faith, Sir?
You are using verses talking about the kingdom of Heaven, forgetting that heaven, the hebrew word for it anyway, means 'heights' or 'enlightenment'.

Those who say 'lord, lord' aren't actually doing and producing that which they need to attain an enlightened state of mind about things.

Heaven isn't where men dwell in the afterlife. It's on the renewed Earth.

All men rise for the judgement, and the massively righteous (of Elijah and Israel proportions) go directly to 'Gan Eden', others go to Gehinom, 'passing through the flame' in regard to their works. Being shown themselves.

'and the fruits that thy soul lusted after shall be departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shall find them no more at all'.
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
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#42
2. You encourage complacence and offer a false security for those engaged in the sins of the flesh. You message convinces people not to worry to much about iniquity for God has them covered, thus there is no pressing need to flee the wrath of God or depart iniquity.

You don't have to say that you don't have to pick up your cross and deny yourself, your doctrine implies that you do not have to because it teaches that one can be in a justified state whilst one is not picking up their cross and is not denying themselves, and is not following Jesus. You cannot have your cake an eat it to.

Yes I have plenty of joy. Yet I do not take any joy in seeing so many people being deceived with the lie that they can sin and not surely die. People love that lie of Satan and they love his ministers who have disguised themselves as ministers of righteousness who tickle their ears with smooth sayings.
Sorry Skinski,

You do not understand what I have said and what I have continued to say. If one is living a life that includes fornication, homosexuality etc one better be darn well be wondering if they truly are in the faith,their actions do not agree with them. But on the other hand to say that when ones does fall IE all the saints in the Bible did so,that they were restored God did not let them get to far. He DID discipline them to bring them back. To say that God let them fall so far that they were unable to be restored is so far from the truth. They were and are His and He did not let go of them. Including David despite the fact that David was in gross rebellion and knew what He was doing. My point has been and always will be is that God did in fact have mercy on His children who were in sin till He brought them back to a place of repentance. He didn't kill David even though He could of.

Now someone who spits in God's face and walks away after knowing the truth,IE the son (the son did walk away of his own volition) there is no assurance that God will go after them to restore them and one doing so is playing with fire.

Where is the peace in your life? Do you have any assurance you are His or is the only thing you can point to is your "deeds"? See the problem comes when one tries to do the deeds to "prove" they have faith while one is still dead. Cleaning up the heart,doing the "right" things means nothing if one is still dead. If one is still dead the deeds are dead.
A lifeless spirit can not produce works that are alive. A dead spirit can only produce dead works. There is no way around it. David got it. It way he asked the Lord to create in him a clean heart and to renew a right spirit within him. He understood that the only he could have a clean heart and a right spirit was for God produce it in him,not that David did it.

People don't like the fact we are born dead and we need God to make us new because it's offensive. It offends one to realize we are that utterly dead and we need God to completely transform us,it's much better to our sense of sensibilities that somehow we can do it. Because this line of thinking must offend us

1 Corinthians

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, [SUP]23 [/SUP]but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, [SUP]24 [/SUP]but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called.Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. [SUP]28 [/SUP]God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, [SUP]29 [/SUP]so that no one may boast before him. [SUP]30 [/SUP]It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[SUP][d]


[/SUP]Paul is very clear that Jesus is our righteousness,holiness and redemption.


and again

[SUP] 7 [/SUP]But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[SUP][a][/SUP] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, [SUP]11 [/SUP]and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.


 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#43
Hi Bookends.

I liked your post.

Thought I might add that King David was under the law and therefore he could be charged with transgression/sin. But note in the scriptures below how God put away his sin. Also we can see how God disciplined King David in these scriptures too.

2Samuel 12:9-14
You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon.
Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.[SUP]'[/SUP] Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun."
So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord."

And Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die."



Now regarding repentance, when we receive Jesus we have repented and turned to God. Repentance is to have such regret for your previous actions that you do a complete turn around and stop doing them. That means repentance is once only. If we keep repenting over and over for the same offenses than that is not repentance.

Consider Heb 6 on repentance.
Heb 6:1-6
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

As we see here repentance is once only.
And repentance is of dead works of self-righteousness. This was mans rebellion against God seeking to establish their own righteousness and therefore not submitting to the righteousness of God.
So repentance is turning away from our dead works of self-righteousness and turning to God instead. So Christians have repented when we received Christ. After that there is no more repentance, as Heb 6 shows.

Repentance is not referring to our physical failings that some claim we need to constantly repent over.
While I agree salvation only requires 1 authentic confession God for our sins and rebellion against God, I disagree on your point where no more repentance is required for our communion with God. I say you can have an authentic confession, and still struggle with sin. As before you did not struggle with sin, but now you do.

Can you imagine if I apologized just once to my wife for whatever, and just assumed that was enough for all the future infractions? I don't think our relationship with thrive with that attitude.

Sounds like you are preaching sinless perfectionism here, are you?
 
H

haz

Guest
#44
While I agree salvation only requires 1 authentic confession God for our sins and rebellion against God, I disagree on your point where no more repentance is required for our communion with God. I say you can have an authentic confession, and still struggle with sin. As before you did not struggle with sin, but now you do.

Can you imagine if I apologized just once to my wife for whatever, and just assumed that was enough for all the future infractions? I don't think our relationship with thrive with that attitude.

Sounds like you are preaching sinless perfectionism here, are you?
Yes, I am speaking of "sinless perfectionism".
But, to clarify, I am not referring to the physical. The physical will never be perfect. But for Christians our body is dead (by faith) because of sin anyway, Rom 8:10. It was crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6.
And remember our righteousness is not determined by works of the law. Hence we should not judge righteousness by how good our physical lifestyle is.
Instead, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

I refer to "sinless perfectionism" of the new creation in Christ. I speak of our position in Christ that we have through believing in him. And as we've been justified in Christ, nobody can lay any charges of sin against us.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Believing in Jesus we have been sanctified.
Heb 10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Believing in Jesus we're perfected forever.
Heb 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

And believing in Jesus we have "ceased from sin".
1Pet 4:1
"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (crucified), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) hath ceased from sin;

We both differ in understanding of "sin" and it's application to Christians.

You see sin in terms of bad physical behavior. Hence you still see that Christians sin based on wrongful physical behavior.

Whereas I see sin in terms of rebellion against God through unbelief in Jesus.
Hence I see that believers cannot sin, 1John 3:9.

Note how someone makes themselves a sinner in Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor.(Sinner)

So scripture tells us that we make ourselves a sinner when we rebel against God by seeking to establish our own righteousness through works of the law. And there are still many professing Christians today who do this. They mix grace with works of the law. And this cannot be, Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.
 
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A

AmmiAmmiel

Guest
#45
Only when Christ returns and glorifies our bodies will we be unable to sin. Until then, it is inevitable that we will continue to sin.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#46
Yes, I am speaking of "sinless perfectionism".
But, to clarify, I am not referring to the physical. The physical will never be perfect. But for Christians our body is dead (by faith) because of sin anyway, Rom 8:10. It was crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6.
And remember our righteousness is not determined by works of the law. Hence we should not judge righteousness by how good our physical lifestyle is.
Instead, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

I refer to "sinless perfectionism" of the new creation in Christ. I speak of our position in Christ that we have through believing in him. And as we've been justified in Christ, nobody can lay any charges of sin against us.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Believing in Jesus we have been sanctified.
Heb 10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Believing in Jesus we're perfected forever.
Heb 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

And believing in Jesus we have "ceased from sin".
1Pet 4:1
"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (crucified), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) hath ceased from sin;

We both differ in understanding of "sin" and it's application to Christians.

You see sin in terms of bad physical behavior. Hence you still see that Christians sin based on wrongful physical behavior.

Whereas I see sin in terms of rebellion against God through unbelief in Jesus.
Hence I see that believers cannot sin, 1John 3:9.

Note how someone makes themselves a sinner in Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor.(Sinner)

So scripture tells us that we make ourselves a sinner when we rebel against God by seeking to establish our own righteousness through works of the law. And there are still many professing Christians today who do this. They mix grace with works of the law. And this cannot be, Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.
Thank you for your perspective on this, I also believe that all that Christ is has be imputed to those IN Christ. Amen (including being Lord over the sabbath).
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#47
Sorry Skinski,

You do not understand what I have said and what I have continued to say. If one is living a life that includes fornication, homosexuality etc one better be darn well be wondering if they truly are in the faith,their actions do not agree with them. But on the other hand to say that when ones does fall IE all the saints in the Bible did so,that they were restored God did not let them get to far. He DID discipline them to bring them back. To say that God let them fall so far that they were unable to be restored is so far from the truth. They were and are His and He did not let go of them. Including David despite the fact that David was in gross rebellion and knew what He was doing. My point has been and always will be is that God did in fact have mercy on His children who were in sin till He brought them back to a place of repentance. He didn't kill David even though He could of.

Now someone who spits in God's face and walks away after knowing the truth,IE the son (the son did walk away of his own volition) there is no assurance that God will go after them to restore them and one doing so is playing with fire.

Where is the peace in your life? Do you have any assurance you are His or is the only thing you can point to is your "deeds"? See the problem comes when one tries to do the deeds to "prove" they have faith while one is still dead. Cleaning up the heart,doing the "right" things means nothing if one is still dead. If one is still dead the deeds are dead.
A lifeless spirit can not produce works that are alive. A dead spirit can only produce dead works. There is no way around it. David got it. It way he asked the Lord to create in him a clean heart and to renew a right spirit within him. He understood that the only he could have a clean heart and a right spirit was for God produce it in him,not that David did it.

People don't like the fact we are born dead and we need God to make us new because it's offensive. It offends one to realize we are that utterly dead and we need God to completely transform us,it's much better to our sense of sensibilities that somehow we can do it. Because this line of thinking must offend us

1 Corinthians

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?[SUP]21 [/SUP]For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,[SUP]23 [/SUP]but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,[SUP]24 [/SUP]but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.[SUP]25 [/SUP]For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called.Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.[SUP]27 [/SUP]But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.[SUP]28 [/SUP]God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,[SUP]29 [/SUP]so that no one may boast before him.[SUP]30 [/SUP]It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[SUP][d]


[/SUP]Paul is very clear that Jesus is our righteousness,holiness and redemption.


and again

[SUP] 7 [/SUP]But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[SUP][a][/SUP] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, [SUP]11 [/SUP]and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
Amen, Sarah. ♥
The Spirit gives life.
The flesh profits nothing.
 

SparkleEyes

Senior Member
Mar 23, 2013
771
21
18
#48
Yes Yes Yes. Christians (born again / saved whatever your term) sin. We all fall short every day. Even your pastor(s) sin - don't let them lead you to believe otherwise. :cool: